Ingmar Bergman (1918-2007)

Discuss film culture and criticism
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Mr Sausage
Has Risen from the Grave
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:02 am
Location: Canada

#226 Post by Mr Sausage »

colinr0380 wrote:I don't ever want to be made to choose between Bergman or Antonioni as to who was 'better' - it is a ludicrous attempt at ranking diverse and special talents in their own right.
Many people don't seem to make the distinction between what they like better and what is better, which are not the same things at all. It's too easy to indulge oneself by starting at the entirely arbitrary and accidental position of one's taste and extending that into the realm of arguable fact. Consequently, many seem loathe to admit the accidental nature of their likes and dislikes by making things objective: thus Bergman, since I like him more, since he has moved me more, must be doing something better than Antonioni, must indeed be the better filmmaker. That doesn't really follow, does it?

It's true, I do like Bergman more than Antonioni, but I refuse to argue that one is better than the other because I know the variable here is not one or the other filmmaker but myself. I much prefer to argue the merits of a film based on internal aesthetic evidence, not whether it matches up to certain favourites of mine. So I'm careful to make the distinction between what I like and what is aesthetically good because, like colinr0380 says, it's ludicrous to qualitatively rank intense luminaries on the basis that they glow from different substances, or are alight with disparate colours.

There is, however, merit in comparing films that attempt the same kind of things, illuminating the faults of one by its collocation with the strengths of the other.

Actually, I find I like negative criticisms less and less these days because they just end up underlining the various vanities and biases of the critic. The negative criticisms I really enjoy come within positive appraisals because they are less likely to spring from any vanity or falseness and because they render the actual praise more careful and considered.
User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#227 Post by colinr0380 »

Deleted!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

#228 Post by kinjitsu »

The Woody Allen piece in the New York Times is now available to regular subcribers: The Man Who Asked Hard Questions
User avatar
Person
Joined: Sat May 19, 2007 7:00 pm

#229 Post by Person »

BBC 2's Arena showed a documentary on Bergman called, Encountering Bergman at 23:20 tonight in the UK. I missed it. Did anyone see it?

Oh, Woody Allen on the death of Bergman, if you are interested.

Bergman and Bibi Andersson on The Dick Cavett Show (!) from the early 70s: PART 1 - PART 2

Beautiful woman. Terrible dress. :wink:
User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#230 Post by colinr0380 »

Person wrote:BBC 2's Arena showed a documentary on Bergman called, Encountering Bergman at 23:20 tonight in the UK. I missed it. Did anyone see it?
It was a pretty decent introduction to the man and his films based around interviews with three people who themselves interviewed Bergman - Melvyn Bragg (who interviewed Bergman in the 70s as part of his first South Bank Show season), Olivier Assayas and Marie Nyreröd.

Bragg and Assayas start by commenting on Summer With Monika (apparently it was the first subtitled film that Bragg saw and inspired him to follow the rest of Bergman's career). There are clips from that film, The Seventh Seal (the chess game), Winter Light, The Silence (the mother covering her son in her perfume before they go to bed), Persona, Wild Strawberries, Cries And Whispers, Smiles Of A Summer Night and Scenes From A Marriage (which also includes a picture of the cover of British television listings magazine Radio Times from the 70s, when it was apparently a big deal - I couldn't imagine a subtitled Swedish mini-series getting the front cover these days!)

There is documentary footage from the making of Fanny and Alexander documentary (the section where Bergman is directing the boy in the first scene and the funny part where he is showing the logistics of how the dance around the apartment is interrupted by the couple breaking away for a moment to arrange a clandestine meeting, with the husband ending up in line next to his wife!), and some footage from behind the scenes of Persona and Saraband. Also some nice, if brief, footage from a BBC report from the set of The Virgin Spring in 1959 which I had never seen before, though the film is never mentioned by name.

The programme ends with Marie Nyreröd talking about Bergman's love of music in his retirement and makes a nice connection back to To Joy.

Since the documentary was created before Bergman's death it was a little disconcerting to hear them say at the end of the documentary that "Bergman has now retired definitively". No kidding!

So nothing that we wouldn't have known already from watching the DVDs of Bergman's films, and there was no mention of any of the early films other than To Joy, nor Through A Glass Darkly, The Magician, Face To Face, the comedies, Autumn Sonata, any of the sixties films after Persona, any of the later films apart from Fanny and Alexander, or any of the films he wrote for others to direct after his official retirement from filmmaking.

However it was a much better tribute than the Paxman travesty was, and as the main purpose of the documentary was to provide the reminiscences of the three people who had the opportunity to interview him rather than to be pressed into service to act as a eulogy I can forgive the programme itself for not being comprehensive.
User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

#231 Post by MichaelB »

To add a bit of context, the programme was originally broadcast (unnervingly presciently) on July 14 - the relevant BBC website page is here.

