Lost Films

[adeeze]

Still waiting for Kubrick's secretly filmed Napoleon to be revealed.

[myrnaloyisdope]

Still waiting for Kubrick's secretly filmed Napoleon to be revealed.

Ditto the outtakes of the moon landing.

[aox]

Still waiting for Kubrick's secretly filmed Napoleon to be revealed.

It's great. Barry Lyndon is one of my favorite films.

[lady wakasa]

I found out recently that only one film exists from Korea's silent era - and that was discovered earlier this year. So things could be a lot worse than 80%.

(There was another silent film made around WWII, but that was a function of available film stock.)

[MichaelB]

Poland's pre-1939 film heritage...

...well, you can fill in the blank: they're having to!

In many ways, 1945 was Year Zero for Polish cinema: the industry more or less shut down when the Nazis and Soviets pincered the country in September 1939, and by the time the smoke cleared a colossal proportion of the pre-1939 output had been destroyed along with much of Warsaw. Marek Haltof's history of Polish cinema keeps apologising for having to guess what many of these films were like, but in many cases all that survives are reviews and other verbal accounts.

This year, the main Polish national film archive is marking the centenary of Polish cinema by writing to every international archive it can think of in search of any pre-1945 Polish films that might have been spirited abroad prior to the destruction and which are currently sitting unloved and neglected on their shelves. To say I wish them well is a major understatement.

[Danny Burk]

Paramount is one of the worst; they simply didn't care and let 'em rot. ... The lost include ..most of Raymond Griffith...

A loss, to be sure. I was lucky enough to lose a bet about the "official" aspect ratio of Vampyr, and wound up having to pay off in tix (at MoMa) to see Griffith's "Hands Up", an absolutely riproaring silent comedy taking place during the civil war. If all lost bets paid off that hilariously, betting'd be a hell of a lot more fun.

It's a shame that Raymond Griffith isn't well known today, and it's certainly not for lack of making good films. Instead, 1) most of his films are lost; 2) the survivors are owned by Paramount, and we all know how much they love their silents; 3) his starring career ended with sound since he couldn't speak above a whisper. Luckily for him, he had a second career as a producer at Fox in the 30s.

HANDS UP is great; interestingly, reviewers at the time panned THE GENERAL and mentioned its inferiority to the previous year's HANDS UP! It's one of the few surviving RG films; PATHS TO PARADISE is even better, although its last reel is lost. (Fortunately, reel 6 ends at a place that "could" be the ending, but it's sad to know that it actually continued for another reel.) His only other surviving starring roles are in MISS BLUEBEARD (only as a 5-reel Kodascope cutdown in 16mm), YOU'D BE SURPRISED, which I haven't seen, and TRENT'S LAST CASE, which has a bad reputation but I also haven't seen it. He pops up in supporting roles in some earlier films, including Paramount's wonderful CHANGING HUSBANDS and OPEN ALL NIGHT, and even in Tod Browning's WHITE TIGER.

[HerrSchreck]

He's also the guy laying there dead in the shellhole with the guilt ridden lead in All Quiet On The Western Front. He's the dead french soldier with the toothy death grimace.

Silent even in a talkie!

[Jonathan S]

His only other surviving starring roles are in MISS BLUEBEARD (only as a 5-reel Kodascope cutdown in 16mm), YOU'D BE SURPRISED, which I haven't seen, and TRENT'S LAST CASE, which has a bad reputation but I also haven't seen it. He pops up in supporting roles in some earlier films, including Paramount's wonderful CHANGING HUSBANDS and OPEN ALL NIGHT, and even in Tod Browning's WHITE TIGER.

THE NIGHT CLUB - which I like a lot - is another extant starring role for Griffith.

[Adam]

Independent stars/producers tend to have a much better rate because they did their own archiving. Chaplin, Lloyd, Pickford, de Mille, Fairbanks, etc. have very high survival rates after they started to produce their own films; usually most or all of these have survived.

