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mfunk9786 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:54 pm

domino harvey wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:12 pm That may be the only way I’d actually believe he was sorry… so I doubt it would happen

Will Smith Resigns from Academy

haha I guess Trump conceding is now in range.

So what's left is banning him from future ceremonies, even though Will probably wouldn't show anyway, and everything else short of rescinding the Oscar.

therewillbeblus wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:12 am I've been thinking about this a bit tonight, and my new hypothesis is: Will Smith only reacted violently because he laughed at Rock's joke and Jada didn't.

There was a TikTok video from a different angle from behind the couple where you see Smith more or less was compelled into action with a glance from her. It was, to say the least, extremely weird.

ha i knew it. That's the missing piece from that night i've been looking for. They had the camera on them so i wondered if the footage showing when Will flipped is there. It's relevant to the Academy's decision because it would reveal that Will wasn't defending his wife but trying to get himself out of a potential domestic mess he had gotten himself into.

Her laughing when Rock makes his first comment after getting slapped comes across as pretty sociopathic.

mfunk9786 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:54 pm

domino harvey wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:12 pm That may be the only way I’d actually believe he was sorry… so I doubt it would happen

Will Smith Resigns from Academy

I didn't think this would happen, but I did think it was the best solution. Waiting for the Academy to complete its review means letting this story grow more and more each day, which isn't going to help anyone. And as mentioned upthread, any decision would be met with cries of being too harsh or too lenient. I didn't want to say this out loud before, but I thought the best model was Nixon's resignation. There was going to be no good ending to that - Nixon's resignation may have been self-serving, but it was the classiest way out of an absolutely unclassy situation. (No pun intended there with regards to Black Hat's post.) And it's a way of mitigating any pressure or strain on the respective institutions. So I'm glad Smith took this course of action.

Rayon Vert wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:57 pm Her laughing when Rock makes his first comment after getting slapped comes across as pretty sociopathic.

Absolutely. It's chilling how she barely moves afterwards, not even to look at Smith. Only to laugh.

For those in need of a reprieve: Pedro Almodovar's Oscar weekend.

Here is collegiality, warmth, humor, love of cinema...in short, everything missing from this year's telecast.

I should amend my post, the Academy will still have a review, but it does take a lot of pressure off.

Well, true to my word, I give him credit for doing what I’d judge to be the right thing here

Wow, Deadline is reporting that the Academy told him he’d likely be facing an expulsion of “a decade-plus” and basically gave him the heads-up to save face

alright then it doesn't count if he was given a cheat sheet.

He was basically asked to resign, which is the same as being expelled anyway.

hearthesilence wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:04 am

Rayon Vert wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:57 pm Her laughing when Rock makes his first comment after getting slapped comes across as pretty sociopathic.

Absolutely. It's chilling how she barely moves afterwards, not even to look at Smith. Only to laugh.

I’ve suspected for awhile that she seems quite unpleasant, but never honed in on it because quite honestly that would make her far from unique in the history of Hollywood but maybe Sunday night changed that, as much as it did his reputation too.

domino harvey wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:36 am Wow, Deadline is reporting that the Academy told him he’d likely be facing an expulsion of “a decade-plus” and basically gave him the heads-up to save face

I wish I hadn't read this. Thinking that Smith decided to resign on his own actually gave me faith in humanity for a moment

Its more disturbing that Jada is essentially playing everyone into thinking she's this deeply wounded animal without even saying or expressing anything herself.

Will said he was deeply sorry and i took his word for it and Chris said he didn't know the extent of her medical condition and i take his word for it but Jada hasn't actually said a word about being hurt and said quite the contrary about how she feels about hair jokes right before the Oscars yet you got strangers on the internet this close to wearing alopecia ribbons.

I actually DVR'd the Oscars this year because I've been so busy with work and couldn't process this incident until today. I also know the Oscars are not a significant part of many members here, but they are significant to most of the movie-watching world. That being said, this saddens me to no end; I'm utterly disheartened. I really can't even put my emotions into words. I feel like this incident was a huge setback to the conversation about racial inequality. Obviously, violence is never the answer in this situation. But many celebrities have been outspoken in saying that this is, indeed, the answer. It is a very confusing and difficult topic.

