The Loves of Pharaoh (Ernst Lubitsch, 1922)

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zedz
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#26 Post by zedz » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:19 pm

Okay, let's suppose (and I actually think this is a reasonable supposition) that the pricing of the Alpha/Omega disc is actually determined entirely by a break-even covering of costs, and that they're making no profit whatsoever on the disc at the current pricing level. Do you want the company to lose money on this restoration project simply to gratify your sense of entitlement (or 'fair pricing' or however you want to frame it)? We're talking an extremely marginal enterprise here: is it really a 'fair price' if it bankrupts the company?

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#27 Post by TMDaines » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:55 pm

I already made that same conjecture myself earlier:
TMDaines wrote:Of course if you go to all the effort of restoring a silent yourself and then only distributing it through your unknown website, instead of acquiring proper distribution, thus making it available through all the usual stores... then of course you will find yourself having to sell at silly prices to even try and break even.
If they've gone down this route out of a love for the film then fair enough but it doesn't mean it is the best route, for either them or the customer, nor does it make sound business sense. Maybe it was their only move? Who knows? It still doesn't mean I have to feel that a release is worth that much money. I'm not entirely sure why that makes me have "a sense of entitlement". Everyone is going to have a cap on how much they'll spend on a release. This is over mine ultimately.

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triodelover
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#28 Post by triodelover » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:07 pm

TMDaines wrote:I already made that same conjecture myself earlier:
TMDaines wrote:Of course if you go to all the effort of restoring a silent yourself and then only distributing it through your unknown website, instead of acquiring proper distribution, thus making it available through all the usual stores... then of course you will find yourself having to sell at silly prices to even try and break even.
Do you not see the difference in your disparaging and accusatory tone and what zedz said? Are you certain your aren't oneshotmonkey's little brother? I'll say it again, for a student of languages you are remarkably clueless concerning the meaning of words and their use-dependent impact.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#29 Post by TMDaines » Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:32 pm

triodelover wrote:
TMDaines wrote:I already made that same conjecture myself earlier:
TMDaines wrote:Of course if you go to all the effort of restoring a silent yourself and then only distributing it through your unknown website, instead of acquiring proper distribution, thus making it available through all the usual stores... then of course you will find yourself having to sell at silly prices to even try and break even.
Do you not see the difference in your disparaging and accusatory tone and what zedz said? Are you certain your aren't oneshotmonkey's little brother? I'll say it again, for a student of languages you are remarkably clueless concerning the meaning of words and their use-dependent impact.
The irony of this coming from someone who just goes down the personal attacks and insults route whilst sitting on his high horse with the pretences of thinking on a higher level...

Seriously, what's your obsession with me and the few bits of personal information I've mentioned at times on this forum? You're the only person who gets in a tiff over these things and tries to make it personal. I'm not interested in it. I'm happy for people to disagree with me and debate and argue over things. It's a forum after all. I just couldn't care less about your personal problems with me coming into every thread that I post in.

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zedz
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#30 Post by zedz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:46 pm

TMDaines wrote:Everyone is going to have a cap on how much they'll spend on a release. This is over mine ultimately.
That is, of course, your prerogative. But the big problem I have with your argument is the implication that the pricing of the release invites piracy. You've been trying to insinuate that Alpha / Omega are somehow indulging in unethical behaviour (profiteering - "I can't believe anyone can justify this price") so you can justify your own or others' unethical behaviour (theft). But you've provided no evidence whatsoever that Alpha / Omega is indeed profiteering, and anyway the behaviours are not ethically equivalent. You don't have a right to see this film unless you're prepared to pay for it.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#31 Post by TMDaines » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:29 pm

zedz wrote:
TMDaines wrote:Everyone is going to have a cap on how much they'll spend on a release. This is over mine ultimately.
That is, of course, your prerogative. But the big problem I have with your argument is the implication that the pricing of the release invites piracy. You've been trying to insinuate that Alpha / Omega are somehow indulging in unethical behaviour (profiteering - "I can't believe anyone can justify this price") so you can justify your own or others' unethical behaviour (theft). But you've provided no evidence whatsoever that Alpha / Omega is indeed profiteering, and anyway the behaviours are not ethically equivalent. You don't have a right to see this film unless you're prepared to pay for it.
Nice straw man you've made here. I'm not sure where you see me implicating that they're profiteering: it's a 1920s silent after all. I'm just saying it is too expensive in my opinion in comparison to other releases of a similar package on the market. That's why I can't see how you can justify it as being a fair price, there's nothing moral about this. I just don't believe it is great value and I even stated that this may be out of necessity because of the route they have gone down.

