The Lists Project

[mikeohhh]

Holy shit, Bad Luck Blackie made the list!

[souvenir]

Night and the City wasn't eligible since it's from 1950.

I am stunned that The Great Dictator didn't make the list, especially after it ranking at 29 last time around. Has Chaplin really fallen out of favor so much? I'm not sure it needs to be defended as a darling since I thought it was universally regarded as an unimpeachable classic, but I can't deny being a little disappointed.

[Arcadean]

Monsieur Verdoux was 32 on the final list. It was #2 on my own list.

[zedz]

Ditto Daisy Kenyon, my favorite Preminger from a very strong decade for this director. Again am I the only vote? And is its absence from DVD an issue?

You were indeed the only Daisy picker. A very big darling to defend, or panda to console, there.

[zedz]

I am stunned that The Great Dictator didn't make the list, especially after it ranking at 29 last time around. Has Chaplin really fallen out of favor so much? I'm not sure it needs to be defended as a darling since I thought it was universally regarded as an unimpeachable classic, but I can't deny being a little disappointed.

It looks to me like The Great Dictator has become one of those 'received classics' that people respect more than they like. It actually appeared on a healthy number of lists (6), but, with a single exception, fairly low down, and ended up 3 votes short of the top 100.

Rossellini's 40s output seemed to share a similar fate. For acknowledged Classics of World Cinema, these films ranked much lower than I would have expected. Lang also fared poorly. Six films were nominated, but only three reached the two-vote threshold, and only one made the final list (and that one's run was very late).

[jonp72]

Bruce Conner, A Movie (RealMovie format)
Stan Brakhage, Wedlock House: An Intercourse
Stan Brakhage, Desistfilm
Stan Brakhage, Cat's Cradle
Hans Richter, the Queening of the Pawn (from 8 X 8: A Chess Sonata)
Hans Richter, The Fatal Move (from 8 X 8: A Chess Sonata)
Hans Richter, the Self-Imposed Obstacle (from 8 X 8: A Chess Sonata)
Harry Smith, Color Study (music added)
Harry Smith, Number 11: Mirror Animation
Kenneth Anger, Rabbit's Moon
Kenneth Anger, Eaux d'Artifice
Maya Deren, The Very Eye of Night
Jean Genet, Un Chant d'Amour
Walerian Borowczyk and Jan Lenica, Dom
Walerian Borowczyk and Chris Marker, Les Astronautes
Guy Debord, Hurlements en Faveur du Sade

[redbill]

Is there a way we can put the new lists in the 1st post of this thread, or in a new stricky thread?

[tryavna]

I think I understand what you mean by Stevens signalling to his audience that they are about to see "important" films (not sure I would use the word "piety" though). Shane, Sun and Giant all deal with "darker social" issues. You have immigration in Shane, social inequality and sex in Sun, and you have a number of different issues going on in Giant -- gender and race equality amongst them. But is it not the total vision of America in these films that is interesting? If you look at the depiction of the American society in these films as compared to that of films of the earlier decades, and of course Stevens own films, it is radically different, challenging the American ideals and identity of the post-war era.

Try I certainly agree Stevens' post conversion pictures are heavy-handed (there are always great things in them like Rocks wondeful underrated performance in Giant) but the totality!

Don't you find, however, the same tendency to slow delivery and lengthy timing in the 30s pictures? While Swingtime for instance is held up as the primo Astaire Rogers pic I really find the comic timing sluggish to the point of airless. The dance sequences work far better. And for screwball 30s there are better and pacier directors - la Cava, Leisen, Hawks, Sturges (as writer), McCarey.

Scharph and David, I meant to respond before the list was announced, so I'll try to fit this post uncomfortably among all the interesting discussion....

You both raise interesting points about the totality of Stevens' output and that may very well force me to rewatch and reevaluate his later films. (By the same token, however, when someone talks about a filmmaker's "totality," I always get the feeling that his movies are more interesting to talk about than actually sit down and watch!)

The reason I use the word piety is because I think it's appropriate insofar as I see Stevens' later work building up to The Greatest Story Ever Told, which is nothing if not pius. Heavy-handed may be the more appropriate word, though. At any rate, I'm just not convinced by the plodding intensity of some of Stevens' pictures: Greatest Story, Diary of Anne Frank, and (yes, even) Shane. The pay-off just isn't there for me.

