Lost Films

[HerrSchreck]

In mine, the easter egg was so like-- >*phew*< -- y'know, like, heavy, that it caused the disc to be all lopsided & wobbly and make a sound like a surgical electric bone saw against an occipital-parietal chunka skull.

In all seriousness just to keep a half-ass attempt at a tab on the guy (it's been so long I'm not blowing my cover anyhoo), I sent him a What's-Up PM, to see if and when it would leave my outbox, showing that he'd at least logged in.

No dice. Still in my OUtbox... and his last visit to the forum was the day after his last post in 2007.

Of course he could have changed IP's (trusting that the chris has kept an eye out for his IP-- even if under another userID-- unless he banned him, which I doubt)... or had an alternate IP/username.. and it was Barmy/Armond White all along.

[Tommaso]

I found it both nice and somewhat embarassing (for us) that Bergstrom recounted that whole affair in her book in the Fox set. But I liked the way how she insisted that one should never give up hope that the film eventually might be found somewhere, given that it had very wide international distribution at the time. I don't know, but that "Metropolis"-find in Buenos Aires seems to be an indication that she might be right.

[Dylan]

If this was a hoax, my biggest question is why somebody from the UK would pick Tacoma, WA of all places to base this discovery in. Unless he just spun a globe, closed his eyes and put his finger somewhere when it stopped, this is way too random to not arouse suspicion of some slight truth. Not as random as if he'd said Spokane, WA (my hometown, also where Blue Velvet is partially based on), but still...

[HerrSchreck]

Sort of reminded me of the way the Brit 70's teenybop group from Edinburgh, Scotland decided on their names, after deciding that they wanted to sound American to connect with the US market. Unable to decide, they threw a dart at a map... which landed on a certain town in Michigan-- and thus was born the Bay City Rollers. Interesting anectdote the Bay City dart was actually the second try at a throw; the first zap hit Arkansas... and they didn't quite want to be the Arkansas City Rollers.

[Metropolisforever_2]

Since they don't have their own thread yet, this thread is for the discussion and preservation of those buried treasures that have yet to be dug up. Many silent films were destroyed by the studios, since they apparently had no commercial appeal. It's not always so black-and-white, though. Some films are partially lost, some have lost soundtracks, and many are missing scenes (including scenes that were cut). In fact, I'm sure most "lost" films aren't actually lost - they just haven't been reported yet. This is evidenced by Ray Carney's successful search for John Cassavetes' early 1957 version of Shadows (1959) - if they can find that, I'm sure they can find, let's say, 4 Devils, if they really looked for it. Many "lost" films have been reported to be in the possessions of film collectors, but, for some reason, nobody seems to care - quite sad, if you ask me.

Historically significant films such as The Story of the Kelly Gang (Charles Tait, 1906) and El Apóstol (Quirino Cristiani, 1917) have not been found yet. If, by any chance, you know of the whereabouts of a "lost" film - well, tell us first, and then contact a film preservation society.

Again, this thread is for the discussion and preservation of "lost" films.

[MichaelB]

Many "lost" films have been reported to be in the possessions of film collectors, but, for some reason, nobody seems to care - quite sad, if you ask me.

Have you ever tried negotiating with a film collector? Believe me, archives most certainly do care, but they have no legal powers to compel a collector to hand over a film, especially if the rights situation is murky (as is often the case). And neither do they have a substantial acquisition budget - so they're usually reliant on the collector's generosity.

[Saturnome]

El Apóstol (Quirino Cristiani, 1917)

I think there's much doubt this ever was a feature length film, right?

Otherwise I'm sure some films will suddenly pop up by magic when their copyright will fall.

[Tommaso]

I'm sure they can find, let's say, 4 Devils, if they really looked for it. Many "lost" films have been reported to be in the possessions of film collectors, but, for some reason, nobody seems to care - quite sad, if you ask me.

Well, it seems that in the case of "4 Devils" they did look for it, if one believes Bergstrom's account in the book accompanying the Murnau-Borzage set. There is that strange story that in the early 70s Rohauer claimed he had a print in his possession and used that claim for some general negotiations with Fox; when these fell through, Rohauer then stated that he did not have the film. This whole story sounds very dubious to me; why would someone like Rohauer, who clearly wasn't an amateur when it came to film collecting or identification make up such a story if he never had a print? Somehow I have the feeling that the Rohauer trail needs further investigation.

