Criterion Blu-ray

[Perkins Cobb]

This was inevitable, but still depressing news in my view. I don't want to sound like a total Luddite -- it'll be nice to have a picture upgrade on these films & all -- but I feel like Criterion is losing focus here. Already in 2008, 12 of their 27 announced releases have been reissues of titles already available on DVD, and now we get to watch them plod through the whole catalog on BluRay all over again? And the fact that the 3 titles in this announcement that are totally new to Criterion all date from after 1980 suggests that BluRay may compel them to select newer films for the collection to take greater advantage of the new format.

I fear BluRay will just divert resources from what Criterion's primary mission should be: releasing movies that are new to disc, chiefly movies from the Janus Library or from licensors (like Toho) with which they have exclusive, or practically exclusive, North American relationships. There are plenty of companies that would be happy to put Chungking Express or Bottle Rocket or The Last Emperor out on BluRay, but there's virtually no place else in R1 where I can go to get some Mizoguchi or Ichikawa or Carne or Visconti, and only so many slots in Criterion's release slate, y'know?

[psufootball07]

I'm just unsure whether Blu-Ray will stay. I mean it plays standard DVDs and upconverts them, so why would I want to get the Blu-Ray? Do they honestly expect me to double-dip on EVERY disc I bought from them, I dont think I would double dip once let alone multiple times. But I think when they go to smaller discs, or something through the internet comes available and just wipes away DVDs completely.
But the fact that they are priced the same as standard is a slap in the face. I figure that enough people bother criterion in the suggestions about this and they will lower the MSRP on the SD.

[atcolomb]

I am happy to see Walkabout get a new upgrade and i hope Picinic At Hanging Rock soon too!! Now i will have Criterion in three formats...laserdisc which i have close to 100, dvd which i have over 80 of them and now Blue Ray but will be picky and buy the movies i like and if they have a good transfer

[chaddoli]

I'm not planning on replacing my collection either, just buying BluRay exclusively in the future. It's gotta happen people, resisting important technological advances is what my grandparents do.

[Der Müde Tod]

I have been buying my DVDs with the knowledge that I will watch most of them only once, justified by living in the middle of nowhere where local cinemas don't deliver better than a decent projector setup. Thus I will not buy high def to replace films I probably would never watch a second time anyway just because they will now exist in a better presentation. I will only be interested in high def releases of stuff I haven't seen or cherish enough. New releases doesn't just mean new films but also good releases of old ones. While high def can't make an old, half-rotten 16mm copy look like it's from yesterday, the better compression technology can prevent the artifacts that are the big drawback of the DVD.

As for BluRay as the high def format of choice: I don't know.
I am very reluctant to invest now or very soon in a BluRay player with the possibility of other options like high-def downloads just around the corner. It's pretty clear that the industry is trying to replicate the CD and DVD wonders that made us repurchase everything vinyl/vhs for a higher price point.

This time, I'll resist, at least until I've watched the last of my backlog DVDs

[Harmonov]

Audiophiles and space nerds are always among the earliest adopters of new technologies, so I'm not surprised that Criterion is starting with those titles.

Hilarious, but true.

[Darth Lavender]

I suppose this will inevitably develop into an "us vs them" sort of debate, regarding the pricing...

But, seriously, it's not like Criterion has increased prices or anything for those of you still on SD... What are you really complaining about? SD costs exactly the same amount that you've always been happily paying.

And there isn't even any evidence that the SD production is going to be dropping off.
As for "focusing more on recent films" I suggest you all take another look at that list... A number of the films there are 16mm (as mentioned)
(And besides which, a film's sharpness has very, very little to do with when it was made... Just witness all the 70mm epics from decades ago.)

Also, on the subject of price; remember most of the costs for these re-issues went into the SD release. The actual costs of re-issuing the film on Bluray are (compared to creating the SD's telecine, extras, etc.) are probably quite minor.
I cannot believe that we have people on this board actually criticising Criterion for NOT CHARGING ENOUGH

And, incidentally, I know people disagree with me, but I say Criterion's mission has never been to present "lost treasures," etc. That's what Eclipse and Masters of Cinema and Second Run are for.
Criterion is there to present the 'Classics' in the very best quality they can manage.

