Quentin Tarantino

[Narshty]

Seijun is pushing 90 but I think he has the chops to grab L'il Quentin and give him a good slapping to shake him out of it.

Suzuki's age also qualifies him under Tarantino's pointlessly jealous, empty criticism of directors who make films while over the age of 50. Maybe Quentin should spend less time copying everything Seijun did in the 60's and take a look at the far more accomplished work he did *IN* his 60's and beyond. Then again, he's probably only able to grasp or enjoy anything that Nikkatsu put out because it has gangsters and pop songs in them.

You've made this point before and I just don't see it. Where are these incidents of him "copying" Suzuki? Some specific scenes please.

[Suzukifan]

Tarantino's whole tongue-in-cheek tone is a direct reworking of Suzuki from Youth of the Beast through Tokyo Drifter.

Tarantino is never as off the wall funny as the "hit up the drainpipe" but that's simply because he doesn't have the imagination.

It's that sarcastic detached tone that Tarantino attempts. Not that it isn't entertaining but it's definitely second tier. The problem with Tarantino is the throng that just hangs on his every word and his next project.

He's a mass market director and the mass market has to regress to the mean. That is absolutely demanded by the economics and you end up having to "settle" for something.

Yojimbo ===> Fist Full of Dollars ===> Last Man Standing.

Now Fist Full of Dollars was a real fun ride but by the time the theme got to Bruce Willis it became mediocre. L'il Quentin is on the Bruce Willis end of the time line.

[skuhn8]

It's that sarcastic detached tone that Tarantino attempts. Not that it isn't entertaining but it's definitely second tier. The problem with Tarantino is the throng that just hangs on his every word and his next project.

He's a mass market director and the mass market has to regress to the mean. That is absolutely demanded by the economics and you end up having to "settle" for something.

So you think that Tarantino 'settles'? See, I don't see that at all. Not one bit. In fact, all evidence points to the contrary (ok, I don't have any evidence per se, but Jackie Brown certainly doesn't feel like an exercise). As I said on my previous post, the guy is making the kind of films he himself loves to watch. At least I gather this from what I've seen. Honestly, I'm not into Tarantino's films (the films that he seems to draw most of his influence from), I don't care at all for grindhouse flicks and probably won't see Grindhouse until it hits the bargain bins here at Tesco. But judging from Reservoir Dogs, Pulp, and Jackie Brown the guy is progressing. I think he's hit some kind of creative wading pool where he's wallowing a bit (my impression from Kill Bill 2) but that he's just finishing an early phase in what will probably be a long career.

But this is an interesting line:

The problem with Tarantino is the throng that just hangs on his every word and his next project.

Do you feel that this throng has an overt influence on QT's filmmaking? If so, how and why do you think that? IS there evidence in the films themselves? Or if not that, are you perhaps condemning the director for the silliness of his fans?

[Suzukifan]

No, it's not that Tarantino "settles". His viewers do the settling.

Tarantino is simply working a tradition that has been done far better.

I think his films are worth watching once but they aren't particularly creative and certainly aren't anything new.

[skuhn8]

No, it's not that Tarantino "settles". His viewers do the settling.

Tarantino is simply working a tradition that has been done far better.

I think his films are worth watching once but they aren't particularly creative and certainly aren't anything new.

So when you saw Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction you thought "ahh, old hat"? I obviously wasnt' there when you walked out of the theatre but I'm willing to gamble that your reaction was more enthusiastic then. Presumptuous I know, but I a lot of the animosity seems to be based on embarrassment at having once been part of that zealous throng. I totally ignore that stuff; if every ass clown, country dullard, and Beavis/Butthead suddenly decided that I Know Where I'm Going was the greatest thing since power steering it wouldn't change my view on the film itself.

[Suzukifan]

Not really much enthusiasm for "Pulp Fiction". It was ok and there were a couple moments, the adrenaline shot and the story of the watch. Otherwise...the whole story of "The Wolf". Really, you've got a dead guy in the car so you call someone to take it to the car crusher. Didn't rock my boat.

The dance number with Thurman? I'll take Karina in either "My Life to Live" or "Band of Outsiders". Much sexier.

