John Ford

[GringoTex]

I've rewritten about forty percent of my book on John Ford and anyone may download it (with hundreds of color frame enlargements)

Nobody writes better about John Ford films.

[denti alligator]

In my (very slow) chronological teck through Ford's filmography I just watched The Fugitive. I found it almost impossible to watch. It didn't even feel like a Ford movie. Sentimental in the worst way, insufferable soundtrack, miscast Henry Fonda ...

[Elephant]

In my (very slow) chronological teck through Ford's filmography I just watched The Fugitive. I found it almost impossible to watch. It didn't even feel like a Ford movie. Sentimental in the worst way, insufferable soundtrack, miscast Henry Fonda ...

Same here. I tried watching it a couple weeks ago and just gave up around the hour mark. The excruciatingly obvious metaphors, the plodding pacing, and dear god, the sentimentality. Ford is a phenomenal filmmaker--one of my favorites--but as others have mentioned, when he's bad, he's really bad.

[tryavna]

although why it wasn't included in the Ford-Wayne collection to complete the cavalry trilogy is perplexing

It's quite simply a rights issue. Warner Home Video owns the rights to the first two, but not Rio Grande. I hope that Lionsgate (?) will get busy on a nice edition of it soon -- as well as Quiet Man.

denti alligator wrote:

In my (very slow) chronological teck through Ford's filmography I just watched The Fugitive. I found it almost impossible to watch. It didn't even feel like a Ford movie. Sentimental in the worst way, insufferable soundtrack, miscast Henry Fonda ...

Same here. I tried watching it a couple weeks ago and just gave up around the hour mark. The excruciatingly obvious metaphors, the plodding pacing, and dear god, the sentimentality. Ford is a phenomenal filmmaker--one of my favorites--but as others have mentioned, when he's bad, he's really bad.

I guess we all caught the same TCM broadcast. I agree that The Fugitive drags. I suppose it's the very last entry in Ford's self-consciously-artsy mode of filmmaking until the 1960s. But I do find much of it interesting, and I definitely think it feels like a Ford movie: the Catholic symbolism is very much in tune with what you see in The Informer. (Heck, even the titles are similar.) The best aspect of the film is surely Gabriel Figueroa's beautiful cinematography -- just before he started collaborating with Bunuel. I suspect that working with Figueroa had a major impact on the cinematography of Fort Apache, Ford's next project. But I also really like Pedro Armendariz's performance and the long silent sequence that immediately follows the prologue spoken by Ward Bond. The heavy-handed allegorical qualities are probably as much due to Graham Greene as they are to Ford, though. I believe this was the first of Greene's "conflicted Catholic" novels -- unless It's a Battlefield counts.

Incidentally, there's a wonderful circularity at play behind the scenes of The Fugitive -- historically speaking. Greene was inspired to write The Power and the Glory (upon which Ford's film is based) while he was in hiding in Mexico, trying to avoid a libel suit for his infamous review of John Ford's Shirley Temple movie Wee Willie Winkie. (Greene's review hinted at the sexualization of Temple by 20th Century Fox for the delectation of middle-aged men.)

[ellipsis7]

Ford was basically an in-house director for Fox from the mid twenties to the mid forties (see Ford at Fox box set), also working for RKO and a several others during the same period... He then kinda freelanced with independent producers the cavalry trilogy coming first (they were bankable) partially to get his passion project THE QUIET MAN made... His 4 director Oscars for features were 2 Fox - HOW GREEN IS MY VALLEY & THE GRAPES OF WRATH - and 2 Irish themed - THE INFORMER and THE QUIET MAN... Interestingly he made no Westerns from the silent 3 BAD MEN (1926) to STAGECOACH (1939) - 13 years...

MURNAU had a huge influence on the 'arty' Ford, from their mutual Fox days - the more mannered and expressionist and Catholic Ford is thus evident especially in THE INFORMER and THE FUGITIVE...

But this style was not by any means the only strings to his bow... At his greatest he was a total poet of the cinema - WAGONMASTER (a favourite film of Ford's along with the SUN SHINES BRIGHT) at best dissolves plot in the face of stunning visual imagerly, but also presents bizarrely gratingly authentically affencionately maverickly (choose your own adjective) the bloody Mormon choir trilling on the soundtrack until you're forced to like them or at least be indifferent to them... Such is Ford's 'love him or hate him' greatness...