And, while I already think these complaints from SD users are pretty darn ridiculous, here's a further thought about "paying the same for less pixels"
What about those of us without 5.1 audio (like me, for a long time)?
I didn't complain about paying the same prices for stereo, as others are paying for 5.1
Stereo was just the very best the film could offer on my system at the time.

And, incidentally, a number of companies are (very commendably) releasing HD and SD at the same price.

Also, on the subject of 16mm in High Definition, "Leaving Las Vegas" has already been released on HD-DVD (haven't actually watched it yet... Bought it a few months ago for the most excellent price of $4.95 (the joys of a dead format))

[Darbicus]

As I don't have an HDTV, I fail to see the need for a Blu-Ray DVD player while regular DVD's are still being made in vast quantities. Once Blu-Rays come down in price (assuming they stay viable in the marketplace) and I have an HDTV, then I will purchase one and begin purchasing Blu-Ray exclusively. At the same time, I have little to no intention of replacing my large DVD collection with Blu-Rays.

That said, this is exciting news nonetheless.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

I suppose this will inevitably develop into an "us vs them" sort of debate, regarding the pricing...

I certainly don't want to foster any such thing and didn't mean to imply that.

But, seriously, it's not like Criterion has increased prices or anything for those of you still on SD... What are you really complaining about? SD costs exactly the same amount that you've always been happily paying.

Actually I haven't happily been paying the Criterion costs. I always buy my Criterions during the May and November 20% sales. They are way overpriced in my opinion.

And there isn't even any evidence that the SD production is going to be dropping off.

Agreed, thankfully.

Also, on the subject of price; remember most of the costs for these re-issues went into the SD release. The actual costs of re-issuing the film on Bluray are (compared to creating the SD's telecine, extras, etc.) are probably quite minor.
I cannot believe that we have people on this board actually criticising Criterion for NOT CHARGING ENOUGH

What I was saying was don't subsidize the BluRay experiment with the continued high costs of the SD releases. That is unfair to those of us content with SD. It is capitalism 101 that if a product is "inferior" within the product lineup, then the company can no longer charge top dollar for it. If the BluRay releases will retail for $39.95 than the SD releases should plummet in their MSRP.

And, while I already think these complaints from SD users are pretty darn ridiculous, here's a further thought about "paying the same for less pixels"
What about those of us without 5.1 audio (like me, for a long time)?
I didn't complain about paying the same prices for stereo, as others are paying for 5.1
Stereo was just the very best the film could offer on my system at the time.

I recognize the validity of this argument but It isn't strong enough to break me away from my point of view. P.S. sorry for the wierd look of my post. I can't figure out how to do that section by section quoting to answer individual points.

[Gregory]

This was inevitable, but still depressing news in my view. I don't want to sound like a total Luddite -- it'll be nice to have a picture upgrade on these films & all -- but I feel like Criterion is losing focus here. Already in 2008, 12 of their 27 announced releases have been reissues of titles already available on DVD, and now we get to watch them plod through the whole catalog on BluRay all over again? And the fact that the 3 titles in this announcement that are totally new to Criterion all date from after 1980 suggests that BluRay may compel them to select newer films for the collection to take greater advantage of the new format.

I fear BluRay will just divert resources from what Criterion's primary mission should be: releasing movies that are new to disc, chiefly movies from the Janus Library or from licensors (like Toho) with which they have exclusive, or practically exclusive, North American relationships. There are plenty of companies that would be happy to put Chungking Express or Bottle Rocket or The Last Emperor out on BluRay, but there's virtually no place else in R1 where I can go to get some Mizoguchi or Ichikawa or Carne or Visconti, and only so many slots in Criterion's release slate, y'know?

