The Lists Project

[Matt]

You know what we ought to do after this go-round with the decades? We should do an Alternate Oscars project. Go year by year and submit/vote on our picks for Best Picture, Director, Actor, Actress, and Screenplay. We could even go further and do Supporting Actor and Actress, Cinematography, and so on. Whatcha think?

[swo17]

I thought you weren't a fan of the Oscars.

[zedz]

You know what we ought to do after this go-round with the decades? We should do an Alternate Oscars project. Go year by year and submit/vote on our picks for Best Picture, Director, Actor, Actress, and Screenplay. We could even go further and do Supporting Actor and Actress, Cinematography, and so on. Whatcha think?

Sounds intriguing. Would we have to restrict our votes to traditional Oscar territory (i.e. English-language, generally Hollywood feature films)? i.e. Would this be a plausible 'alternative Oscars' or a weird parallel universe in which Glauber Rocha films get Academy nods?

I don't know that the vote itself would be particularly interesting - I envision a handful of usual suspects getting multiple nods amid an ocean of one-offs - but the defences should be.

[domino harvey]

There would have to be some kind of tiering before we got five "nominees" in each category that the forum would then vote on. So were this to happen, there'd have to be several steps:

01 The entire forum votes for ten films/performances/whatever in every category, categories to be defined beforehand. This round should be "open ballot" (shown publicly in a thread) and not tabulated until the first deadline, to allow for edits. This is a preliminary campaign.

02 All films/roles/whatever receiving three votes or more move on to the next round. The next round finds all participants voting from the given list and only from the given list. This round could be open ballot but I doubt it matters because the real campaigning has already been fought.

03 Top five in every category is provided. This is like the real Oscars, five choices, and you have to choose only one. Like the real Oscars, it doesn't even matter if you've seen the film, you might vote for other reasons. You must vote for every category. Campaigning would obviously return more vigorously in this contentious round, and you'd have to wade through post after post of people complaining that their choice didn't get selected.

04 Tabulate votes and award the winner for each category. The placement of all films not winning would not be revealed, just like the Oscars. A panel of three volunteers should handle all final results to reassure the voters of the legitimacy-- I'd humbly suggest myself, Matt, and zedz, but whoever the three are would have to be willing to do a lot of tabulation legwork.

I can't really see it working any other way, and this is a labyrinthine exercise that would require a lot of time to set up and execute-- I doubt the feasibility of it, but as an Oscar buff from before grade school, I'm intrigued nonetheless-- Though I'll be very honest, I don't see how this is that much different than most other lists here. Why not just make a Top 50 Performances list or something?

Of course, another approach to an "Alternative Oscars" would be a lot simpler: Just have forum members vote for the existing nominees and report the "new" winners.

[Dylan]

I can't really see it working any other way, and this is a labyrinthine exercise that would require a lot of time to set up and execute

I agree, but I also think it would be quite a lot of fun to try this out on one year and see what everybody comes up with.

But what year? For some reason, I'm thinking 1969 or 1980, and limited to US release date.

[Matt]

I thought you weren't a fan of the Oscars.

Which is why I'm proposing an Alternate Oscars. Duuuhhh.

A panel of three volunteers should handle all final results to reassure the voters of the legitimacy-- I'd humbly suggest myself, Matt, and zedz, but whoever the three are would have to be willing to do a lot of tabulation legwork.

I'm willing to help out with a test run to get things started, but I'm afraid I can't participate much beyond that. I just wanted to have a great idea and see you all put it into action. And then criticize your work. I'm the Dore Schary of criterionforum.org.

[denti alligator]

I think it's a great idea, but we're talking 2010 at the earliest...

[Sanjuro]

Sounds like fun. But would it follow all of Oscars rules, like 'has to have played for 3 days in a cinema in LA', 'can't have played on an obscure cable channel in Sweden when no-one was awake' or 'must contain at least 40% original music (or something like that)'?

[swo17]

I thought you weren't a fan of the Oscars.

Which is why I'm proposing an Alternate Oscars. Duuuhhh.

In hindsight, this was not a very good joke.