I stand by my other comments though that Tommaso elablorated on. A good chunk of the crowd interested in this probably have had access to the Arte TV broadcast and the film is a hard sell at these prices. At the end of the day you've got to persuade people to part with their cash for your product.

As for the last line, I could respond but it's just going to open a can of worms. We both know there's plenty of ways to see films for free from a perfectly legal standpoint and it should be recognised that some of the legal methods where you do have to reach into your pocket can be just as damaging for small DVD labels as piracy e.g. renting, borrowing etc.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that if no-one buys the releases then the films won't be restored and released at all but I'm not going to obligate myself to buy something at any cost. I buy enough but won't buy this as there's better value out there for my pound. I won't pirate it either though as that isn't my style and I agree with you on that.

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zedz
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#32 Post by zedz » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:01 pm

TMDaines wrote:Nice straw man you've made here. I'm not sure where you see me implicating that they're profiteering.
Where you said, for example, "I can't believe anyone can justify this price." i.e. the price is unjustifiable. (And oh look, I'd already helpfully quoted it for you in the post you were referring to!)

And all the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the world ("have had access to the Arte TV broadcast" - classy euphemism there, as if it's all entirely passive on the part of the illegal downloader) doesn't change the fact that if people are stealing a film rather than paying for an available disc, the company responsible is highly unlikely to stay in business or restore any further silent classics, and people need to be aware that, particularly with very marginal releases like these, your actions have consequences. And I suspect you are well aware of this whole situation and its implications or you wouldn't be resorting to the euphemisms in the first place. It's certainly good to know that you won't be stealing the film either. But I don't think the euphemisms do anybody any favours.

Renting and borrowing are interesting issues to ponder as well, but I suspect they're extremely minor compared to downloading, and the ratio of views to purchases will be much, much smaller and therefore less damaging to potential sales.

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#33 Post by lady wakasa » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:31 am

Well, it's not my favorite Lubitsch (and I do love me some Lubitsch); but, if nothing else, this thread has convinced me to buy this release when it's available.

Jonathan S
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#34 Post by Jonathan S » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:10 am

zedz wrote:("have had access to the Arte TV broadcast" - classy euphemism there, as if it's all entirely passive on the part of the illegal downloader)
I don't want to get into this argument, but I think it should be noted simply as factual evidence that Arte themselves made their entire broadcast of this film (and their other silents) freely and legally accessible for online viewing - including the UK at least - for a limited time. I watched some of it that way myself.

Of course, downloading it for later use would be a different matter. I wouldn't have a clue how to do that anyway, but even 20 years ago I was able to view and sometimes record silents on German TV from the UK via satellite - being part of a Sky package, I assume the viewing at least was legal. Around the same time, a friend of mine without satellite used to get someone in Germany to send him the broadcasts on VHS (the original off-air recordings, not copies) which I suppose was a primitive form of file-sharing! Of course then it was virtually the only way to see most European silents.

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#35 Post by Tommaso » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:31 am

Quite right, and I think arte can still be seen in many European countries other than France and Germany via satellite. It's also perfectly legal in Germany to make copies of your own off-TV recordings and give them to other people as long as the number of such copies doesn't exceed a certain amount (it may be eight, but I'm not entirely sure), and of course you're not allowed to charge any money for that. If you're good at networking, and many silent enthusiasts are, you don't need filesharing to get to see many films.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#36 Post by TMDaines » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:34 am

zedz wrote:And all the rhetorical sleight-of-hand in the world ("have had access to the Arte TV broadcast" - classy euphemism there, as if it's all entirely passive on the part of the illegal downloader)
There's not really a classy euphemism here. Arte TV is free channel that isn't encrypted and can be picked up almost anywhere in Europe. Heck, I was watching it two days ago here in Ukraine. And as has already been mentioned some of their stuff can be seen on their website.