If Will had just only vocalized his disapproval of the joke in a non-threatening manner, we would all have positive things to say about how he defended his wife's honor.

Had he done this at the start of the week without being prompted by the Academy, it would have reflected better on him. I never much liked either Smith even before the incident; I'll be glad to hopefully see even less of them now. I wonder how Apple are going to deal with the slave picture, Emancipation, now. Are they going to hold on to it, or sell it? Smith is acting in it as well as producing so that's going to be a PR headache. And the I Am Legend sequel surely isn't going to be a thing now at WB unless Smith's role is recast or he's written out. Alternatively, both films might be put on ice so the studios can monitor the industry's and public's ongoing perception of and reaction to Smith.

swo17 wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:48 am

domino harvey wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:36 am Wow, Deadline is reporting that the Academy told him he’d likely be facing an expulsion of “a decade-plus” and basically gave him the heads-up to save face

I wish I hadn't read this. Thinking that Smith decided to resign on his own actually gave me faith in humanity for a moment

While I was glad when I heard he resigned, reading this now only emphasizes the feelings I had about him all along, that he is a disingenuous and self serving individual who with his fake smiles and laughs throughout his career plays to whatever he thinks the audience requires of him. And maybe during the Oscars when under sudden unexpected pressure (in this case from his wife) he suddenly revealed a true side of himself - unfortunately a very ugly one.
And if he really was play acting to appease his wife than he is an even greater idiot than I always thought him to be.

However, what I find even more disturbing is all the reactions in the media that make this all about race and that shows many who think it is ok to behave like this - this shows me the sorry state of affairs our society is in.

The one positive from this for me is Chris Rock. I have never been a fan and basically been very neutral about him, but his behavior thus far shows a lot of class for me, even if I didn’t particularly like the joke itself.

While the incident itself is very ugly (about the only funny meme I’ve read involves a picture of Smith with Japanese wrestling legend Antonio Inoki), I do think some positives could come out of this. At the very least it’s exposed the Smiths as less genuine of their carefully constructed PR image, which could maybe in the long run contribute to a more honest discussion of celebrity in the Western world that began with #MeToo, and the enhanced scrutiny of people’s behavior (an obvious double-edged sword) that’s been amplified in the age of social media and everything being classified as breaking news. Maybe it could lead to the questioning of the positioning of arts into competition shows like the Oscars have become, and indeed it’s own relevance in the light of more people having a voice to the idea that less people care about these things then they do at least to their own tastes and what moves them.

I don’t know if any of this will happen and 10 years from now those questions remain unanswered and we’ll still be talking about this comparatively unimportant event to everyone’s lives, except those directly involved. I think that in the bigger picture of the perceived insensitivity of it all, it illustrates just how tense things are in America that even the Academy Awards can’t be so civil and milquetoast after the collective divisions of the Trump presidency and the pandemic happening back to back.

swo17 wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:48 am

domino harvey wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:36 am Wow, Deadline is reporting that the Academy told him he’d likely be facing an expulsion of “a decade-plus” and basically gave him the heads-up to save face

I wish I hadn't read this. Thinking that Smith decided to resign on his own actually gave me faith in humanity for a moment

vsski already iterated my thoughts, but Will Smith has always embodied these narcissistic qualities and I wouldn’t use him as the basis for faith in humanity, even in jest. I realize this is an extreme example, but to me it’s like saying Trump apologizing for something would restore faith in humanity. Would that really matter all that much, and if so, why am I giving that person so much power? If I’m using Will Smith’s ability to suddenly act against his ingrained characteristics - however they were formed over time - all it would do is tell me people can apparently change completely after seeing a white light and that I should look for another job because therapists are useless now. I believe all people are capable of change, but it takes more than five day’s work of reflecting to restore faith in a person. Now, if that study was wrong and it turned out 90% of Americans vs 60% thought Smith was wrong, that would restore my faith in humanity, but one person, nah

Edit: I see Smith said this too, first thing he’s said I’ve liked!

Will Smith wrote:Change takes time and I am committed to doing the work to ensure that I never again allow violence to overtake reason.