[Metropolisforever_2]

Many "lost" films have been reported to be in the possessions of film collectors, but, for some reason, nobody seems to care - quite sad, if you ask me.

Have you ever tried negotiating with a film collector? Believe me, archives most certainly do care, but they have no legal powers to compel a collector to hand over a film, especially if the rights situation is murky (as is often the case). And neither do they have a substantial acquisition budget - so they're usually reliant on the collector's generosity.

I was actually talking about the dead film collectors, like Abe Yoshishige, who reportedly had Arirang (1926) in his collection.

[Michael Kerpan]

I was actually talking about the dead film collectors, like Abe Yoshishige, who reportedly had Arirang (1926) in his collection.

As of last report I read -- None of the rare and valuable items supposedly held by this collector have materialized so far. Most that has been found is of minor importance (at most).

[MichaelB]

I was actually talking about the dead film collectors, like Abe Yoshishige, who reportedly had Arirang (1926) in his collection.

I can't speak for this particular case, but dead collectors are often far harder to deal with than living ones - because their estates often aren't bothered about the cultural value of their collection and are only interested in realising as much revenue as possible from it.

And since film archives usually have limited acquisition budgets (storage and preservation costs will eat up most of their income), negotiations are often deadlocked from the start.

[Michael Kerpan]

I was actually talking about the dead film collectors, like Abe Yoshishige, who reportedly had Arirang (1926) in his collection.

I can't speak for this particular case, but dead collectors are often far harder to deal with than living ones - because their estates often aren't bothered about the cultural value of their collection and are only interested in realising as much revenue as possible from it.

And since film archives usually have limited acquisition budgets (storage and preservation costs will eat up most of their income), negotiations are often deadlocked from the start.

In this case, the collector's archives all went to the national government (due to the lack of any heirs whatsoever). Alas, none of the claimed rarities have shown up (in the mass of poorly stored and cataloged materials).

[Metropolisforever_2]

The Japanese government never told anyone whether Arirang was found in the collection.

Anyways, I am 100% certain that 4 Devils still exists.

1. TV Guide has a review of it, so they must have seen it.

2. Murnau expert Lotte Eisner has claimed that the original negative is still in the Fox archives.

3. As mentioned above, Rohauer claimed to have the film in his collection at one point.

Again, there is no way that all copies of 4 Devils have been destroyed.

[skuhn8]

The Japanese government never told anyone whether Arirang was found in the collection.

Anyways, I am 100% certain that 4 Devils still exists.

1. TV Guide has a review of it, so they must have seen it.

2. Murnau expert Lotte Eisner has claimed that the original negative is still in the Fox archives.

3. As mentioned above, Rohauer claimed to have the film in his collection at one point.

Again, there is no way that all copies of 4 Devils have been destroyed.

All past tense, so I'm going to go on a ledge and say less than 100% on 'still exists'. But my hopes are there along with yours.

[PimpPanda]

TV Guide?

[Antoine Doinel]

Oh god, are we really going to travel down the 4 Devils road again? Metropolis 2, you may want to read this before continuing. Also, if you're an alt of 125100 --- nice try.

[Metropolisforever_2]

Oh god, are we really going to travel down the 4 Devils road again? Metropolis 2, you may want to read this before continuing. Also, if you're an alt of 125100 --- nice try.

Yes, I've seen that thread, but I have no idea what all this "alt" and "rat" nonsense is about. I'm just trying to have a discussion, m'kay?

TV Guide?

Yes, it's twue.

They vividly describe the film, which means they must have seen it... and I seriously doubt the reviewer was alive in 1929.

[Tommaso]

I seriously doubt that those people who write reviews for TV guides or journals (online or not) have actually seen the films in question, relying on generally available information instead. The only thing that points to this case being different are the dismissive words the reviewer finds for the film in comparison to other Murnaus. Of course these might come from some very old review, too, but you would hardly find such a decisive opinion in any newer book about Murnau, for obvious reasons.

[Jonathan S]

There is that strange story that in the early 70s Rohauer claimed he had a print in his possession and used that claim for some general negotiations with Fox; when these fell through, Rohauer then stated that he did not have the film. This whole story sounds very dubious to me; why would someone like Rohauer, who clearly wasn't an amateur when it came to film collecting or identification make up such a story if he never had a print? Somehow I have the feeling that the Rohauer trail needs further investigation.