All of a sudden Jules gets religion and starts quoting hunks of scripture. Sorry Quentin, you have to earn that scene with some kind of development. unless we should bow as you go through your Bresson epiphany.

Overall I find Tarantino's dialogue juvenile. He is fascinated by tough talking black men but you don't have much trouble spotting dialogue that was written by jive whitebread.

Interesting stuff in "Pulp Fiction" ... his fascination with toilets as plot devices. I don't really want to think about it but it might make a good graduate thesis and his fascination with the Deliverance theme transposed to a black guy. To be blunt, a white guy trying so hard to be black? Bore me later.

Nope not much happening. Can't say his camera ever really gets in gear. I've lived in the inner city most of my life and his slumming is more offensive than interesting.

It's as phony as Steven Spielberg making "Private Ryan". Guys trying to be authentic tough and then falling back on every cliche in the book.

Tarantino doesn't make bad films but there just isn't anything groundbreaking.

[domino harvey]

The dance number with Thurman? I'll take Karina in either "My Life to Live" or "Band of Outsiders". Much sexier.

I am not sure where to begin correcting the assumptions in this post, but this paragraph is something else.

[toiletduck!]

Tarantino doesn't make bad films but there just isn't anything groundbreaking.

Spreaking from a completely unprovocatory tone, what recent contemporary filmmakers do you see as groundbreaking? And even further, perhaps, groundbreaking with a somewhat high level of recognition?

Your raising up of artists past is one approach to criticism of artists present and future, and a very widely used one at that, but it has always appeared to me to be detrimental to the continuation of the (any) form. Most people who take this approach don't want groundbreaking per se, they want groundbreaking like Godard was groundbreaking, or groundbreaking like Suzuki was groundbreaking.

Tarantino very vocally confesses to the influences/homages/thefts in his films, but this does not mean that his work is identical (or even striving to be identical) to the originals. The fact remains that a Tarantino scene created through a Suzuki filter is exactly that, and as Suzuki films are obviously not created through a Suzuki filter, they are destined to be entirely different beasts. Tarantino is creating cinematic love letters in a style that no one has created cinematic love letters before. Whether or not you enjoy them is your own business, but I am curious as to who else has broken this ground before Quentin.

-Toilet Dcuk

[skuhn8]

Not really much enthusiasm for "Pulp Fiction". It was ok and there were a couple moments, the adrenaline shot and the story of the watch. Otherwise...the whole story of "The Wolf". Really, you've got a dead guy in the car so you call someone to take it to the car crusher. Didn't rock my boat.

The dance number with Thurman? I'll take Karina in either "My Life to Live" or "Band of Outsiders". Much sexier.

All of a sudden Jules gets religion and starts quoting hunks of scripture. Sorry Quentin, you have to earn that scene with some kind of development. unless we should bow as you go through your Bresson epiphany.

Overall I find Tarantino's dialogue juvenile. He is fascinated by tough talking black men but you don't have much trouble spotting dialogue that was written by jive whitebread.

Interesting stuff in "Pulp Fiction" ... his fascination with toilets as plot devices. I don't really want to think about it but it might make a good graduate thesis and his fascination with the Deliverance theme transposed to a black guy. To be blunt, a white guy trying so hard to be black? Bore me later.

Nope not much happening. Can't say his camera ever really gets in gear. I've lived in the inner city most of my life and his slumming is more offensive than interesting.

It's as phony as Steven Spielberg making "Private Ryan". Guys trying to be authentic tough and then falling back on every cliche in the book.

Tarantino doesn't make bad films but there just isn't anything groundbreaking.

I don't mean to be dismissive, especially since you've taken the time. But what I see above doesn't hold water. None of it. You're jumping all over what you believe are his intentions/ his background/and the very linear notion of the time/space continuum. Anna Karina laid down an iconic (lights are going off somewhere!) dance sequence forty years ago, so now all subsequent dance sequences are superflous and bullshit? No, that just isn't fair. We can do that to every director. If Godard was in a chatty mood he'd probably tell you where he ripped that off from. The very fact that Tarantino places it in a 50's nostalgic diner and caps on it, should allow us to give him a little credit. Every cool little gambit can probably be traced to something before. Too much of this reeks of taking potshots at the big chin plastered on the billboard. As to the dialogue he uses, it's a modern take on classic hard-boiled. No bones there.