This sums up most of my views on the subject. Still, I recognize that they want their Blu-Ray venture to be a success, so at first they're likely to roll out many of the most popular titles on the new format. In time, if Blu-Ray gets enough market saturation, I think they're more likely to start getting back to a higher proportion of films that aren't big money-spinners. I expected this news but I hoped it would be delayed a bit longer so that the company could keep on releasing titles from the vast number of worthy films that have never been released on DVD (or had poor transfers, are OOP and hard to find, etc.). It seems like the Forthcoming Criterion List has gotten longer and longer over the years, and titles often sit on it for 18 months - 2 years, and that includes the "certainties" portion. It seems likely the work it took to develop the new Blu-Ray line probably has been at least partly responsible for the lapse in Eclipse releases, as well as delays with who knows what else. But there's nothing I can do to change this, so there is no point in my lamenting the fact that we haven't seen announcements for the Human Condition trilogy, the Ophüls set, and on and on.

[El Manchego]

It is capitalism 101 that if a product is "inferior" within the product lineup, then the company can no longer charge top dollar for it.

Economically speaking, that is inaccurate.

Personally I'm somewhat disappointed by this announcement coming so soon due to the fact that I'm already behind technology wise, but I hope for Criterion's sake that this does well and opens up the catalog to even more titles, SD or BR.

[kevyip1]

The extras on the blu-ray "Last Emperor" will probably be SD. So I'm glad they'll put out a barebone blu-ray disc of the film -- for those who already bought the 4-disc SD edition. I hope the audio commentary would still going to be on the blu-ray edition.

Re. blu-ray packaging, my guess is it will be similar to SD, at least for the upcoming releases. I don't see them shrinking all the booklets (especially the thicker ones like the one for "The Last Emperor") to make them fit into the smaller size of a typical blu-ray case.

Fortunately, most of the upcoming blu-ray titles are ones I haven't bought.

[Darth Lavender]

Actually I haven't happily been paying the Criterion costs. I always buy my Criterions during the May and November 20% sales. They are way overpriced in my opinion.

On a tangent, I get most of my Criterions from DVDPacific. They're always about 33% cheaper. Excellent delivery times, and fine customer service. But, reportedly, terrible returns policy (I suppose that's somewhat understandable, if they're making less per-item than, say, Amazon (and, if I understand correctly, it's the store itself that has to pay for a replacement, etc.) But I think even if I did end up having to buy a DVD twice (I haven't,) it still works out fine in the context of all the other money I save there.)

What I was saying was don't subsidize the BluRay experiment with the continued high costs of the SD releases. That is unfair to those of us content with SD. It is capitalism 101 that if a product is "inferior" within the product lineup, then the company can no longer charge top dollar for it. If the BluRay releases will retail for $39.95 than the SD releases should plummet in their MSRP.

I don't think there is any subsidising involved.
Like I said, the cost of making a Bluray release (having already created the SD) is so relatively minor, that I'm sure it will be covered by people buying those Blurays (I doubt Criterion would releasing Bluray, otherwise)

But, more to the point, if Criterion were subsidising their Blurays with the SD profits, then they would have had to actually increase the price of the SD disks (which they, of course, haven't) Remember, Criterion SD prices have stayed the same for almost a decade, with no hint of getting any cheaper in the future.

But, finally, to the basic idea of 'capitalism 101.' While that point is debatable (there are other issues, cost of production, supply and demand, etc.) I think that while one could call Bluray the superior product (for its resolution, etc.) one could also make an argument that SD DVD is the 'superior' product, for its superior compatibility, etc. (quite simply, there are more ways to watch a DVD... Computers, car-players, a friend's house, etc. I can only watch my HD-DVDs on the one player)
Alternatively, one might argue that a lot of these Blurays will be "repurchases" and are thus less valuable (to the consumer who already has Man Who Fell To Earth in SD) than a new, SD, Criterion.

[Perkins Cobb]

I guess the big question (at least for me), what will the total release slate look like come fall? Will it still be 3-5 new-to-DVD titles in the SD format plus a batch of BluRay upgrades each month, or will they all be competing for the same slots?

If it's the latter, that'll be a big mess - a lot of us on both sides of the divide won't be getting what we want fast enough, or at all.

[swo17]

If I recall, part of the reason DVDs were such a success was that they were initially priced competitively with VHS. If BDs cost the same as DVDs, more people are more likely to buy them, and the format is more likely to survive, which I believe is a good thing for movie collectors, even if BD is eventually replaced with something better, because at least that is better than the alternative: people settling with SD forever. Besides, it's not like they're raising the price of SD to the level of BD. If you keep buying SD and trying to pretend that Blu-ray technology does not exist, you will likely be able to fool yourself for quite some time.