[Tommaso]

I've just seen "Wagon Master", and as this film is little known (at least in Europe), I didn't have any high expectations for it; thus I'm happy that it not only quite blew me away, but that it seems many people here share my liking for this great odd film. Ellipsis' choice of this film as an example of how Ford could be a "total poet of the cinema" seems most to the point, especially if you use 'poetry' in the sense of 'lyrical and contemplating' as opposed to 'prose' in the sense of something being concerned with 'action' (a crude way of putting it, I know).

The film to me seems less concerned with narrative and action than with meditating on the possibilities of different people coming together. Even the outlaws, at least initially, seem to have a chance to become a part of that congregation of people (or: the people) that is that mormon community. What makes this film so fascinating is its archaic quality; the old woman blowing that horn (what a sound!) gives one the impression we're not just seeing a group of mormons, but it stirs archetypal images of the mass migration of peoples in medieval Europe or even the biblical Exodus; people on the way to some promised land. Of course this is not something unusual in Ford, but I couldn't help thinking that it effortlessly sums up a lot of the themes and motives that Ford's westerns had been concerned with since the mid 20s, much more so than most of the films with Wayne.

But as usual I have a hard time actually defining how exactly Ford achieves this mythic quality; I assume in this case it has a lot to do with the short but extremely well composed close-ups of the various characters, and the use of the songs on the soundtrack, which may be seen as the equivalent of a singing congregation in a church perhaps. I'm much impressed, despite sometimes only average acting. Give me this over "Rio Grande" anytime!

I agree with the words in the "Ford on DVD"-thread on the problems with the R2's transfer, indeed probably due to bad NTSC/PAL conversion; but I don't find it unwatchable. If there isn't much movement in the frame, image tends to be quite sharp and detailed, for instance. Otherwise there's indeed a certain fuzziness to the image and some occasional strobing/chroma, but it's not extremely distracting in any case. But a good reminder that CC is very lean on Ford (only "Young Mr. Lincoln" to be precise); this film and "Quiet Man" should have first priority if nobody else are doing them in R1.

[sidehacker]

Don't forget The Suns Shines Bright, which has no DVD release at all. Anyone know what's up with the rights on this one?

[ellipsis7]

Don't forget The Suns Shines Bright, which has no DVD release at all. Anyone know what's up with the rights on this one?

The ident at the head of my imperfect VHS recording taken off the BBC from the early 1990s shows 'A Republic Production'....

[Titus]

Don't forget The Suns Shines Bright, which has no DVD release at all. Anyone know what's up with the rights on this one?

There actually is a Spanish DVD of it that was released earlier this year. I haven't heard a word about its quality though. I've been meaning to pick it up, but the dvdgo shipping rates keep scaring me off.

[HerrSchreck]

I've rewritten about forty percent of my book on John Ford and anyone may download it (with hundreds of color frame enlargements):

RapidShare 19MB PDF

Should pop in more, Tag.

A.O. Scott reels off a nice little vid piece about Grapes of Wrath. It's pretty simple and straightforward, but it's honest and hits all the right notes. Enough to where I forget that I find Scott annoying.

[ellipsis7]

Don't forget The Suns Shines Bright, which has no DVD release at all. Anyone know what's up with the rights on this one?

There actually is a Spanish DVD of it that was released earlier this year. I haven't heard a word about its quality though. I've been meaning to pick it up, but the dvdgo shipping rates keep scaring me off.

THE SUN SHINES BRIGHT screens this Thursday 04 November @ 13.40 on UK's Channel Four, (available terrestrially and on satellite via Sky...)...

[Yojimbo]

Anyone wanting to see a young Gene Tierney should just watch Shanghai Gesture or Laura.

Or they could just watch her first film, Lang's excellent the Return of Frank James

Don't forget Leave Her to Heaven, Gene Tierney in glorious technicolor, and a fantastic performance to boot.

Getting back to Ford, anyone have thoughts on The Sun Shines Bright? I didn't think it was a great film, Stepin Fetchit is at the very least an acquired taste, and the mix of slapstick and sentiment is somewhat disjointed. What stood out for me was the sequence with the funeral procession. It just comes out of nowhere and it's absolutely haunting, it might be the best sequence I've seen a Ford movie. It's a perfect realization of sound, tempo, atmosphere, and setting, and the effect is stunning.