[Suzukifan]

I think it's valid to bring up Karina because Tarantino sculpted Thurman to look exactly like Karina...right down to the haircut. If you want to be derivative...then take it somewhere. If you want to quote be creative.

A creative quote? I'd pick something like the stolen library book in Celine and Julie Go Boating. A funny tip of the hat to Feuillade's serials that enhances the tone of the film.

The fact that someone like Tarantino can draw such a crowd does fascinate me. What is it about a guy who really isn't all that and a bag of chips that get's people going?

I can't apologize. If he's the future, I'll take the past.

[Fletch F. Fletch]

I think it's valid to bring up Karina because Tarantino sculpted Thurman to look exactly like Karina...right down to the haircut. If you want to be derivative...then take it somewhere. If you want to quote be creative.

Not to mention, Tarantino said on Letterman when Pulp Fiction came out that he ripped off the dance Travolta and Thurman do from the Disney flick, The AristoCats.

[Suzukifan]

skuhn8, I don't know how much jumping around his background I do but I don't sense any authenticity in his dialogue.

I would pick something like "Mystic River" (which is very close to home) as aunthentic but Tarantino, sorry, to my ear it's not someone who wants to parody but rather someone desperately trying to be a tough persona. I think that comes out in his very nervous manic behavior when he's interviewed.

[sevenarts]

The dance number with Thurman? I'll take Karina in either "My Life to Live" or "Band of Outsiders". Much sexier.

I am not sure where to begin correcting the assumptions in this post, but this paragraph is something else.

I've always been a bit baffled by the assertions that that dance number was taken from Godard. The earlier quote from The Conformist is really obvious and a direct quote, but that diner dance contest? Other than the superficial similarity of it being a dance scene, it doesn't bear much relation to either of the Godard films it's often compared to. Band of Outsiders may have been the inspiration, but the dance in Tarantino's film is different enough to not really be called a quote.

[GringoTex]

I thought it was obvious the dance contest scene was a Saturday Night Fever quote.

[Narshty]

Tarantino's whole tongue-in-cheek tone is a direct reworking of Suzuki from Youth of the Beast through Tokyo Drifter.

So the entire tone of his films has nothing to do with any other director or any other film? Not Godard, not Howard Hawks, not Brian de Palma, absolutely no-one other? Without wanting to sound rude, I think you're simply giving evidence of your own limited frame of reference rather than Tarantino's.

It's that sarcastic detached tone that Tarantino attempts. Not that it isn't entertaining but it's definitely second tier. The problem with Tarantino is the throng that just hangs on his every word and his next project.

As opposed to someone who laughably overestimates Suzuki's influence to make an almost non-existant point?

I'm still waiting for a semi-plausible argument as to how Tarantino is supposedly xeroxing Suzuki's work. I see way more Suzuki in Wes Anderson or Spike Jonze than I do in Tarantino.

[The Elegant Dandy Fop]

Yeah, I agree with Narshty. Not many 60's Suzukisms in any of his films. I see plenty of refrences to other films, and not much on Suzuki. The closest I feel it get's it the the scene in Kill Bill vol.1 where they turn of the lights in the House of BLue Leave and they fight in the dark. Besides, there's a whole lagacy of asian action flicks he took from, not just Suzuki.

Even the dance scene you mention he stole straight from Godard is completly diffrent. The mood, the way it happens, pretty much everything. He might of taken the idea of dancing in the middle of a non-musical, but besides that, no simularities.

There's also the question about his power to bring people to watch his movies. Love the guy or not, he has the power to do it, and it's really simple. His movies are the over the top films people like to see. Honestly there isn't a huge audience for Celine and June, but a huge one for a girl killing people with a samurai sword.

Like Skun8 said, no one thinks after seeing his movies it's the "same ol' shit". All the movie critics that knew several of the refrences didn't even think it.

I'm indiffrent to the guy, but you can't bring him down completly because he's used a couple ideas from other films. Stealing from others happens all the time.

[domino harvey]

I think it's valid to bring up Karina because Tarantino sculpted Thurman to look exactly like Karina...right down to the haircut. If you want to be derivative...then take it somewhere. If you want to quote be creative.

Teach me, I want to learn.