Although I know nothing about Raymond Rohauer and 4 Devils, I do know that he claimed to own other silents then later admitted he didn't. A close friend of mine was researching the career of a major silent (and sound) era star for a biography in the 1970s or early 1980s. He contacted Rohauer who claimed to own prints of two of the star's otherwise unobtainable silents and offered to show them to my friend if he came to New York. The flight cost him a lot of money he could ill afford but he really needed to see these films. After a protracted lunch, during which Rohauer probed for film collector contacts and other information, my friend suggested they start the screening. It was only then that RR dropped the bombshell he didn't actually have the films. From what I've read about Rohauer, this sounds typical of his behaviour and personality.

[skuhn8]

Rohauer has been dead for 20 years--what became of the 10,000 film collection?

[HerrSchreck]

Douris Group-- much of it's better end went into Kino's Avant Garde collections, both vol's 1 and 2 (thanks to him, that fabulously high quality, corrected-speed uncut print of Menilmontant). PLus many silents like the Paul Leni masterpiece Waxworks (emphatically NOT from the FWMS), early sound works like Roland West's incredibly bizarre (and adventurous, not to mention sinfully entertaining) Alibi.

Interesting contributions to vital releases from otherwise 'official' release prints-- like the little gaps plugged in Orlac's Hande... restored by the FWMS yet their restoration was missing a decent sized chunk of the film which was plugged by a good quality 16mm export print held by Douris/Rohauer's group, corresponding portions of which were telecine'd and scissored-in at the proper points of the original transfer provided from Germany, in a nice extra-mile custom job by Kino.

[skuhn8]

Douris Group-- much of it's better end went into Kino's Avant Garde collections, both vol's 1 and 2 (thanks to him, that fabulously high quality, corrected-speed uncut print of Menilmontant). PLus many silents like the Paul Leni masterpiece Waxworks (emphatically NOT from the FWMS), early sound works like Roland West's incredibly bizarre (and adventurous, not to mention sinfully entertaining) Alibi.

Interesting contributions to vital releases from otherwise 'official' release prints-- like the little gaps plugged in Orlac's Hande... restored by the FWMS yet their restoration was missing a decent sized chunk of the film which was plugged by a good quality 16mm export print held by Douris/Rohauer's group, corresponding portions of which were telecine'd and scissored-in at the proper points of the original transfer provided from Germany, in a nice extra-mile custom job by Kino.

It would seem that Kino's marketing team just woke up....good morning!

[HerrSchreck]

See?-- why ya gotta be a pain inna ass like dat for skuhn? I thought we was like all tight 'n shit.

I'm justa saying-- the only place I really see the Douris/Rohauer name mentioned on dvd's is Kino-- and you askedededid. The Kino line and Rohauer's collection seem to be an ideal match.

[MichaelB]

I seriously doubt that those people who write reviews for TV guides or journals (online or not) have actually seen the films in question, relying on generally available information instead.

I completely agree, not least because I cut my film-writing teeth writing authoritative-looking programme notes for rep cinemas. I'd have to write about 100-150 per month, and of course I hadn't seen everything (and couldn't possibly see everything in the time available) - so I'd dig out two or three other reviews and essentially fuse their factual content together, rewriting the end result in the house style.

There was no intent to deceive, by the way - these "reviews" were unsigned and intended purely for promotional purposes.

The only thing that points to this case being different are the dismissive words the reviewer finds for the film in comparison to other Murnaus. Of course these might come from some very old review, too, but you would hardly find such a decisive opinion in any newer book about Murnau, for obvious reasons.

My pieces would proffer "opinions", but they'd be sourced from multiple reviews where there was a clear consensus. I'd be astounded if TV Guide didn't operate along exactly the same principles.

2. Murnau expert Lotte Eisner has claimed that the original negative is still in the Fox archives.

Is this based on her visiting the Fox archives and personally examining their collection, or second-hand rumour? I'd put money on the latter.

[Zazou dans le Metro]

2. Murnau expert Lotte Eisner has claimed that the original negative is still in the Fox archives.

Is this based on her visiting the Fox archives and personally examining their collection, or second-hand rumour? I'd put money on the latter.

In her Murnau book she merely states that a negative exists at Fox (without any further corroboration) but no print so her observations are based on a pre-war viewing and a translated unannotated script.