I wonder if this will turn out to be the harbinger of the end of Will's box-office "streak"––though I suppose that movies like After Earth and Gemini Man were already announcing this downward trend. I've watched very few of his movies––the original Men in Black and Six Degrees of Separation are the only movies which come to mind––but he has always come across to me on television and in trailers and Cinemasins videos as less of an actor occupied with his craft than as someone trying very desperately to please, and in that way to hide his insecurity. Mind you, lots of great movie stars fit this role as well, including actors like Cary Grant. But I think many of them have handled this part of their movie-star careers better than Smith has in this instance. There is something about these Scientology movie stars, though, which seems to produce these bizarre public freakouts––it seems like part of the DNA of the group to be a) unusually brittle and humorless in the face of criticism, and b) willing to step outside the boundaries of what most of us think is acceptable in order to present a front of confidence and control. Though certainly they aren't the only ones. Between Mel Gibson and Alec Baldwin we certainly have examples of people not connected to Scientology, but with a similar mindset and a similar lack of self control.

The person who demonstrated the most admirable self-control here is Chris Rock, who handled it all like a consummate professional. He even at one point seemed to consider snapping back in response to Will's barely-veiled threats following the slap (to me the most violent and upsetting part of the event)––only to put the riposte aside in favor of getting on with what he was hired to do. Rock had to think very quickly to gauge the level of continued threat Will Smith was presenting to him, and to decide that he could go on with the show. I'm glad the Academy took some action, even if they had to be bullied into it themselves, but the fact that they waited to do it until now is pretty disappointing. But the part of this which made me most angry is not so much the slap itself but the unchecked intimidation that followed, and the defense and celebration of Smith afterwards. That intimidation, with Smith bellowing and bullying Rock, and forcing him in front of an enormous audience of the public at large to concede to Will's insistence he not mention Jada Pinkett-Smith again––along with the celebration of Smith at the award after––giving him a truly unmerited platform to further articulate his bullying attitude––gave me unpleasant flashbacks to the bullying I endured as a child and as a teenager. In none of those pretty-much countless instances was I protected or defended by anyone, and it was, I guess you'd call it "lightly traumatizing" to see Smith's continued bellowing of threats, and the Academy's reticence to do anything to protect the host they hired. People want to make this about a slap, when to me it's a lot more an issue of workplace safety. When people have threatened me verbally in work environments, I have always desperately wanted to quit those jobs. When I haven't felt able to do so, it definitely affected my attitude towards the job from then on out. I'm pretty sure the Academy's sitting on their hands while Smith continued to yell at Rock will factor into future prospective Oscar hosts' calculus as to whether or not they'll take the job––though in keeping with therewillbeblues' faith in humanity, I'm sure someone will see the job as too much of a career-booster to turn down.

There has been a lot of chatter where people try and gauge the force of the slap, or the value of the insult––and occasionally I see somebody trying to insist that if you aren't a tough-guy you have no business weighing in on the subject in the first place––but I think you can ultimately boil this incident down to a simple question: What is the reasonable level of safety we would want to see provided to a person hired to tell jokes at the Oscars? Obviously, the Academy couldn't foresee and prevent the slap from happening, but I think it's reasonable to expect that by the time Smith is back in his seat, bellowing threats at Rock, that someone ought to be heading down to the front row, to escort Smith out of the auditorium. It doesn't strike me as safe that they let Rock's assailant sit down and enjoy the rest of the night––whether he be black, or famous, or rich, or the intersection of those qualities––or about to win an award. They can FedEx the guy his Oscar later. Meanwhile, Smith gets to sit down, get comforted by some of the world's most famous people, and then feted by the crowd and given the honor of a lifetime (for him, apparently). Personally, I think that the level of safety provided to presenters like Chris Rock ought to be at least one step higher than it turned out to be that night. That Smith got to remain seems to me less about race or class than it is an exercise in pure power, and what it buys you. Smith assaulted and bullied someone in front of literally the world, and he couldn't get arrested for it; the Academy didn't even feel they could revoke his invitation until after the smoke had cleared, when they could sit down and horse-trade with him. When you are one of Hollywood's ever-thinning class of perceived earners, that is the edge power buys you. A life peppered with a lot of beatdowns and intimidations makes me hope that the sustainment of that power is almost at an end for Smith and his clan, but I can only hope so. It's not so much that I care one way or the other about Smith or his talent––it's more that I hate the sort of expression of power Smith felt allowed to exercise that night––to dominate and threaten another person just because of a joke that didn't play quite your way is pretty heinous to my eyes. It may be that my opinion is informed there largely by my own experience being oppressed in something close to that same way, but I find it's the perspective on the issue which makes the most sense to me.