[exte]

No, it's not that Tarantino "settles". His viewers do the settling.

Tarantino is simply working a tradition that has been done far better.

I think his films are worth watching once but they aren't particularly creative and certainly aren't anything new.

Why don't you tell that to the Criterion Collection, since they saw it fit to release Pulp Fiction on CAV laserdisc. Basically, all the extra features on the SE DVD are from Criterion, save for the DTS track...

All of a sudden Jules gets religion and starts quoting hunks of scripture. Sorry Quentin, you have to earn that scene with some kind of development. unless we should bow as you go through your Bresson epiphany.

It's in the culmination of the first sequence following the opening credits. Did you even watch the film? It works even when you watch it chronologically, out of its circular structure.

Overall I find Tarantino's dialogue juvenile. He is fascinated by tough talking black men but you don't have much trouble spotting dialogue that was written by jive whitebread.

Interesting stuff in "Pulp Fiction" ... his fascination with toilets as plot devices. I don't really want to think about it but it might make a good graduate thesis and his fascination with the Deliverance theme transposed to a black guy. To be blunt, a white guy trying so hard to be black? Bore me later.

Nope not much happening. Can't say his camera ever really gets in gear. I've lived in the inner city most of my life and his slumming is more offensive than interesting.

It's as phony as Steven Spielberg making "Private Ryan". Guys trying to be authentic tough and then falling back on every cliche in the book.

Tarantino doesn't make bad films but there just isn't anything groundbreaking.

Your whole post is ridiculous! Don't drag Spielberg in here when it's not needed. Your commentary on his dialogue is the weakest, most trite thing I've ever read on Tarantino. It's a joke. You're just a troll, nothing more.

Tarantino very vocally confesses to the influences/homages/thefts in his films, but this does not mean that his work is identical (or even striving to be identical) to the originals.

Where were you when someone here called it tracework?

Tarantino is creating cinematic love letters in a style that no one has created cinematic love letters before. Whether or not you enjoy them is your own business, but I am curious as to who else has broken this ground before Quentin.

Exactly. Isn't it called postmodernism, in fact?

What is it about a guy who really isn't all that and a bag of chips that get's people going?

What is that supposed to imply, exactly? If you're once again proclaiming that he's white, and not black, then I quote you from his playboy interview:

PLAYBOY : You sparred with Spike Lee over your liberal use of the word nigger in your films. Did that feud also go by the wayside?
TARANTINO : It didn't go by the wayside per se. Spike and I bumped into each other once after all that crap was over, and I was all set to kick his ass.

PLAYBOY : Why?
TARANTINO : Because he'd been talking all this shit instead of talking to me about it. My biggest problem with Spike was the completely self-serving aspect of his argument. He attacked me to keep his "Jesse Jackson of cinema" status. Basically, for a little bit of time before I came along, you had to get Spike Lee's benediction and approval if you were white and dealing with black stuff in a movie. Fuck that. This destroyed that, and he's never had that position again. I wasn't looking for his approval, and so he was taking me on to keep his status. I hated it, because a celebrity feud is one of the most tasteless, trite, trivial things somebody in my position can engage in, to be drawn into something so beneath you.

PLAYBOY : Do you think some of his arguments had merit?
TARANTINO : It's funny, because he talks in these grandiose terms, but as much of a loudmouth as he can be, the press doesn't really listen to what he says. They print his tone. If you boiled down what he was saying, it wasn't that I didn't have the right to say "nigger" as many times as I did. It was why do I have the right to say "nigger" 37 times, but he doesn't have the right to say "kike" 37 times? That is really what he was saying.

PLAYBOY : He did get flack for using two stereotypical Jewish characters in Mo' Better Blues .
TARANTINO : The words nigger and kike are not the same word. Kike is not common parlance among Jews. The other word has maybe 12 different meanings, depending on the context it's spoken in, who is saying it and the way he's saying it. So to equate nigger with kike does not take into account the way the English language works today. And I am working with the English language.

I am not just a film director who shoots movies. I'm an artist, and good, bad or indifferent, I'm coming from that place. All my choices, the way I live my life, are about that. He came back with, "Quentin isn't any more of an artist than Michael Jackson is, and when Michael said 'Jew me' in a song, they made him change it." It was almost worth the whole damn thing to hear him say that.