[tojoed]

What's the award going to be called? A "Matty", perhaps?

[domino harvey]

What would everyone think of running the Alternative Oscars concurrently with the other lists? Something simple, like just voting on just all the Best Picture Oscars? I think anything more than that is going to prove too unwieldy, and most of the films are widely available, unlike many of the more devoted categories. Maybe divide the Best Picture winners in half, first part through the end of the Code (27-68) and then post-code for the second round (69-08)? You just vote like any Oscar voter would vote, from the existent nominees.

I'd be happy to start the thread and volunteer myself to do all the tabulating. It seems like a much more feasible "Alternative Oscars," and it's something that could be going on in the background while the 80s and 90s lists are going-- I'd make the first round not due til April or May of '09. Remember, for the first fifteen years or so, there were ten nominees for Best Picture, so that's several hundred films to choose from each round. I just thought I'd throw this around before I went through the trouble of actually making the thread and posting 40 years worth of selections. If nothing else, it could inspire a lot of rediscoveries/reaffirmations/reevaluations of cannon-fodder that otherwise might get greeted with an upturned nose on the forum.

[Mr Sausage]

What would everyone think of running the Alternative Oscars concurrently with the other lists? Something simple, like just voting on just all the Best Picture Oscars? I think anything more than that is going to prove too unwieldy, and most of the films are widely available, unlike many of the more devoted categories. Maybe divide the Best Picture winners in half, first part through the end of the Code (27-68) and then post-code for the second round (69-08)? You just vote like any Oscar voter would vote, from the existent nominees.

I'd be happy to start the thread and volunteer myself to do all the tabulating. It seems like a much more feasible "Alternative Oscars," and it's something that could be going on in the background while the 80s and 90s lists are going-- I'd make the first round not due til April or May of '09. Remember, for the first fifteen years or so, there were ten nominees for Best Picture, so that's several hundred films to choose from each round. I just thought I'd throw this around before I went through the trouble of actually making the thread and posting 40 years worth of selections. If nothing else, it could inspire a lot of rediscoveries/reaffirmations/reevaluations of cannon-fodder that otherwise might get greeted with an upturned nose on the forum.

Because of the small number of films up for voting, this would be an ideal use for the poll feature (would certainly save you trouble, Domino). Except since the upgrade the poll option has disappeared. If people are up for this, would you be averse to letting Chris reinstate the poll feature and doing it that way?

[domino harvey]

I don't know, poll options give people a chance to just blindly vote for the film they've seen (and would encourage a lot of lurkers to vote for a title without submitting a list or posting in the thread) instead of engaging in a discussion about the five films in a given year and their pros and cons. I know people can do that anyways with the regular system, but at least it forces someone to sit down and think about forty films they like more than a couple hundred others. If there's a poll, someone who's only seen My Fair Lady is just going to vote once for that film. Not that it or any movie doesn't deserve a chance, but one lurker voting for one film is a waste of this list project. I just think the chances for insights and rediscovery are slimmer with a poll, where people can see trends without having to hear arguments or thoughts. I'm going to go ahead and get started on the thread. But, if the people demand a poll, a poll they shall receive

[Mr Sausage]

I don't know, poll options give people a chance to just blindly vote for the film they've seen (and would encourage a lot of lurkers to vote for a title without submitting a list or posting in the thread) instead of engaging in a discussion about the five films in a given year and their pros and cons. I know people can do that anyways with the regular system, but at least it forces someone to sit down and think about forty films they like more than a couple hundred others. If there's a poll, someone who's only seen My Fair Lady is just going to vote once for that film. Not that it or any movie doesn't deserve a chance, but one lurker voting for one film is a waste of this list project. I just think the chances for insights and rediscovery are slimmer with a poll, where people can see trends without having to hear arguments or thoughts. I'm going to go ahead and get started on the thread. But, if the people demand a poll, a poll they shall receive

I only suggested the poll as being less work for you, so I doubt there'll be any demand. I find polls actually do come with a reasonable amount of discussion, with most of the participants wanting to say how they voted and why. But you're right about that unchecked bias that'll creep in. So, yes, by all means go ahead with your proposal.