I still get amazed by the story of the discovery of Keaton's films by James Mason in a vault in Mason's home, which had been Keaton's home (er, huge mansion). Wouldn't much of Keaton's output been lost without that? What if Mason had just torn down the wall with the vault in it?

[Antoine Doinel]

A very interesting story on the ongoing difficulties of extracting Georgian films from Russia's archives. One wonders at what is currently sitting waiting to be discovered in those vaults.....

[Danny Burk]

THE NIGHT CLUB - which I like a lot - is another extant starring role for Griffith.

You're right, I forgot about that one...it survives as another 5-reel Kodascope cutdown in 16mm.

I still get amazed by the story of the discovery of Keaton's films by James Mason in a vault in Mason's home, which had been Keaton's home (er, huge mansion). Wouldn't much of Keaton's output been lost without that? What if Mason had just torn down the wall with the vault in it?

Probably so, although I've never seen an actual list of the titles that were found. Keaton was interviewed in 1948 and commented that he didn't believe THE THREE AGES existed at that time...rather surprising given that it was only 25 years old in 1948. I believe it was rediscovered more recently than the Mason cache, i.e. 60s or 70s era.

[MichaelB]

Wouldn't much of Keaton's output been lost without that?

Yup - and the entire Mitchell & Kenyon collection could easily have ended up in a skip. Fortunately, someone was clued-up enough to get in touch with a local film historian, and the rest is history (on a great many levels).

[HerrSchreck]

SO much of film history is recaptured and established out of thin air by these combinations of diligence and/or good luck. So many crucial (re)discoveries happened exactly along the lines of, say, David Shepard's recovery of the previously lost Traffic In Souls. He'd always had his ears to the ground for news of the imminent knock-down destruction of old commercial buildings. In this case, he if I remember correct received a tip that there were boxes of what might be metal film cans sitting down in the cellar of the abandoned bldg. He beat the wrecking ball in there are grabbed what turned out to be a treasure trove.

Incidentally, over on Silver Screen Oasis (btw when did they get so cool? David Shepard, Kevin Brownlow, Scott Eymann, Alan Rode, and others there are members.. who post) there's a thread about the London After Mid thingy, and the consensus seems to be "bullshit!"--

I belong to an archivist list serve and we have been talking all morning about it.

I contacted an archivist who used to work at the Jefferson vault back in the 1980s at the time the writer says he found the lost print.

According to the archivist I contacted, there was never any nitrate film stored at the Jefferson vault nor did the MGM nitrate films go to UCLA Film and TV Archive as the writer purports.

The surviving MGM nitrate films have been stored at Eastman House since the 1970s.

If I get any more info I will keep you posted!

she also posted

Many people want to believe Sid Terror's story but posting his story on a new website and then going out of town seems a strange way to get your story out.

And to have the web-master ban legit posters for being sceptical about Terror's story is not inspiring any confidence in this claim.

[Antoine Doinel]

So until there is some further investigation/confirmation, I'll put this here, but apparently, an uncut version of A Night At The Opera has been discovered in the Hungarian Film Archives.

I have my doubts about the story as it claims the archive is concerned about the costs of restoration and aren't particularly motivated to restore the film (that would seem to be an odd position for a film archive to take). But wouldn't that responsibility/cost fall to the rights holder anyway? I guess we'll see how this unfolds.

[MichaelB]

I have my doubts about the story as it claims the archive is concerned about the costs of restoration and aren't particularly motivated to restore the film (that would seem to be an odd position for a film archive to take).

It's a perfectly reasonable position - indeed, arguably the only truly sane position - if there's little chance of them recouping the cost of restoration. Film archives are expensive enough to run purely in terms of day-to-day storage (if the films are kept under suitably climate-controlled conditions), so there's rarely much spare cash floating around to take advantage of any unexpected discoveries.

In general, as you acknowledge, the rightsholder is expected to stump up at least some of the cost, as they'll be the ones benefiting from any subsequent reissue. For instance, I doubt the funding for the Metropolis restoration is coming from Argentina!