Incidentally, capitalism isn't based on fairness. People don't cry fowl on companies and demand discounts for their inferior products. They just stop buying the inferior products, until eventually, the inferior products are pushed out of the market.

Finally, I would also just like to put in my two cents and say that I would readily buy up any of the following BDs in a heartbeat (and I don't even have a player yet):

anything by Tarkovsky
anything by Terrence Malick
Playtime
Ran
Lawrence of Arabia
Apocalypse Now
Last Year at Marienbad (though I'd settle for any format of this one)

[StevenJ0001]

Despite all the complaints (which the complainers have every right to make), I just think this is incredibly exciting news. =D>

The Blu-Ray market is almost completely dominated by mainstream blockbusters and crowd-pleasers. To be able to get a film like Contempt in high def (just to pick one example) is enough to make me invest in a Blu-Ray player in the near future.

And when I hear people say that an upscaled DVD is "close to HD quality," or words to that effect, I just ](*,) It's impossible for a standard def image made from a film source, whether it's 35mm or 16mm, to look anywhere near as good (in terms of detail, color depth, etc.) as a high def image made from same, unless there is something seriously wrong with the transfer or the equipment.

And every DVD one watches on a digital high def TV set is upscaled, whether one has an upscaling DVD player or not.

[/rant] :-#

[zedz]

This is exciting news (though I'm not a home cinema fanatic and probably won't be upgrading for a while - I prefer my hi-def on 35mm). This anouncement probably doubles the number of films available anywhere that I'd even want to see in the new format.

I share concerns about Criterion's resources being side-tracked into reissues / repackages, but hope that won't happen. In the past it's only taken a month or two of unexpected or ambitious releases to put paid to that kind of incipient doomsaying for six months or more.

I think the price issue is a red herring: an SD release of a given title is far more valuable to me than one on a format I can't play, so this is as personally irrelevant as Criterion selling new 35mm prints of their titles for $39.95 would be. If it's not worth it to you, don't buy it. Refusing to buy a title you want, for the same price as you would otherwise have willingly paid for it, simply because it's available at the same price on a technically superior format you can't access, is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Biggest surprise in this thread is the muted response to Criterion's announcement of Bottle Rocket after years of fruitless lusting all over this forum.

[cdnchris]

Biggest surprise in this thread is the muted response to Criterion's announcement of Bottle Rocket after years of fruitless lusting all over this forum.

That one was actually announced (though not by Criterion) months ago, so I think the excitement has subsided

[zedz]

Biggest surprise in this thread is the muted response to Criterion's announcement of Bottle Rocket after years of fruitless lusting all over this forum.

That one was actually announced (though not by Criterion) months ago, so I think the excitement has subsided

Ah, I see. I guess I should be grateful that I missed that particular kerfuffle.

[Luke M]

As an early Blu-ray/HD DVD adopter here are my thoughts...

The pricing strategy is great. Criterion Blu-rays at $39.99 MSRP is ridiculously awesome. Especially since Fox gets away with selling barebones crap catalog titles at the same price. And Sony actually releases new releases (Superbad, Walk Hard) at higher MSRPs. Criterion is setting a good trend with pricing blu-rays the same as their DVD counterparts. If every studio followed the trend Blu-ray would be much, much more popular.

Regarding the price, one of the reasons why I upgraded to High Definition was because I felt like buying a DVD was buying an inferior version. Criterion takes the idea to the nth level with their pricing scheme. I cannot fathom buying Bottle Rocket on DVD when the Blu-ray version of the exact same disc is exactly the same price. Perhaps others won't feel that way but I just couldn't do it.

I think it was to be expected Criterion would be re-releasing a ton of titles on Blu-ray. Every Criterion DVD that reads "taken from an HD master" is a prime candidate for Blu-ray. As someone who owns all but around 30 titles in the collection I have no plans to upgrade everything to Blu-ray. I like knowing titles are available to watch in 1080P but I don't feel the need to go out and rebuy them. I will be buying Chungking Express for the 3rd time and upgrading Contempt. Everything else is nice that it's there.