[swo17]

Not to denigrate the effort Domino's already put forth on this (and maybe it's too late to suggest this) but wouldn't the easiest way to run the Alternative Oscars list concurrent with the decades list without interfering be just to tackle the Oscars ten years at a time, by decade, looking at the same time period as the decades list? I know that would go a lot slower, but I'm wondering if more people would be willing to watch all the nominated films, and a more meaningful discussion would be allowed to take place, if they were able to pace themselves more.

Consider this scenario: Say The Apartment is one of your favorite films of all time. The other films nominated in that year might have their own merits, but if you figure there's no chance in hell you're going to like another one of the films from that year more than The Apartment, and you're feeling the time crunch, you might be less inclined to check out the other four films. On the other hand, it is much more likely that one of these films would make your Top 50 of the decade than that it would displace The Apartment, and so you would be more likely to watch them for this purpose.

[domino harvey]

I see what you're saying, but I guess eight or nine months seems to me like enough time to fill in gaps along the way. I can't imagine dragging this out a decade at a time, and this way if someone is pretty close to a year, they'll be able to discuss it sooner than others. I mean, just personally, while I think there's only one year where I haven't seen any nominated film, there's also no year where I've seen all of them yet. So I'm kind of excited to plug the holes and talk about the years I'm closest to finishing and then working around that in the coming months and I bet a lot of other people are in similar boats. This is also why I haven't tackled a year yet. I don't think anyone will be able to see all the films when they vote, but I'd hope everyone gets as close as they can and I haven't even set a solid deadline, so I'm willing to push it into the fall even. I'd rather leave the field as wide as it is now, especially since there's a big shift in movies before and after the barrier. If anything, I'd rather give more time to compile than give less time and shorten the span-- anything that gets people talking is good, and the wide date range means hopefully there'll be years to appeal to everyone, even people who don't normally do the huge lists because they haven't seen enough movies or whatever reason.

I don't think it should be considered on the same terms as the decade project though-- here's a finite list of movies to draw from, which will eventually lead to participants being on the same pages. But I'm open to suggestions. This is the first time I've tried to do something like this on the board and it's like throwing your first party: You just anxiously pace around and wait and see if anyone shows up.

[zedz]

I think domino's idea of doing the Oscar thing all at once makes sense, and aiming for April / May fills a gap (the 90s list being due the end of June).

Which reminds me about the 80s list. This is due at the end of December, which looked neat and tidy when the schedule was drawn up, but is impractical for me (I'll be out of town over Christmas / New Year) and probably others.

Options R:
1) maintain the current deadline (31 December) and everyone waits a couple of weeks for me to compile the results
2) extend the deadline to, say, 15 January and run as usual (probably not much difference in practice)
3) bring the deadline forward to, say, 15 December and run as usual.

Vote now for your preferred alternative reality.

[souvenir]

I vote for January 15. It doesn't shorten the deadline and also allows for the watching of things received over the holidays.

[domino harvey]

Another vote for extending the deadline

[zedz]

I suspected as much. If you have a dissenting view, pipe up now!

[colinr0380]

15th January sounds good to me too. It gives me the holidays to do another check of the films on the list without worrying about having to immediately send it off by New Years Eve. It will also let zedz have a relaxing break too without everyone harassing him for reasons why the results have not been posted by the 2nd January!

[zedz]

80s List Reminder:

The new deadline is January 15, so you've still got a few weeks to go. I might not be around much until a few days before that, so don't worry if your PM seems to go into a void!