I agree with you on that scene: arguably it is the one scene in the film that more than any other scene in the movie help make it a special favourite Ford of mine.
The problem with 'Sun', as with 'The Prisoner of Shark Island', another underrated Ford film, is the racist tone: not as bad as 'Birth Of A Nation' but still to some degree disturbing.
But I think with both of these films, as he does with his great Western Masterpieces, like 'My Darling Clementine', is that he is evoking a 'spirit of the age' through rose-tinted glasses, perhaps, but wholly consistent within themselves

[Yojimbo]

I've just seen "Wagon Master", and as this film is little known (at least in Europe), I didn't have any high expectations for it; thus I'm happy that it not only quite blew me away, but that it seems many people here share my liking for this great odd film. Ellipsis' choice of this film as an example of how Ford could be a "total poet of the cinema" seems most to the point, especially if you use 'poetry' in the sense of 'lyrical and contemplating' as opposed to 'prose' in the sense of something being concerned with 'action' (a crude way of putting it, I know).

The film to me seems less concerned with narrative and action than with meditating on the possibilities of different people coming together. Even the outlaws, at least initially, seem to have a chance to become a part of that congregation of people (or: the people) that is that mormon community. What makes this film so fascinating is its archaic quality; the old woman blowing that horn (what a sound!) gives one the impression we're not just seeing a group of mormons, but it stirs archetypal images of the mass migration of peoples in medieval Europe or even the biblical Exodus; people on the way to some promised land. Of course this is not something unusual in Ford, but I couldn't help thinking that it effortlessly sums up a lot of the themes and motives that Ford's westerns had been concerned with since the mid 20s, much more so than most of the films with Wayne.

But as usual I have a hard time actually defining how exactly Ford achieves this mythic quality; I assume in this case it has a lot to do with the short but extremely well composed close-ups of the various characters, and the use of the songs on the soundtrack, which may be seen as the equivalent of a singing congregation in a church perhaps. I'm much impressed, despite sometimes only average acting. Give me this over "Rio Grande" anytime!

I agree with the words in the "Ford on DVD"-thread on the problems with the R2's transfer, indeed probably due to bad NTSC/PAL conversion; but I don't find it unwatchable. If there isn't much movement in the frame, image tends to be quite sharp and detailed, for instance. Otherwise there's indeed a certain fuzziness to the image and some occasional strobing/chroma, but it's not extremely distracting in any case. But a good reminder that CC is very lean on Ford (only "Young Mr. Lincoln" to be precise); this film and "Quiet Man" should have first priority if nobody else are doing them in R1.

Montparnasse in France have a wonderful version of this, Tomasso
its arguably my #3 favourite Ford Western, after 'Clementine', and 'Stagecoach': similar poetic feel to it as 'Clementine', and with just sufficient undercurrent of menace to avoid any overdoses of saccharine

[Yojimbo]

My John Ford Rankings

Unassailable Masterpieces
My Darling Clementine (1946) Fox (R1 & R2) (My No. 1 Western of all time)
Stagecoach (1939) Universal (R2) Warner (R1)
The Grapes of Wrath (1940) Fox (R1 & R2)

Level Two: Great Ford films/personal favourites, but not quite top rank
They Were Expendable (1945) Warner (R1 & R2)
Wagon Master (1950) Universal (R2)
The Quiet Man (1952) Republic (R1) Universal (R2)
The Long Voyage Home (1940) Warner (R1)
Fort Apache (1948) Universal (R2) Warner (R1)
The Sun Shines Bright (1953)
The Searchers (1956) Warner (R1 & R2)

Level Three: Great Entertainments/Almost Great Films
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962) Paramount (R1 & R2)
Young Mr. Lincoln (1939) Criterion (R1) Fox (R1) Optimum (R2)
How Green Was My Valley (1941) Fox (R1 & 2)
The Lost Patrol (1934) Warner (R1)
The Prisoner of Shark Island (1936) Fox (R1) MoC (R2)

Level Four: Enjoyable Enough
The Hurricane (1937)
Drums Along the Mohawk (1939) Fox (R1) Optimum (R2)
The Informer (1935) Universal (R2) Warner (R1)
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949) Universal (R2) Warner (R1)
Rio Grande (1950) Republic (R1) Universal (R2)

Level Five: Flawed/Sub-Par/Misfires
The Fugitive (1947) Universal (R2)
The Horse Soldiers (1959) Fox (R2) MGM (R1 & R2)
Cheyenne Autumn (1964) Warner (R1)
Two Rode Together (1961) Sony (R2)
7 Women (1966)