David, I know how you feel about Swing Time, and I don't disagree. Nor would I claim that early Stevens is better than La Cava or McCarey at their best or Hawks in general. However, during 1939-43, Stevens really hit his stride, and the movies he made in that period (Gunga Din, Woman of the Year, The More the Merrier, and The Talk of the Town) hold up extremely well. And of course, these films are only on the borderline of being "screwball." What makes them particularly interesting to me is that they anticipate the shift from the pre-war screwball style to the more "realistic" (for lack of a better word) domestic comedies of the post-war era.

[HerrSchreck]

I agree that the more folks finally get to see BRUTE FORCE, the higher it will creep. I can't imagine the Criterion will change any minds versus an R1: BICYCLE THIEVES, which just came out on CC (in fact I don't even think it's"officially out" though I coulda grabbed one yest) still scored predictably high though the scratchy old Image is all we've had for years. And the R1 Image BRUTE is the same transfer on the old Kino vhs which I've had, and really isn't all that bad-- certainly doesn't interfere with your appreciation of the film. I just think the disc has been oop for so long (and for awhile commanding ridiculous proces on ebat) that very few people have seen the film.

This also proves that more people need to see Ingster's THE STRANGER ON THE 3RD FLOOR.. hopefully someday we'll get a disc on this fabulous film someday. This is Nick Musaraca's CITIZEN KANE. And one of the sadder, but better, uses of a drug addled, skinny Lorre.

Molto grazie, zedz my good man.

[foggy eyes]

Alongside Stranger on the Third Floor (which is fantastic, and I imagine that its exclusion has much to do with the fact that so little is known about Boris Ingster), I'm staggered that Hawks's blinding Ball of Fire hasn't received a mention. Terrifcally pleased to see Caught and Christmas in July sneaking in there (although odd that the latter one has nudged out Miracle, it is often overlooked and remains my favourite Sturges picture). A very very good list, mind.

[zedz]

1950s List

I'm happy to continue compiling, unless somebody else is dead keen to take over. On the current timetable, votes will be due at the end of May.

Normal rules apply. This means that, for example, Lang's Indian films can be voted for as a single entity (I'm sure this will be relevant for some of us), but the films of Ray's Apu Trilogy need to be voted for individually.

Four films that were voted for in the 1940s were classified by imdb as 1950, so they're all eligible this time around. They are:
Gun Crazy (Lewis)
Orphee (Cocteau)
The Gunfighter (King)
Stage Fright (Hitchcock)

Based on the last vote, it's probably also useful to remind voters that Breathless is 1960.

If anybody can think of any other oddities or imdb traps, post them here. All other 1950s list discussion (or suggestions) should take place in a separate discussion thread, which I'll inaugurate unless somebody beats me to it. If the mods (or jonp) can manage it, it would be great to relocate jonp's helpful short film list to that thread as well.

[Roger_Thornhill]

I'm staggered that Hawks's blinding Ball of Fire hasn't received a mention.

I completely agree, a very under appreciated Hawks' classic.

This is a bit off topic, but I just wanted to mention to anyone who lives in the Washington, DC metro area that Ball of Fire will be playing at the AFI Silver in Silver Spring, Maryland from February 11 - 13.

[jonp72]

Here are some more films that may cause some IMDB-related chronological disputes:

The Flowers of St. Francis aka Francis, God's Jester (1950)
Throne of Blood (1957, although not shown in U.S. til the 1960s)
Shadows (1959, although listed by Rosenbaum & other sources as 1960)

In addition, Jonathan Rosenbaum lists Michael Powell's Peeping Tom as a 1959 film, but IMDB lists it as 1960.

[zedz]

Here are some more films that may cause some IMDB-related chronological disputes:

The Flowers of St. Francis aka Francis, God's Jester (1950)
Throne of Blood (1957, although not shown in U.S. til the 1960s)
Shadows (1959, although listed by Rosenbaum & other sources as 1960)

In addition, Jonathan Rosenbaum lists Michael Powell's Peeping Tom as a 1959 film, but IMDB lists it as 1960.

Thanks jon.