[zedz]

The 1980s List

1. Fanny & Alexander (Bergman) 909
2. Ran (Kurosawa) 722
3. Blade Runner (Scott) 639
4. Raging Bull (Scorsese) 622
5. Blue Velvet (Lynch) 617
6. The Shining (Kubrick) 609
7. Do the Right Thing (Lee) 516
8. Fitzcarraldo (Herzog) 499
9. Come and See (Klimov) 489
10. The Decalogue (Kieslowski) 488
11. Veronika Voss (Fassbinder) 485
12. Berlin Alexanderplatz (Fassbinder) 484
13. Wings of Desire (Wenders) 465
14. L’Argent (Bresson) 463
15. Videodrome (Cronenberg) 457
16. Once Upon a Time in America (Leone) 398
17. King of Comedy (Scorsese) 386
18. The Sacrifice (Tarkovsky) 383
19. The Right Stuff (Kauffman) 369
20. Paris, Texas (Wenders) 361
21. Crimes & Misdemeanours (Allen) 340
22. Full Metal Jacket (Kubrick) 339
23. Sans soleil (Marker) 330
24. A nos amours (Pialat) 321
25. Down By Law (Jarmusch) 318
26. The Thing (Carpenter) 305
27. Vagabond (Varda) 303
28. Brazil (Gilliam) 291
29. The Dead (Huston) 289
30. Zelig (Allen) 284
31. Dead Ringers (Cronenberg) 279
32. Raiders of the Lost Ark (Spielberg) 278
33= Superstar (Haynes) 274
33= Sherman's March (McElwee) 274
35. The Elephant Man (Lynch) 272
36. Blood Simple ( Coens) 269
37. Broadway Danny Rose (Allen) 263
38. Hannah & Her Sisters (Allen) 262
39= After Hours (Scorsese) 258
39= The Purple Rose of Cairo (Allen) 258
41. Nostalghia (Tarkovsky) 255
42. Alice (Svankmajer) 253
43. Atlantic City (Malle) 251
44. Landscape in the Mist (Angelopoulos) 241
45. Black Rain (Imamura) 239
46= This Is Spinal Tap (Reiner) 237
46= Stranger than Paradise (Jarmusch) 237
48. Something Wild (Demme) 231
49. The Cook, the Thief, His Wife and Her Lover (Greenaway) 214
50. Mishima (Schrader) 210
51= My Neighbour Totoro (Miyazaki) 209
51= Three Crowns of a Sailor (Ruiz) 209
53. Koyaanisqatsi (Reggio) 207
54. The Thin Blue Line (Morris) 201
55. Pauline at the Beach (Rohmer) 198
56= Grave of the Fireflies (Takahata) 197
56= My Dinner with Andre (Malle) 197
58. The Vanishing (Sluizer) 196
59. Street of Crocodiles (Quays) 193
60. Blow Out (De Palma) 192
61. Distant Voices, Still Lives (Davies) 191
62= Possession (Zulawski) 188
62= The Fly (Cronenberg) 188
64. The Unbearable Lightness of Being (Kauffman) 187
65. The Terroriser (Yang) 186
66. The Empire Strikes Back (Kirshner) 181
67. Mystery Train (Jarmusch) 180
68. They All Laughed (Bogdanovich) 178
69. Radio Days (Allen) 167
70. Santa Sangre (Jodorowsky) 164
71= Bad Timing (Roeg) 162
71= The Green Ray (Rohmer) 162
73. Aliens (Cameron) 161
74= Lola (Fassbinder) 160
74= Mon Oncle d'Amerique (Resnais) 160
76= Au revoir les enfants (Malle) 159
76= Heaven's Gate (Cimino) 159
76= Stardust Memories (Allen) 159
76= The Aviator's Wife (Rohmer) 159
80. A City of Sadness (Hou) 158
81. The Last Temptation of Christ (Scorsese) 155
82. The Falls (Greenaway) 153
83. Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown (Almodovar) 149
84. Raising Arizona (Coens) 148
85= The Ballad of Narayama (Imamura) 147
85= Gang of Four (Rivette) 147
87= The Killer (Woo) 143
87= A Zed and Two Noughts (Greenaway) 143
89. The Big Red One (Fuller) 141
90. Lost in America (Brooks) 139
91. Where Is the Friend's Home? (Kiarostami) 138
92= The Draughtman's Contract (Greenaway) 134
92= My Beautiful Laundrette (Frears) 134
94= The Asthenic Syndrome (Muratova) 132
94= A Short Film about Killing (Kieslowski) 132
96. Amadeus (Forman) 130
97. House of Games (Mamet) 129
98= E.T. (Spielberg) 128
98= Detective (Godard) 128
98= Elephant (Clarke) 128