So any criticisms of lack of comprehensiveness should be offset against the treasure trove offered by the other two documentaries shown that night, also in the Arena strand. These were Marie Nyrerod's Bergman and Faro Island and Bergman and the Cinema, two hour-long documentaries largely revolving around a delightfully candid and comprehensive interview with the man himself.

Unless the BBC could only afford one-off broadcast rights, I can't believe they won't be repeated at some point - they'd get far more people watching in the light of Bergman's death than they must have done a month ago. But what I really hope is that they'll pick up the third Nyrerod documentary, devoted entirely to Bergman's stage work - apparently that's the most interesting of the trio, because it's the least familiar. (This was the reason the Arena head honcho refused to buy the rights at the time: he thought it was too specialist)
User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#232 Post by colinr0380 »

MichaelB wrote:Unless the BBC could only afford one-off broadcast rights, I can't believe they won't be repeated at some point - they'd get far more people watching in the light of Bergman's death than they must have done a month ago.
More people watching if they showed it on BBC2 as well! :wink:

I'm shocked that BBC4, which is supposed to be dedicated to the arts, felt that third documentary to be too specialist even for them and the people who can receive their channel! Maybe somebody will pick up the films for DVD?
User avatar
tavernier
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:18 pm

#233 Post by tavernier »

Michael Feingold in the Village Voice on Bergman's theater work.
User avatar
essrog
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:24 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minn.

#234 Post by essrog »

Owen Gleiberman on Bergman and the Rosenbaum kerfuffle. Unfortunately, at the end he takes the same approach as Rosenbaum, disparaging other directors to champion his.
User avatar
colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

#235 Post by colinr0380 »

Glenn Kenny on the Rosenbaum piece, including a comment from the man himself!
User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm

#236 Post by domino harvey »

Rosenbaum has placed Sawdust and Tinsel on his Ten Best List :shock:
User avatar
psufootball07
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:52 pm

#237 Post by psufootball07 »

Ok, so these two articles made me laugh, the second one is Ebert pretty much bashing this entire article about Ingmar Bergman being extremely overrated?
User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:25 pm
Location: SLC, UT

#238 Post by swo17 »

I just did a Google search for "ebert + rosenbaum = true love" and came up with 7,320 hits!
User avatar
psufootball07
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:52 pm

#239 Post by psufootball07 »

Very nice. Both Ebert and Rosenbaum worked for Chicago papers. But that article "Scenes from an Overrated career" is just awful. Wikipedia says he contributes to DVD Beaver and Godard considered him a US equivalent of Andre Bazin? Either way I found the whole Bergman article to be extremely distasteful in light of his passing at the time, and I am glad that I am not the only one who found it to be so, as Ebert really bashes him.
User avatar
myrnaloyisdope
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:41 pm
Contact:

#240 Post by myrnaloyisdope »

I've read quite a bit of Rosenbaum's work, and it's almost always impressive, but that Bergman article is garbage. It's so superficial, and reads like a freshman term paper, where the writer makes sure to omit anything that might undermine his point.
User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm

#241 Post by domino harvey »

There's plenty of discussion of the Rosenbaum summer slam in Ingmar Bergman's death thread
jrosenbaum
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:27 pm
Location: jonathanrosenbaum.com
Contact:

#242 Post by jrosenbaum »

It's obvious, Bertrand, that you're delighted, not disturbed.

Sorry I can't be a slim, handsome Good Samaritan like yourself. But, you know, I wrote that piece a year ago, and if that's all that the Forum believes is worth discussing about me (apart from my resemblance to Jane Jacobs), I wonder if I should continue to tune in. This is approximately the 900th piece of online abuse I've received for that admittedly hasty commissioned piece, whose title I neither picked nor liked myself. It was published only a week or so before I lectured very favorably about Sawdust and Tinsel in Chicago, and a few weeks before I showed The Magician (which I also spoke about it with much admiration) in my 50s film course. But of course if you're so fixated on the NY Times and "separated at birth" photos as the only references worth mentioning in connection with me, I guess I should be grateful for the derisive attention.

Jonathan R.
User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:42 pm

#243 Post by domino harvey »

Mr. Rosenbaum, though you stepped on a lot of toes with that Bergman piece (even though, ahem, I and a few others defended your article), do a forum search-- you're widely regarded by this forum as one of the most interesting writers about film, and we cite you and your writings constantly (and often in a more positive fashion).
User avatar
Antoine Doinel
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Contact:

#244 Post by Antoine Doinel »

Hey Jonathan, sure you see why people would find it in poor taste to take down a celebrated career of a director, so soon after his death? If it was hastily commissioned, why did you write it in the first place? Honestly, I think the forum would love it if you could expand on the piece, and perhaps respond to Roger Ebert's comments because as they stand, the piece comes off as illtimed at best and petty and misinformed at worst.

Also, if you take a further look around the forum, you have plenty of fans here.
jrosenbaum
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:27 pm
Location: jonathanrosenbaum.com
Contact:

#245 Post by jrosenbaum »

Honestly, I think the forum would love it if you could expand on the piece, and perhaps respond to Roger Ebert's comments because as they stand, the piece comes off as illtimed at best and petty and misinformed at worst.

