Kino and DVD Beaver

[GringoTex]

why he is condemning interlacing-- and creating the impression to newcomers that it is neither standard or obligatory in most, pre-1927/8 releases -- on Kino discs when it is overlooked in others.

Again, this is a line of bull and I don't know if you're repeating it out of willful misinterpretation or unwilling ignorance. Gary has recommended interlaced Kino discs. Gary has condemned interlaced discs by other companies. Obviously, interlacing is but one factor Gary considers when judging a disc. The constant of hypocrisy you're grasping for doesn't exist. Gary's boycott of Kino (which I think is seriously misguided, btw) doesn't have anything to with silent films anyway. It's because he reviewed one too many (in his estimate) unwatchable sound films, and he thinks its irresponsible of Kino to release them at such high price points.

[tryavna]

he thinks its irresponsible of Kino to release them at such high price points.

They charge Criterion-level prices for a near-PD-level quality.

I've heard this particular complaint about Kino's pricing quite a lot. And I think Gringo is right that it's the biggest sticking-point with Gary -- again, probably because he has to pay full RSP instead of getting free review copies. But realistically speaking, Kino almost never charges more than Criterion's lower price-tier ($30), and although their discs don't seem to get huge discounts online, nobody should be paying more than about $22-$23 per title -- and considerably less if they wait for sales. And contrary to what Sevenarts says, relatively few of Kino's releases are of PD quality. (Just look at Gary's comparisons of Kino's Scarlet Street to the real PD versions.) In fact, many of their titles are fairly comparable to Criterion's early lower-tier titles. I mean, Kino's Applause is about as good as Criterion's Clair titles. Criterion's Nanook is no more outstanding than the average American silent that Kino releases (the Griffiths, the Touneurs, etc.). Kino's Contraband is about on par with Criterion's Pygmalion or Summertime. Etc. The problem, of course, is that Kino has never made the great leap forward that Criterion did toward the end of 2002, and perhaps as Schreck argues, they never realistically could have.

I don't think that anyone is denying that Kino has issued some real clunkers or that they come anywhere near to Criterion or BFI in terms of realizing the full potential of DVD technology. I also think that most people here are in agreement that some sort of prejudice is keeping Kino from getting a fair shake at DVD Beaver (whether that fair shake is simply getting their product reviewed in the first place or it's a more problematic double-standard that Gary may be applying). Perhaps the easiest two solutions I've heard so far would be: (1) Kino sending free review copies to Gary, which they may understandably be reluctant to do considering the largely negative feedback Gary gives them; or (2) Gary allowing somebody who already owns a number of titles to make screencaps and offer as unbiased reviews as possible -- and perhaps establishing a fairer tone and attitude that would make Kino more likely to send review copies to that person.

Notice I'm not suggesting that we give Kino a free pass. God knows I've squealed about their awful Liliom before. But I think that somebody who is aware of the limitations and inherent problems of transferring silent film to DVD needs to be doing these sorts of reviews. And I agree that Silent-Era is a good resource, but they don't always review the technical qualities of discs -- and they certainly don't provide the extensive screencap comparisons that Gary does. John Sinnott over at DVD Talk might be a good candidate/model, but his "Silent DVD" column is updated very infrequently. There's obviously a big hole here that needs to be filled.

[HerrSchreck]

Yeah, I've had some suggestions that I do it-- either to do it in contribution with Gary by sending over the grabs/reviews, or start a new site in conjunction with another seasoned cineaste who also has a large silent collection-- and I would really love to.. but I just don't have the time. That's why I care so much about Gary's site. My goal here is not to tear Gary or his site, or start a fight. My goal was not to piss Gary off. My goal was to open a dialog and let some air into the subject of his silent reviews to find out what is and is not "acceptable" for a silent release. This way every silent release escapes certain technological "myths", and that, given a good picture quality, interlacing is not an issue for thumbs down. Or if it is thumbs down, it's thumbs down for every release... in which case well over 95% of dvd releases go into the dumper.

[SoyCuba]

Yes, Gary has every right not to buy Kino's discs if he's disappointed with the company and just doesn't wish to use money on their releases, and therefore we need people who do buy those discs to review them instead. I'd be willing to do some review's for DVDBeaver although, at the moment, I don't have that much free time either. And I don't have that many silent movie DVDs yet but I am planning to get a whole lot more.