But to address those who downloaded the broadcast despite not havIng the channel, did these people do too much wrong? It's not as if the silents on Arte TV always make it to home video after release and unfortunately for the majority of people the only way to see these films is to indeed download a TV rip or VHS rip.

At the end of the day people just need to be responsible in downloading. I buy everything that is available on DVD that I want to own, even if it is not English friendly (as I can cope with HoH subs in the foreign language, get fansubs or can cope without). Anything that is available on DVD I won't download unless it is superior for one reason or another (original intertitles or so forth). Stuff that isn't available on DVD or Blu anywhere I'll happily download as I don't feel I'm doing anything morally wrong. This means I've got a 300-400 films on DVD/Blu and about 30 rips of films that aren't available on DVD. Maybe two or three have been released but only with the original intertitles replaced.

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#37 Post by L.A. » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:52 am

The Loves of Pharaoh has been nominated for the 2012 FOCAL Awards in the Best Archive Restoration Title category.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#38 Post by TMDaines » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:16 pm

Considering how much of a staunch defence the route to market for this disk received, I'm presuming several people were looking to buy it. Could anyone do a mini review - if it has been released at all - as I've seen nothing about it anywhere online? Their website is extremely vague and early 2012 has been and gone.

Maybe MoC or Kino should take a look.

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#39 Post by jwd5275 » Fri May 11, 2012 5:25 pm

Showing at the SF Silent Film Fest.

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Pharaoh
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#40 Post by Pharaoh » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:54 am

Dear Forum Members,

We are excited to announce the release of the DVD and BluRay of „The Loves of Pharaoh“ on 30th June 2012.

The production of the DVD and BluRay edition took longer than expected due to the complexity of the project and extraordinarily high production costs. The established production methods and distribution channels make an independent release in limited edition difficult to finance and hardly profitable. Despite the difficult and long journey we are proud to present a high-quality collectors edition with exciting content and packaging.

DVD UND BLURAY EDITION SPECIFICATIONS:
This digital restoration recreates the original color tinting scheme in accordance to the only surviving projection print fragments. This release makes the original orchestral score available for the first time ever on recorded media.

Special features:
- Digibox packaging
- Booklet: 20. pages, color. Texts and images relating to the film and the restoration: Introduction by Thomas Bakels, personal message to the fans from Ms Nicola Lubitsch, Essay by Kristin Thompson, Interview with Frank Strobel, Text by Egyptology expert Bernt Müller- Trailer: English, German- Production documentation: location shots, photos of missing scenes, programme booklet - Filmkurier Berlin 1922 (BluRay disc only)
- The Return of Lubitsch’s Pharaoh: A documentary about the restoration of The Loves of Pharaoh, depicting the complex restoration project in pictures and narration about the making of the film, interviews with contributors and scene comparisons. Information about color selection, technical procedures and source material is provided as well as a context to the new recording of the original music score. (35mins)
- Film concert: A high-class program in its own right is this HD recording of WDR Rundfunkorchester performing the music score in Cologne, Germany, on 14th and 15th September 2011. This program was produced by ALPHA-OMEGA digital especially for this release. Assembled using footage from 16 cameras strategically placed within the orchestra, the music takes center stage and the film becomes the supporting act. The outstanding performance of the orchestra under the direction of Frank Strobel finally completes the film and can be experienced in full length and from close-up with this first ever recording of Künneke’s score. (100 mins)

Language Versions:
German, English, French, Italian, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, ArabicThe film is presented in 10 selectable language versions. The title cards are re-created as full screen intertitles as was common practice for foreign releases in the silent film era. The titles were translated by colleagues and friends who came to the project with a profound subject expertise. For the German, English, French and Italian versions the original type face could be used. The Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Thai and Arabic versions exhibit a different appearance due to their unique characteristics.

Technical Specifications:
DVD Edition: 1*DVD9 + 1*DVD9
BluRay Edition: 1*BluRay50
Duration: Main Feature: approx. 100min, Additional Material: approx. 144min
Frame Rate: 20 f/s
Resolution: PAL, 720×576 (DVD) | NTSC, 720×480 (DVD) | HD 1920×1080 (BD)
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 (1,33:1) (main feature)
Audio: Dolby Digital 5.1 (DVD) | PCM 2.0 Stereo (DVD & BluRay)| DTS-HD 5.1 (BluRay)
Source Material: Original Russian and Italian nitrate release prints

You can place the order on the Alpha-Omega digital online shop:
http://www.alpha-omega.de/doku.php?id=e ... pharao_dvd" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We hope you enjoy the restored version of this long lost Lubitsch spectacle!