[Antoine Doinel]

Good point, Michael. Well, I guess my question is: Do film archives receive any kind of payment etc from the rights holders in these sorts of cases in order to hand over the prints? While, the archive in Argentina that has housed Metropolis won't be receiving any cut of DVD sales, is it unreasonable to assume they received some kind of financial payment? It just seems odd there is no movement to get this into the proper hands. In any case, I hope someone gets in touch with Warner's (if they're not on this already) to see what the full extent of the found footage is.

[Jonathan S]

So until there is some further investigation/confirmation, I'll put this here, but apparently, an uncut version of A Night At The Opera has been discovered in the Hungarian Film Archives.

This report has been discussed on other forums for the past month or two. I'm inclined to believe it because if you examine Mr Tamas' actual words he claims only to have found "two additional shots, two additional sentences, and different angles of already known shots" in that first reel.

He specifically states, "it still does not contain the 4 minute street singing intro." So I don't understand why Scott Marks is so excited on the page you linked to; like everyone else he really wants "a print of A Night at the Opera that doesn’t have that huge, hairy splice after the director’s credit" - in other words, the street singing intro that Mr Tamas has not found!

This is still an important find - but it's not an "uncut print", merely a print with uncut scenes. Of course, we don't even know yet what the remaining reels contain!

[MichaelB]

Good point, Michael. Well, I guess my question is: Do film archives receive any kind of payment etc from the rights holders in these sorts of cases in order to hand over the prints?

This depends on individual circumstances, though the archive will want to ensure that it isn't left out of pocket if they've incurred any expenses, even if it's something as simple as storage or telecine costs.

While, the archive in Argentina that has housed Metropolis won't be receiving any cut of DVD sales, is it unreasonable to assume they received some kind of financial payment?

The only people who can answer that are the people privy to the relevant contract.

[Mysterypez]

Good point, Michael. Well, I guess my question is: Do film archives receive any kind of payment etc from the rights holders in these sorts of cases in order to hand over the prints?

This depends on individual circumstances, though the archive will want to ensure that it isn't left out of pocket if they've incurred any expenses, even if it's something as simple as storage or telecine costs.

Having worked with rights owners... mainly studios... who want access to material for the creation of new preservation masters, the thing most archives want is a brand new projection print. From an archive position this is the cheapest option available. We want something to show in our archive/theater or loan to other theaters. Paying for storage... if such thing could be calculated... is not something we turn our noses up at... money is money...but a new print is gold.

While, the archive in Argentina that has housed Metropolis won't be receiving any cut of DVD sales, is it unreasonable to assume they received some kind of financial payment?

The only people who can answer that are the people privy to the relevant contract.

Well the Argentine archive is holding all the cards at this point. I don't want to get into a debate on physical property rights vs. intellectual rights law, but the Argentine archive could make it a clause within the access agreement with the German archive or German rights owner that any future exploitation... ie video... of METROPOLIS with the 'Argentine footage' requires a flat payment of 'X" amount of money or 'X' percentage of sales.

[jsteffe]

A very interesting story on the ongoing difficulties of extracting Georgian films from Russia's archives. One wonders at what is currently sitting waiting to be discovered in those vaults.....

Georgia never had a large output, and as far as I know their films are fairly well accounted for. On the other hand, Gosfilmofond has a lot of stuff, and they may yet turn up some real gems from other countries.

Thanks for the link, though. With your kind permission I'm going to post it in the Georgian cinema thread.

[GaryC]

I want a Convention City hoax, stat!

You have your wish, on Youtube. Someone has posted there the opening credit sequence - well, no they haven't, it's a fake but a clever one. Someone clearly had a lot of time on their hands.

[Antoine Doinel]

Satyajit Ray's once banned and thought destroyed documentary Sikkim has been discovered and restored. And here is some more info on the slate of other Ray films that are in the process of being restored.

[stereo]

I believe the general consensus was yanked chain.

[Knappen]

I believe that he contacted Fox who included the print in their recent box as an easter egg, but that during transport the disc has slid into a false bottom present in only a limited number of copies.