So Gary, if you're even reading this thread anymore, don't be surprised if I contact you sometime in the future on this matter. I'm not an expert on technical aspects of DVDs, but I would definitely mention if a transfer is interlaced, and if so, how bad the combing is. I think I can also spot standards conversions and tell how much damage there is and so on.

[exte]

So Gary, if you're even reading this thread anymore...

I don't think he is...

[Gary Tooze]

You see the reviews (films) that many of you (Peerpee, Petty Bourgeoisie etc. ) look down your nose at ex. Top Gun, Death Proof, Planet Earth etc. are the reviews that pay for the site to exist. Our bandwidth/hosting bills each month often surpass what we 'bring in'... and yet many of you wish me to delve deeper into a niche that is not cost-effective. The site tries to cover and/or compare every single DVD releases of every important director that we can. It's a shame we can't do more.

Kino sends me nothing in the way of screeners and I still find their general DVD production at a premium cost for value received. I'm entitled to my opinion - so are you.

It's a big cinema world out there folks and I haven't, personally, educated myself in all the wonderful silent works available. I hope one day I will embrace your love for that genre. Right now its my site and I'm into sharing my passion for Film Noir, Antonioni, Bresson, Ozu etc. and cheesy 50's sci-fi films. If I'm going to continue to bust my ass for this site I'm going to have to have the ability to indulge in my own interests now and again or it will seem like 'a job' - working for $2/hour (literally). If it doesn't match your criteria - I'm sorry. Try to respect my position.

It's great that so many of you have so much advice on how to run DVDBeaver and what to review and what deserves accolades, but until you pay the bills and put the 50+ hours a week into the site then, for now, I will respectfully take your suggestions under advisement. Thank you for sharing them.

Gary Tooze

[HerrSchreck]

I'd volunteer the idea we take the unconventional step of locking this thread now... because, unlike other threads, the subject is a human being who we all know and who is present and in the background.. and as the subject gets hot, that person is going to react. I dont think the thread can go any further-- at least of benefit-- and its' bringing out the worst in some folks. Or I'd advise folks on the "silent film" side to let it lie. The points have been made-- healthy discussion within a community of likeminded folks is fine (which was the goal, like any thread here)... but folks are getting unusually hot here which wasn't the intended goal at all (which is why I went to another thread to respond to the daily provocateur). You people may see me getting colorful and wild on other threads but I don't think that's appropriate here... despite my comments viz silent film, this guy works his fucking ass off at a neverending clip.

I'll point out again Gary, if it's even neccessary, that I consider myself an ally (certainly not an enemy), that your site has saved me countless dollars of grief viz a huge dvd collection that would look a lot different were it not for your service, which I understand is basically thankless at least in terms of dollars and cents. The goal was not to question the value of your site, or bash it in sum, but to engage you on a specific technical topic (which, even if you reviewed every silent release that came out, would still only comprise a very tiny part of what you do there) and just have a regular criterionforum.org discussion about it. I think we've had that (to the degree that all are willing anyhow), so.... avanti, amico.

Cheers,

[tryavna]

Gary, I seem to recall that, in the past, you also asked for contributions from regular readers about once a year. Is that something you've abandoned altogether? Obviously, you don't want to make it a subscription service, which might be shooting yourself in the foot anyway. But I recall many long-time readers were perfectly willing to make a small donation to the generally valuable work you do.

Having worked for an Internet company before, I can certainly sympathize with the economic issues you're facing re. bandwidth. At the same time, I would think that you'd want to appear to be fairly open to feedback (both positive reinforcement and constructive criticism), and perhaps the old donation system would make regular readers feel more invested (literally) in your site -- just as so many are (perhaps overly) emotionally invested, too. Then again, maybe that's what you want to avoid....

EDIT: Just saw Schreck's post. Perhaps it is best to close the thread. Having reacted negatively myself in an earlier post, I'd agree that none of us are really meaning to upset or personally attack Gary.

[GringoTex]

As long as the myth that interlaced dvds of silent films is "standard" has been demolished, I say lock away.

[Matt]

Locked by popular demand, apparently.

But I would suggest that maybe a few of us independently contact Silent Era to see if they are amenable to attaching additional (and full-resulution) screen captures to their regular reviews.