He's good at what he does, and he doesn't give a shit if he's white or black, and he certainly doesn't feel he needs to ask anyone's permission to do what he does. Why don't you research a little, and maybe you'll find out how Ving Rhames actually thanked Quentin for the role while most other black men ran screaming from the rape scene. To Mr Rhames, it provided a moment of vulnerability, he said, which he rarely get, if ever...

[sevenarts]

I thought it was obvious the dance contest scene was a Saturday Night Fever quote.

Yes, that too of course, and working quite nicely with Travolta's iconic history. And yet every critic around seems to love whipping out the Godard comparisons.

[DrewReiber]

You've made this point before and I just don't see it. Where are these incidents of him "copying" Suzuki? Some specific scenes please.

For some of the most obvious examples, watch Tattooed Life, followed by Dusk Till Dawn and Kill Bill. The saddest part is that the movies he uses the most for reference are not only far fewer than one might expect, but repeatedly. I'm sorry if this is not more specific, but proving something others can see for themselves isn't worth my going through and creating specific shot comparisons.

Also, I would like to add that Tarantino has been specifically called on regarding his lifting of Suzuki's work, in material ranging from the press material on Princess Raccoon, to the HVE liner notes provided by critics, and even in interviews where he completely dodged the question. It's not just some minor note that pops up in forums like this, it's widely noticed and acknowledged among Asian film scholars.

[domino harvey]

Though I know Tarantino (please, all of you, drop the First Name Basis discussion of the man) is a vocal fan of Godard (tho God only knows what he takes away from the films... "the French are so cool"?), it never occurred to me that the dance sequence was supposed to be primarily either a homage or sexy/cool. To me it seemed obvious that Vega participates in the dance contest out of obligation to show his boss's wife a good time, even as he's aware that she's forced him into the dance competition to kind of toy with him. It's a keenly observed, intentionally joyless sequence that causes the viewer unease. As much as I dislike Tarantino's public persona and much of his output, I'll concede that Pulp Fiction is a flawed, uneven, but often genius film.

As a side note, I'd be hard-pressed to name a more important film from the 90s in terms of influence on popular cinema than Pulp Fiction. I'm (definitely) not saying the film is the best of anything, but it certainly ensured Tarantino some degree of infamy as we all experienced Mad Dog Time and 2 Days in the Valley and Thursday and and and dozens more for years to come. (Well, okay, maybe no one experienced Mad Dog Time)

[jon]

I always thought the dance scene was an homage to Band of Outsiders based on the conversation that takes place directly before it. The part Thurman and Travolta have a moment of silence is the same as the "minute" of silence in Band of Outsiders where the audio is cut. Silence-->Dance

[domino harvey]

I just re-watched the sequence for this thread and I maintain that any similarities between Band of Outsiders and Pulp Fiction are purely coincidental, particularly their respective "silence" scenes.

[Antoine Doinel]

Suzukifan, I dislike Tarantino as well, but the way you're framing your arguments make you come off as immature. Pulp Fiction - flawed or not - is an extremely important film from the '90s and along with Reservoir Dogs really made "independent film" a viable and valued niche. Say what you will about the films, but they do have very strong moments in each. I'm not sure how well they've aged particularly, but they marked a very strong shift in the cinematic landscape.

As for Tarantino, I really didn't start to dislike him until after Jackie Brown. For me, it's not really Tarantino's "theft" that bothers me but so much his current inability to self-edit. Both Kill Bill and Death Proof to me play like exhausting journeys into Tarantino's fetishes rather than offering compelling or interesting stories.

I don't think it's suprising that Tarantino's best film (IMO), Jackie Brown, is the one whose origins came from something he didn't write. Yes, he made changes, but I think having an outline of the book helped him stay on track and he made a very strong film that for me holds up much better than Pulp Fiction.

[jon]

I just re-watched the sequence for this thread and I maintain that any similarities between Band of Outsiders and Pulp Fiction are purely coincidental, particularly their respective "silence" scenes.

He did name his company after Band of Outsiders...there's something there even if you don't think Pulp Fiction pays any homage to Band of Outsiders, whatsoever. He obviously loves the film, and it is a pretty big coincidence to have both the company and the silence/dance scene.