The Also Rans

City of Pirates
Sunday in the Country
Manhunter
Mauvais sang
Local Hero
Cutter's Way
Darkness Light Darkness
Die Hard
Passion
Body Double
Man of Iron
Drugstore Cowboy
Verdict
King Lear
Robocop
Sex, Lies & Videotape
Gregory's Girl
Prenom:Carmen
Das Boot
Red Sorghum
Coup de torchon
And the Ship Sails On
Melvin & Howard
Modern Romance
Horse Thief
Under the Volcano
Kagemusha
Heimat
Night of the Shooting Stars
Shoah
Short Film About Love
Police
When Father Was Away on Business
Seventh Continent
Jean de Florette
Law of Desire
Rumble Fish
Ferris Bueller's Day Off
Eight Men Out
Choose Me
Yol
Chocolat
Runaway Train
Back to the Future
Dante Quartet
My Girlfriend's Boyfriend
Christmas Story
Damnation
Housekeeping
Cinema Paradiso
Mala Noche
After the Rehearsal
Land of Dreams
Company of Wolves
Comrades
Moonlighting
Gremlins
Repo Man
Matador
Dimensions of Dialogue
God's Country
Mad Max 2
Belly of an Architect
Hairspray
Stop Making Sense
Cry in the Dark
Matewan
Vernon, Florida
Last Emperor
Fish Called Wanda
Pont du nord
Withnail & I
Room with a View
Beau Pere
Burden of Dreams
Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean
Platoon
Untouchables
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Cobra Verde
Near Dark
Day of the Dead
Kaos
Blood Wedding
Empire of the Sun
Altered States
Enemies: A Love Story
Excalibur
Summer at Grandpa's
Witness
Stunt Man
Heathers
Broadcast News
Secret Honor
Element of Crime
Hail Mary
Sauve Qui peut (la vie)
Year of Living Dangerously
Married to the Mob
Diva
Grass Labyrinth
Another Way
Dressed to Kill
French Lieutenant's Woman
Evil Dead II
Akira
High Hopes
Prince of the City
Pee-Wee's Big Adventure
Time of the Gypsies
Yellow Earth
Chinese Ghost Story
Rehearsals for Extinct Anatomies
Sous le soleil de Satan
Atomic Café
Say Anything
Crac
Dust in the Wind
My Brother's Wedding
Roger & Me
Tampopo
Terminator
American Gigolo
Amour a mort
Angelic Conversation
Missing
Batman
Sixteen Candles
Pixote
Poto and Cabengo
Interrogation
Adventures of Baron Munchausen
She's Gotta Have It
Passage to India
Good Marriage
To Live and Die in LA
28 Up
Full Moon in Paris
Dead Zone
From the Life of the Marionettes
Love on the Ground
Ties That Bind
Loulou
Masques
Barbarosa
Eureka
What Have I Done to Deserve This?
Boy Meets Girl
Long Good Friday
Trouble in Mind
Breaker Morant
Mephisto
Intervista
Time Bandits
Near Death
Thelonious Monk: Straight No Chaser
Better Off Dead
Henry V
My Favourite Year
Betty Blue
Airplane!
Ghostbusters
Legend of Suram Fortress
Flight of the Eagle
Reds
Field of Dreams
Beetlejuice
Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy
Norte
Salvador
Round Midnight
Dangerous Liaisons
Opera
Chameleon Street
Britannia Hospital
Mona Lisa
Midnight Run
Prizzi's Honor
As Tears Go By
Hunger
Scarface
Ishtar
Escape from New York
Ariel
My Life as a Dog
Fletch
Tetsuo: the Iron Man
Clue

[zedz]

Reminder time: 90s lists are due at the end of this month.

PM your lists to me (favourite 50, in order - see the 90s List thread for eligibility criteria).

[zedz]

Second and probably last reminder in this thread: less than a week to go for submission of your 90s lists.