hearthesilence wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:18 pm I've been reading reactions on my social media feed - not interacting but just reading a lot - and it really saddens me that so many people are saying it's okay. Most are saying it isn't, but a pretty substantial number of people are saying it's justifiable. The heart of it is that they don't get the concept that physically hurting or lashing out at someone is wrong and even more damaging in its own way. Two things come to mind:

Without going into details, I spent a good deal of time in the past few years having variations of this lecture with someone: you're right to feel hurt by something so-and-so said, and they should understand that, even if they don't mean to be malicious. They've got to listen to you, understand and learn. But you reacting in a violent manner/lashing out at them violently is worse. Sometimes I follow this with a lengthy explanation on why, like maybe putting yourself in their shoes and thinking how it's painful and confusing to be physically attacked.

So seeing this incident play out at a high-profile event and having people openly defend it just says to me, "this is the culture a lot of people want to have."

Both the health condition and even the sensitivity of an African-American woman's hair (given the cultural context) was pointed out, but from experience I really can't go along with that. Again without going into too many details, I just had a holiday this past winter where I encountered quite a bit of discomfort that peaked with a blatantly racist joke by the family of someone I know. I was offended and disgusted, there's no excuse for it. But if I hit either of those people the way Will Smith hit Chris Rock, I'd still be carrying a lot of shame. But it's clear that's not a universal feeling or belief and just emphasizes how far apart people are going to be on this.

I'm so glad others feel the same way I do. I felt incredibly uncomfortable watching Smith hurling expletives at Rock. I was in utter disbelief that Smith wasn't tossed out of their by security. His acceptance speech was even more appalling to me (and the fact that he was permitted to give one by still being in the building).

But even more so, I'm saddened by the court of public opinion where some are in favor of what happened. The consensus also seems to be falling along racial lines, i.e., someone here previously mentioned African-American and Latino Twitter are condoning this type of violence. That terrifies me, as well, because it seems like our Courageous Conversations about race will have a hard time continuing with this VAST divide in principles. As a pacifist, I feel that violence is never the answer. Noone was in fear of dying in this situation. And to be honest, Smith was laughing out loud at the joke at first! So anyone saying he was defending his wife's honor is 100% wrong. He was defending only HIS honor and reputation (thank you to therewillbeblus for pointing this out first). I was telling everyone I knew that he should be thrown out of the Academy. I'm very glad he is gone and I will be boycotting anything he does going forward.

Great post, feihong, well said

therewillbeblus wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:46 pm One of the reasons I find this whole elasticity of moral 'nuance' pertaining to violence ridiculous is that many people have misconceptions that these physical scars always heal, minimizing the effects of it. Not only are there degrees of psychological trauma that can occur (regardless of how one 'appears' to shrug it off), but any number of things can go wrong. Sure, they didn't here, but if hypothetically Chris Rock had an embolism in his head that burst when Smith struck him, or fallen the wrong way and hit his head in the wrong place, that's manslaughter. I realize I'm using worst case examples in a fantasy situation, but I've peripherally known people who have been tragically involved in that exact scenario occurring, and I'm shocked at how many people are shrugging this off ("Sure, Smith was wrong, but Rock was too!") when someone engaged in physical violence, that carries serious potential for (yes, at times, life-threatening) damaging consequences. Words fucking hurt, and can be equally psychologically damaging in their own right, but come on- "Standing up for your family" via a method of engaging in an impulsive and regressive intervention that has the potential to do serious harm should not be brushed aside regardless of, or attempt to be equated with, the provocative comment. Some people seem to be celebrating the act of devolution to one's reptilian brain, or pretending like verbal and physical aggression are even close to the same thing, and that's just bewildering.