I like to think Criterion may be regretting their window boxing policy on 1.33:1 films. Now that Blu-ray and HDTVs are synomonous.

I hope this all works out for Criterion and they keep releasing more Blu-ray. Like another poster stated, I interpreted the newsletter that all these releases will start coming out in October not necessarily that they will all be released that month.

=D> Criterion

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

It is capitalism 101 that if a product is "inferior" within the product lineup, then the company can no longer charge top dollar for it.

Economically speaking, that is inaccurate.

I guess it is inaccurate when it comes to poorly managed companies. Can you imagine Jeep charging more for the budget Patriot model than for the fully loaded Commander? People would walk off the lot shaking their heads. I can imagine many people shopping at Borders in early 2009 and they pick up a Criterion dvd title in BR and SD and look at the prices. They'll notice the price is the same and they'll think "Well, that's odd. The folks at criterion forum say BR is jaw-dropping and SD just doesn't cut it anymore. So why do I have to pay just as much for the SD?" Maybe a simplistic scenario but you get my drift.

On another note (kind of OT) I think Criterion should do what Paramount does with it's Star Trek titles. Jack up the price initially so all the hard-core people (i.e. us) will pay the $39.95 MSRP (even if we get it lower from an on-line source). Then a year after it's release date lower the price. Upon lowering the price they would move sick amounts of product where I'm sure older titles currently move at a trickle after that initial rush. I'm no management guru but it sounds like a good idea to this prole.

[fdm]

You're probably right. Imagine how much that flat screen LCD will cost these idiots after they pay it off via their mastercard years in the future. Compounding interest month after month at a whopping interest rate! They'll walk out of circuit city saying "Wow, only $1800 to join the HD revolution". But after years of carrying it on their card they'll pay 5k for that crap. Only pay with cash people!

No, plenty of 2-3yr, no interest deals out there. (Got my TV about a year and a half ago, no interest, 2yrs to pay.) Getting tired of payments so will probably pay it off within the next month.

[Morbii]

I guess it is inaccurate when it comes to poorly managed companies. Can you imagine Jeep charging more for the budget Patriot model than for the fully loaded Commander? People would walk off the lot shaking their heads.

This is a false analogy. You don't need to purchase anything external to reap the benefits of the better car. In order to enjoy Blu-Ray properly, you definitely do.

[Petty Bourgeoisie]

I guess it is inaccurate when it comes to poorly managed companies. Can you imagine Jeep charging more for the budget Patriot model than for the fully loaded Commander? People would walk off the lot shaking their heads.

This is a false analogy. You don't need to purchase anything external to reap the benefits of the better car. In order to enjoy Blu-Ray properly, you definitely do.

True, but many of those hypothetical border shoppers might already have a HD LCD and they bought their teenage son a PS3 last Christmas, so they are ready to rock. If one looks at it this way then it's conceivable that Criterion is TRYING to exit the SD market within 24-36 months. Because if they are priced the same, that Borders shopping mom would go for the BluRay. Of course I'm assuming alot in this scenario (starting with the assumption that Criterion WON'T lower the MSRP on SD). I'll bet they do lower the SD MSRP first quarter 2009 and all my rage will be misplaced. It just makes too much sense to do so.

[HerrSchreck]

Count me as one who was taken by surprise by this announcement. I guess their feelings are "the sd folks will keep on buying sd's, and the hd-o-philes who've been complaining can now be duly silenced with overwhelming screen-gazing techno-excitement".

If they start releasing HD-only titles at this juncture, however-- even if it's just a fraction of the line but ached-for titles like Rublev or more Mizo.. or god forbid a title like L'argent or Gueule D'amour-- I'd be pretty pissed, and would find it a weird biz move. Naturally because my hand would be forced smack in the middle of this fucking recession which sucks the outhouse pipe right now.

But I'm happy for all those who bought players & have hd screens.. should be a pleasure to actually watch something worth watching aside from an upscaled sd and one Seventh Seal disc!.