As we are beholden to imdb and its vagaries, the top 3 are all in the running but Peeping Tom isn't. US release date is irrelevant unless imdb is silly enough to use that in the place of the actual original release.

I just remembered another one which tricked me last time around. Brakhage's Window Water Baby Moving is 1959 according to just about everybody (including the Criterion disc, I think), but it's 1962 on imdb, and thus ineligible this decade.

[zedz]

More 1950s housekeeping. The point is probably moot, but someone might be considering some TV for their list (I doubt that Quatermass and the Pit would make mine, but the thought had crossed my mind).

According to recently-minted tradition, one-off TV movies, teleplays and specials are eligible, as are mini-series. Television series, or individual episodes of series, are not eligible.

[zedz]

From the '50s discussion thread:

Can't we extend the due date for our lists until after Late Ozu is released?

The cut-off date is immaterial to me (and I'm actually going to be away at the time, so the compiling will be delayed anyway), so if there's support for this proposal I'm happy to go with it.

Late Ozu is due out on 12 June, so I'd suggest the end of the following weekend (24 June) as an alternative date. This should give non-US voters a chance as well.

Voters, speak your brains!

[zedz]

Well, I've had a trickle of votes in support of extending the cutoff date to July 1 and otherwise an ocean of apathy, so I hereby despotically declare July 1 to be the new cutoff date for 1950s lists.

[HerrSchreck]

Vicious dictator. Hilter! As if we all don't already know you're a mind-reader anyhow, so why did you even solicit opinions?

(For my part I just read the penultimate zedz post, but coming late to this whole issue, I think the late-ozu thing a decent enough idea, even though I'm probably ready to vote anyhoo.)

[zedz]

Reminder that the due date for lists is July 1.

I will be offline for several weeks, so if you PM me your list and I don't respond, don't worry.

[Lemmy Caution]

Thanks for the reminder.
I find the 50's to be quite a pretty wide-open decade, and am not sure if I can whittle it down into a coherent list. But will put more focus on watching 50's films, and try to make the deadline.

[zedz]

FIRST REMINDER:

Lists are due at the end of the month, which gives you all a little more than a fortnight to finalise your choices.

[zedz]

A week and a half to go, and five lists have been received and compiled so far.

Voting is very diverse. Over 160 titles have been nominated, but only 53 so far have appeared on more than one list, and there remain some surprising omissions at this stage.

That said, the current top ten is unassailably canonical, with one possible exception. Only one title has appeared on every list received, and it's safely ahead of the number two choice. No prizes for guessing what it is.

The top 10 is US-dominated (but with a good spread of genres) apart from two (obvious) Japanese titles and two French ones (slightly less obvious and by the same director).

As usual, those who have already voted can PM me for the provisional list (but be aware that it's nowhere near as wacky as the one we had for the 40s at a similar juncture).

Administrative note: Several lists have come through with non-50s inclusions. Remember that the imdb date is the rule, even if it's wrong. Checking against that will ensure a speedy collation of your valuable votes!

[zedz]

Penultimate Reminder

Less than a week to go! PM me with your 50 of the 50s or spend the rest of your life regretting the high placing of all those films you hate.

[Michael Kerpan]

Penultimate Reminder

Less than a week to go! PM me with your 50 of the 50s or spend the rest of your life regretting the high placing of all those films you hate.

Query -- 50 films-- ranked? -- or just listed?

[zedz]

Query -- 50 films-- ranked? -- or just listed?

Ranked, but there's no need to be slavish about it. The distance between my number 14 and number 37 film, for example, is likely to be very slender and could be obliterated with a second thought.

In the past some people have submitted "unranked" lists, but with the understanding that they'll be treated like any other list (i.e. number 1 gets 50 points and number 50 gets 1 point). It's still going to make for a stronger and more interesting final list.

If ranking is too painful, I'd suggest just grouping the films in groups of equivalent sublimity until you get to 50. The top dozen or so films on my list are pretty much equally important to me, and then there's a large second tier that fills up most of the rest of the list, with room for a few special oddities at the tail end. If somebody came along and randomly shuffled my list along those lines, I doubt I'd even be able to tell the difference.

So vote, vote, vote! The Crucified Lovers and Early Summer need your support!