Also, if you take a further look around the forum, you have plenty of fans here.
Thanks, Antoine (and thanks, Domino). But I did respond to Roger's comments--and Bertrand's--and dozens of other posts, not once but many times, about a year ago. Roger even made a point of renewing our friendship after his screed, so I don't want any of you to conclude that we regard one another as foes.

You can check out all of my responses on the Chicago Reader film blog, the Chicago Sun-Times film blog (including Jim Emerson's "Scanners"), and "a film by" (one of the Yahoo chat groups), to cite only three of the places where most of these are clustered. And with all due respect, Matt, all of these are public places too and ones that at least theoretically "last forever," just like the Times, which everybody treats with far too much awe--including me, perhaps, when I accepted their friendly invitation and submitted to so many rewrites. To all of you out there who have higher morals than me and would have turned down their invitation even if they agreed with the article's basic premise, I can only say that I labored long and hard, and even successfully, to make the piece somewhat less negative than my editor wanted it to be. And for the record, while I don't consider this one of my stronger pieces, I still agree with the thrust of what I wrote, as you'll see if you want to check those multiple responses.

P.S. Manny Farber, the film critic and painter, who died just over a week ago, has been getting all sorts of positive AND negative online reviews ever since, and I can't recall any of them stirring up as much anger, even from passionate fans such as me. But then again, these reviews haven't run in the Times--who ran only a misinformed, skimpy, belated, and otherwise inadequate obituary.

Jonathan R.
User avatar
Tom Hagen
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:35 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

#246 Post by Tom Hagen »

Jonathan, welcome to the forum, and please, please continue to interact here at your leisure. I echo domino's sentiments that you are among the most cited, discussed, and generally admired critics among the participants here. If you have raised any past ire here on the subject of Bergman or anything else, it is precisely because you are so respected both as a critic, and as a frequent contributor to Criterion releases; any strong reaction to your contrarian work around these parts likely stems from your very real stature here. Other prominent film critics play the role of contrarian to gain noterity or influence (cough, cough, Armond White), but from my experience with your work, any contrarianism stems from a very real desire to understand and discuss cinema at a heightened level of discourse. Though I am a committed Bergmanite (and strongly disagreed with your NYT op ed), the thrust of the piece was well-received and timely. Perhaps more important still was the subsequent dialogue with Roger Ebert and others, a series of exchanges that I found fascinating as a student of film and of film criticism.

For many of us here, your work is an essential check point in the critical discussion of both new films and of the canon -- I know that I frequently turn to my dog-eared copies of Movies as Politics and Placing Movies on my bookshelf. I look forward to whatever level of participation you can contribute here.
User avatar
tryavna
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

#247 Post by tryavna »

I don't know whether I'm pleased and impressed that Jonathan has been "tuning in" to our forum, as he puts, or disappointed and embarrassed that his first post here is dedicated to responding to a series of posts that are really beneath him.
User avatar
HerrSchreck
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm

#248 Post by HerrSchreck »

tryavna wrote:I don't know whether I'm pleased and impressed that Jonathan has been "tuning in" to our forum, as he puts, or disappointed and embarrassed that his first post here is dedicated to responding to a series of posts that are really beneath him.
My sentiments exactly.
User avatar
vogler
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:42 pm
Location: England

Why is the Ingmar Bergman 1918-2007 thread locked?

#249 Post by vogler »

Why is the "Ingmar Bergman 1918-2007" thread locked? Sacred cows?

I know very little about Jonathan Rosenbaum but from all acounts I've heard that he is one of the most accomplished and insightful film critics in the U.S. So why in god's name would a thread have to be locked just because a few people expressed negative views toward one of his articles?
HerrSchreck wrote:
tryavna wrote:I don't know whether I'm pleased and impressed that Jonathan has been "tuning in" to our forum, as he puts, or disappointed and embarrassed that his first post here is dedicated to responding to a series of posts that are really beneath him.
My sentiments exactly.
My sentiments Oppositely.
tryavna wrote:to responding to a series of posts that are really beneath him.
Crock of shit.
Antoine Doinel wrote:Hey Jonathan, sure you see why people would find it in poor taste to take down a celebrated career of a director, so soon after his death? If it was hastily commissioned, why did you write it in the first place? Honestly, I think the forum would love it if you could expand on the piece, and perhaps respond to Roger Ebert's comments because as they stand, the piece comes off as illtimed at best and petty and misinformed at worst.

Also, if you take a further look around the forum, you have plenty of fans here.
This post, and others, seem perfectly resonable to me and not at all beneath anyone, even respected film critics.
User avatar
Sanjuro
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:37 am
Location: Yokohama, Japan

#250 Post by Sanjuro »

Isn't this all in the new Ebert vs Rosenbaum thread down in Navel Gazing?

-wait, no I guess that's gone too. Can't keep up with this damn board...
Post Reply