Level Six: Fuhgeddaboutit
Mister Roberts (1955) Warner (R1)

the remainder I either haven't seen or can't remember enough about to rank them, although I'd be very surprised if I ranked any of those in the top two tiers

[HerrSchreck]

You must not have grabbed Ford At Fox, because you're missing Pilgrimage, which easly can sit alongside Clementine & Wrath. And the notable absence of all silents, and light comedy-dramas like Judge Priest and Steamboat Round the Bend. What's most fascinating is watching Ford force himself to engage with scripts or casts he wasn't right crazy about, yet looked under the text and produced a very good film nonetheless.. here I'm thinking Four Men And A Prayer, Wee Willie Winkie. These are diametrical opposites of films like The World Movues On, Tobacco Road, etc, where he couldn't overcome his boredom or active distaste for the text/cast.

[domino harvey]

You should probably see more than 1/5 of John Ford's output before making a ranking list

[Yojimbo]

You must not have grabbed Ford At Fox, because you're missing Pilgrimage, which easly can sit alongside Clementine & Wrath. And the notable absence of all silents, and light comedy-dramas like Judge Priest and Steamboat Round the Bend. What's most fascinating is watching Ford force himself to engage with scripts or casts he wasn't right crazy about, yet looked under the text and produced a very good film nonetheless.. here I'm thinking Four Men And A Prayer, Wee Willie Winkie. These are diametrical opposites of films like The World Movues On, Tobacco Road, etc, where he couldn't overcome his boredom or active distaste for the text/cast.

No, I didn't get 'Ford at Fox': partly for price reasons, and partly for having 'Clementine' and 'Wrath', for example already.
I've now ordered the Silent mini box-set, and may well also get the 'Comedies' set, although as I mentioned in another thread, I'm just wondering whether Will Rogers will hold up
(although, given that I love 'The Sun Shines Bright', which is supposedly a near remake of the Rogers vehicle, 'Judge Priest', I probably likely will.)

But 'Pilgrimage' I've never even heard mentioned before: always great when you chance upon great films by favourite directors
(I was surprised at just how good 'Prisoner of Shark Island' was,when I re-watched it recently, although the depiction of the black soldiers was distasteful)

You should probably see more than 1/5 of John Ford's output before making a ranking list

"So many films, so little time!"
But tell me what films that I've missed out on that you would rank in the top two tiers, even if you don't, essentially, agree with too much of the relative rankings in my list.

[HerrSchreck]

re the race thing (beyond Stepin Fetchit, who I think just cracked Ford the fuck up like so many other of his bummy/scruffy/wacky acting troupe which goes on appearing thru so much of his canon):

Unfortunately Ford, prior to the Murnau epiphany/obsession/worship, was, like most filmmakers (including Murnau), heavily influenced by Griffith. In Ford's case he took his worship a step further than most, and remade Birth of a Nation in spirit with a couple of his titles. Most notably Shark Island.

[Yojimbo]

re the race thing (beyond Stepin Fetchit, who I think just cracked Ford the fuck up like so many other of his bummy/scruffy/wacky acting troupe which goes on appearing thru so much of his canon):

Unfortunately Ford, prior to the Murnau epiphany/obsession/worship, was, like most filmmakers (including Murnau), heavily influenced by Griffith. In Ford's case he took his worship a step further than most, and remade Birth of a Nation in spirit with a couple of his titles. Most notably Shark Island.

I always reckoned it was partly because of the popular recounting of history that Ford had been brought up in: or because, as with his portrayal of the Indians, that he needed to portray everything in 'black and white'.
Although its distasteful in 'Prisoner', I think there's more of a warm glow in 'Sun Shines Bright' in his evocation of the era, so that its more easily tolerated.

Since you mention Murnau, it seems to me that Gregg Toland was the perfect cinematographer to assist Ford in recreating a Murnau look: certainly as evidenced by 'Long Voyage Home' and 'Grapes of Wrath'

[GringoTex]

I've now ordered the Silent mini box-set, and may well also get the 'Comedies' set, although as I mentioned in another thread, I'm just wondering whether Will Rogers will hold up

Hold up to what? The Rogers films are not mugging "actors classics" as Sarris defined the term: they are pure Ford and construct teetering-on-the-edge communities that is as good as anything in his more famous works. Steamboat Around the Bend, especially, sets a stormy tone beneath the surface. The twisted Americana in the steamboat show rivals anything Lynch has come up with.