My thoughts exactly! Anyone saying "Rock was wrong" and deserved some form of punishment (physical) is only promoting the "hillybilly justice" mentality of retaliation. I can't believe how anyone can even think in any universe what Smith did was justified!

Smith didn't run on stage. He sauntered up there with purpose and meaning knowing exactly what he was going to do. I feel that Rock was expecting Smith to whisper something in his ear, them both have a verbal exchange, and be done with it. Everyone would have been 100% ok with that. But a physical assault in one of the most publicized venues was truly uncalled for. Rock could have been seriously hurt and we'd be talking about something else entirely.

I'll also reiterate. Smith laughed at first. He was not defending his wife at all. He was defending ONLY HIMSELF in a narcissitically toxic masculine way.

It is interesting to analyze how Smith presented himself before, during, and after the assault along these lines. It's fitting with the idea of Smith's inner conflict between a degree of compulsive reactivity, born from an unbearable exposure to dysphoria as the result of public image (regardless of how he appeared, walking slowly on stage and away) and the subconscious need to continue to look presentable, that these behaviors didn't complement one another at all and are demonstrative of a man with multiple competing parts pulling him in wildly different directions. I mean, he laughed, then became flooded with self-conscious emotions and attacked someone (notice how, even though he was walking, he was leaning forward almost zombie-like, in a trance- I don't know if that's 'controlled'), but then turned around and walked away in a manner that was trying so hard to maintain an aura of 'cool' once facing the crowd and camera (that strut, that look, the hand on his jacket- that's some acting right there! Or at least the way the protagonists look after they give someone a 'deserved' beating in the movies) before immediately reverting back to the explosive dysregulation screaming at Rock back at his seat, with no skills to manage his emotions.

cpetrizzi wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:12 pmBut even more so, I'm saddened by the court of public opinion where some are in favor of what happened. The consensus also seems to be falling along racial lines, i.e., someone here previously mentioned African-American and Latino Twitter are condoning this type of violence. That terrifies me, as well, because it seems like our Courageous Conversations about race will have a hard time continuing with this VAST divide in principles.

This sentiment makes me extremely uncomfortable. There is a centuries-long and well-documented history of white-instigated violence which victimized and oppressed both black and latin peoples all over the western hemisphere. The idea that history can exist without granting some empathy to people subjugated by this violence for literally centuries, feels wrong.

I would challenge that claim of "vast divide in principles" is both overgeneralized along racial lines, as well as inaccurate at its core. Any divides in principles are far less clean than racial lines, or gender, or political affiliation, or any other direct association.

With that said, I now feel obligated to state my own opinion on this matter. I agree that Will Smith's actions were reprehensible, specifically his physical assault on Chris Rock. I think the Academy's approach from the moment it happened up until now has been nearly as reprehensible. Their failure to take swift action and condemn Will Smith's actions (edit: reworded this to clarify my viewpoint) was shameful. The academy showed no support for someone representing them, who had been the victim of violence.

I am also uncomfortable with the diagnosis of root cause for this incident, both here and elsewhere online. There are too many unknown dynamics at play between these individuals that I doubt we will ever know to make an accurate assessment. I can appreciate posing questions and looking at evidence, but I am not seeing that. I am seeing diagnosis from those who have as a majority never seen these people beyond a camera. And I don't think such diagnosis is necessary, either.

Not to harp on the "fantasy situation," but my best friend (from middle school) had a stroke the day after Thanksgiving. He has a condition called FMD (fibromuscular dysplasia) which they found out because of the stroke. He was complaining of severe headaches a few weeks prior, and during the night had a seizure. Evidently, a blood clot from his carotid artery dislodged into his brain and caused the stroke. His wife called 911 very quickly. They fortunately saved his life with surgery. However, he is still going through extensive therapy for his left side, speech, and brain function. He was an elite gymnast in high school and college and has remained in outstanding physical shape into his 50's (just for informative purposes, his BMI = 4%).

My point is if he had been "slapped" with that amount of force on that side of his face and neck area, it probably would have killed him.