Your ALPHA-OMEGA digital Team

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L.A.
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#41 Post by L.A. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:49 pm

Finally! :D

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#42 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:27 pm

Ordered a copy. :)

I am assuming the bonus materials are subtitled where necessary, yes? I understand the concert is dialogue-free, but I am thinking of the restoration documentary.

EDIT: Never mind, I dug out an old e-mail response that the documentary will have subtitles in English, at least.
Last edited by McCrutchy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#43 Post by perkizitore » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:16 pm

I would love to get the blu-ray, but unfortunately I cannot spare 40 euros for a minor Lubitsch...
I am not bitching btw, this looks like an amazing release and I can encourage everyone that can afford it to order it ASAP.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#44 Post by TMDaines » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:01 pm

Looks good but it's way too dear for me.

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zedz
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#45 Post by zedz » Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:21 pm

TMDaines wrote:Looks good but it's way too dear for me.
Image

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Lazertron
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#46 Post by Lazertron » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:08 am

Ordered the Blu-ray release yesterday and want to point the naggers to Laserdisc retail prices back then.

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swo17
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#47 Post by swo17 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:35 am

Lazertron wrote:back then
Yesterday? 1922?

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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#48 Post by McCrutchy » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:27 am

david hare wrote:the 40 bucks plus price point is also too much for me now, as a bloody retiree on a pension and some other small income - thus the same goes for Twilight Time.
David, while I agree the price point is quite high (just under US $50 shipped), I don't think the Twilight Time comparison is apt when you consider value for money. I was happy to support them when they first started out, but it's become clear that they have a very odd business model, that frankly, isn't consumer-friendly at all. TT take a high-def master from someone else (of late, Fox or Sony), put it on a disc, and sell it for anywhere between $30-$40, plus shipping if you don't bundle titles. Arguably, the only part of their discs that is unique (assuming it has not been created already) is the Isolated Score track, which is often the only extra content, save for some liner notes and cover art. I could understand their pricing, if they were doing restoration and/or creating new extra content, but they are not. Twilight Time also seem to have discounted the idea that eventually, their titles will pop up overseas (often from the same studio that is providing them the materials to put on their discs), in general distribution, and at lower prices.

On the other hand, the information listed here makes it obvious that Alpha-Omega have put far more time and resources into their release.
david hare wrote:I should also make it clear the Arte TV copy horse had bolted well before this announcement. There is a very healthy history of Arte SD or 720p Broadcasts recorded at home and then doing the rounds amongst enthusiasts...let's remember none of us would ever have seen or had a copy of Maldone if nobody had recorded it from Arte and then shared it amongst the faithful. And this is all perfectly legal.
To this last point, it certainly is not legal to share these copied broadcast recordings. Even if the film in question is not under copyright, the version shown on Arte, which in the case of these high-def silents, is almost certainly from a restoration, is under copyright, even if only by the company that carried out the restoration.

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TMDaines
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#49 Post by TMDaines » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:33 am

Sidestepping the issue of sharing TV recordings, - and I must confess, I did download the recording myself only three weeks ago after any news on this release had long fizzled out - it's obvious that a lot more love has gone into this release then the Twilight Time releases and hence is probably better value for money. The price is still too high for me ultimately, however, as there's hundreds of releases I'd rather spend €40 on. Why spend €40 on this when I could pick up three Crits or MoCs, or three, four or even five DVDs off my Amazon.it wishlist? I'm snapping up the Edition Filmmuseum stuff bit another €15+ on top of that is too much. Maybe if I wasn't just a student, had been in this game for several more years and had many more of my wants, then I might feel differently.

All the same, I'm amazed they go to all this work with different subtitles and then only sell it through a website that makes SAE look like Amazon, but we've been down this road before.

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feckless boy
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Re: The Loves of Pharaoh (Lubitsch, 1922)

#50 Post by feckless boy » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:39 am

perkizitore wrote:I cannot spare 40 euros for a minor Lubitsch...
Is this the general consensus that this is a minor Lubitsch I mean?

OT: I got a shipping confirmation for my blu today!

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