But 'Pilgrimage' I've never even heard mentioned before: always great when you chance upon great films by favourite directors

Pilgrimage is the most amazing film in Ford's oeuvre because it's the most unexpected. He made the best film ever about old women. Let me repeat: John Ford made the best film ever about old women when he was a young man.

(I was surprised at just how good 'Prisoner of Shark Island' was,when I re-watched it recently, although the depiction of the black soldiers was distasteful)

I have zero patience for Shark Island. I think Ford made this before he realized he was great enough to make history instead of merely recording it. Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history. Young Mr. Lincoln is when he learned to make history.

[Mark Metcalf]

Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history.

But Shark Island bothers me because of all the historical facts that were modified,to make a better story.

[Yojimbo]

I've now ordered the Silent mini box-set, and may well also get the 'Comedies' set, although as I mentioned in another thread, I'm just wondering whether Will Rogers will hold up

Hold up to what? The Rogers films are not mugging "actors classics" as Sarris defined the term: they are pure Ford and construct teetering-on-the-edge communities that is as good as anything in his more famous works. Steamboat Around the Bend, especially, sets a stormy tone beneath the surface. The twisted Americana in the steamboat show rivals anything Lynch has come up with.

But 'Pilgrimage' I've never even heard mentioned before: always great when you chance upon great films by favourite directors

Pilgrimage is the most amazing film in Ford's oeuvre because it's the most unexpected. He made the best film ever about old women. Let me repeat: John Ford made the best film ever about old women when he was a young man.

(I was surprised at just how good 'Prisoner of Shark Island' was,when I re-watched it recently, although the depiction of the black soldiers was distasteful)

I have zero patience for Shark Island. I think Ford made this before he realized he was great enough to make history instead of merely recording it. Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history. Young Mr. Lincoln is when he learned to make history.

'hold up' meaning it, or Rogers schtick, not appearing dated today.
Will Rogers may be beloved on your side of the Atlantic but he's (relatively) unknown over here: and I rarely consider Ford as solely, if at all, an actor's director.

As for 'Pilgrimage': following Schreck's alerting me to the film, I did some research on it: its visual beauty seems to be generally acknowledged, but there seems to be something of a concensus regarding its sentimentality.
Ford often walks a very narrow tightrope as regards sentimentality: in my view the films that tend to give off the warmest glow tends to be my favourites of his films, but until I'm familiar enough with another person's breadth of opinions, the jury will still remain out for me as to just how high I would rank it in the Ford canon.

Interestingly enough I watched 'Prisoner' and Lincoln' on consecutive nights recently, and I preferred the former, even though Henry Fonda is one of the great actors of Ford cinema.
With 'Prisoner' Ford was somewhat liberal in his relating' of history, but then I wouldn't have expected otherwise from him.

But what particularly surprised me about 'Prisoner' was how suspenseful it was: Hitchcock wouldn't have been ashamed of it (and Spielberg would even have enjoyed the sharks sequences)

[Yojimbo]

Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history.
But Shark Island bothers me because of all the historical facts that were modified,to make a better story.

'print the legend': Ford didn't have to wait for 'Liberty Vallance' to adopt that maxim

[GringoTex]

Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history.
But Shark Island bothers me because of all the historical facts that were modified,to make a better story.

It's still merely a somber recording of history. But why does it bother you that Ford modified facts to make a better story? That's what movies do. If it's facts you want, read an encyclopedia.

[Yojimbo]

Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history.
But Shark Island bothers me because of all the historical facts that were modified,to make a better story.

It's still merely a somber recording of history. But why does it bother you that Ford modified facts to make a better story? That's what movies do. If it's facts you want, read an encyclopedia.

I think, comparing 'Young Lincoln' and 'Prisoner', I suspect Lincoln was a hero of Ford's so he would be inclined to deify him, to a certain extent, and this would influence the tone of the film.
Do you recall the opening scene in 'Prisoner' where Lincoln was conversing with the crowd from his balcony, and expressing his admiration for 'Dixie'?

(that was hardly a somber historical fact)

He may have given a relatively scrupulous relating of history in 'Prisoner', apart from the not insignificant detail regarding how well Mudd knew Booth, but his telling of the respective stories may have been largely determined by his feelings for the subject of each film.