I might have to pick this up... I'd like to help support Facets when they do a good job. I'll refrain, of course, from pucking up the first three... as those releases are obviously shite.spencerw wrote:I've not seen it myself (I have the very fine AE transfer), but this review suggests it's good. .
Facets
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miless
- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:45 am
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justeleblanc
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:05 pm
- Location: Connecticut
The first three being PREFAB, NEST, and OUTSIDER? I haven't seen those, but I will say that DAMNATION and WERCKMEISTER are good but there is lots of combing and the subtitles are burned in. Neither of those really bother me (though the subtitles are hard to read at times) and they dont seem to bother a lot of online reviewers either.miless wrote:I might have to pick this up... I'd like to help support Facets when they do a good job. I'll refrain, of course, from pucking up the first three... as those releases are obviously shite.
But I'm not going to worry about Bela Tarr DVD releases. They are fine for home video, and nothing should replace seeing these in a real movie theater.
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Ashirg
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:10 pm
- Location: Atlanta
I'm thinking of picking up Who Wants to Kill Jessie? in DDD sale. Here's a positive review from DVD Savant.
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Bajaja
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:39 pm
- Location: Baltimore, MD
Do subtitles on Facets DVDs reveal an agenda? Judge by yourselves.
On Old Believers at 38:51 min voiceover says in Russian: "The human race shall begin to die out." Subtitles: "The Hebrew race shall begin to die out."
I noticed it, but let it go. However, I have finally seen The Fifth Horsman Is Fear, a masterful depiction of a dehumanized police state, rendered by the Czech director Zbynek Brynych in 1962. While the decorations, costumes, and cars are from the era of the Nazi occupation, the filmmaker's intention is made clear by the choice of bookending the film with documentary shots of the 1960's Prague and of the extratemporal secret police men-in-black in definitely non-thirties, almost Beatles-like suits. What I am saying is that the film is a general, timeless criticism of the police state, regardless of the ideology that created it. However, Facets' subtitles greatly narrow down this meaning and, consequently, the film's impact, by unjustly anchoring it in a particular moment in history. In my opinion, it is a disservice to the art of the film in general and to this great film in particular.
Here is the list of examples I was able to register:
02:45 min
Dialog: Registry of general confiscates.
ST: Registration of Jewish property.
09:00
Dialog: We are destroying ourselves.
ST: We Jews are settling everything.
21:33
Dialog: I am not allowed to practice medicine.
ST: As a Jew, I am not allowed to practice.
42:33
Dialog: Try our hospital.
ST: Try the Jewish sanatorium.
50:28
Dialog: Nowadays we have as many as 20 suicides daily.
ST: We have up to 20 Jewish suicides a day.
50:42
Dialog: But the old Braun is not allowed on the street that late at night.
ST: But Jews mustn't be out late.
In dialogs throughout the film the secret police officer, who speaks perfect Czech, as the rest of the characters, is referred to as "Mr. Commisioner" or, if you prefer, "Mr. Comissar". The subtitles use, again unjustifiably, the German translation "Herr Komissar". It is worth pointing out that the only images of the Nazi swastika appear in the opening shot of the wall with the "Announcement" posters on it. As far as I can tell, the text of the announcement is in Czech and it only, or mostly, consists of names (most of which do not look Jewish, for whatever it is worth).
In spite of this, I recommend the film highly. The picture is not excellent, but not too bad either - yellow on Sharphedin2's list (above in the thread).
On Old Believers at 38:51 min voiceover says in Russian: "The human race shall begin to die out." Subtitles: "The Hebrew race shall begin to die out."
I noticed it, but let it go. However, I have finally seen The Fifth Horsman Is Fear, a masterful depiction of a dehumanized police state, rendered by the Czech director Zbynek Brynych in 1962. While the decorations, costumes, and cars are from the era of the Nazi occupation, the filmmaker's intention is made clear by the choice of bookending the film with documentary shots of the 1960's Prague and of the extratemporal secret police men-in-black in definitely non-thirties, almost Beatles-like suits. What I am saying is that the film is a general, timeless criticism of the police state, regardless of the ideology that created it. However, Facets' subtitles greatly narrow down this meaning and, consequently, the film's impact, by unjustly anchoring it in a particular moment in history. In my opinion, it is a disservice to the art of the film in general and to this great film in particular.
Here is the list of examples I was able to register:
02:45 min
Dialog: Registry of general confiscates.
ST: Registration of Jewish property.
09:00
Dialog: We are destroying ourselves.
ST: We Jews are settling everything.
21:33
Dialog: I am not allowed to practice medicine.
ST: As a Jew, I am not allowed to practice.
42:33
Dialog: Try our hospital.
ST: Try the Jewish sanatorium.
50:28
Dialog: Nowadays we have as many as 20 suicides daily.
ST: We have up to 20 Jewish suicides a day.
50:42
Dialog: But the old Braun is not allowed on the street that late at night.
ST: But Jews mustn't be out late.
In dialogs throughout the film the secret police officer, who speaks perfect Czech, as the rest of the characters, is referred to as "Mr. Commisioner" or, if you prefer, "Mr. Comissar". The subtitles use, again unjustifiably, the German translation "Herr Komissar". It is worth pointing out that the only images of the Nazi swastika appear in the opening shot of the wall with the "Announcement" posters on it. As far as I can tell, the text of the announcement is in Czech and it only, or mostly, consists of names (most of which do not look Jewish, for whatever it is worth).
In spite of this, I recommend the film highly. The picture is not excellent, but not too bad either - yellow on Sharphedin2's list (above in the thread).
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solent
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Via_Chicago
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:03 pm
Just got through watching the Facets disc of Valley of the Bees. I went in with low expectations (as it was a Facets disc) but it was a surprisingly clear picture, with very few artefacts, good black levels, and some nice grain. This is, with the exception of the lack of extra features, a wonderful disc.
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
I recently watched Facets' Late Night Talks With Mother, which was a pleasant surprise: a good anamorphic transfer and intelligently subtitled (also covering onscreen text as well as dialogue). Only quibble is that the subs are non-removable, but otherwise this definitely merits a green highlight.
I'm guessing from the source and the extras (personal intro and 40-minute supplement) that director Jan Němec was personally involved with this release, which may explain the better-than-usual source materials and treatment.
Also, the link to Beaver's review of Black Peter now directs you to a comparison, in which the Facets disc comes off a very poor second to the Czech Filmexport Home Video edition.
I'm guessing from the source and the extras (personal intro and 40-minute supplement) that director Jan Němec was personally involved with this release, which may explain the better-than-usual source materials and treatment.
Also, the link to Beaver's review of Black Peter now directs you to a comparison, in which the Facets disc comes off a very poor second to the Czech Filmexport Home Video edition.
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
I've just watched - or rather struggled through - Facets' Pearls of the Deep, and I'd dearly love to know how the hell it managed to get a yellow ranking, as it's one of the worst DVD presentations I've ever seen.
The picture is VHS quality at its absolute best (which isn't often), but I'd honestly have preferred a VHS, because I wouldn't have had to put up with hideous blocky artefacting pretty much any time something moved on screen (camera movements were particularly bad). Presumably in an attempt to beef up poor source material, edge enhancement has also been turned up to the max.
And even if this wasn't an issue, the subtitles would automatically disqualify it from serious contention. Invariably a few seconds late, they're particularly bad during rapid-fire conversations, as each line is accompanied by a translation of the previous one. The quality of proofreading shames a label hailing from an English-speaking nation, and at some points the subtitles just give up totally for several lines at a time.
In short, it's absolutely abysmal. I had to watch it for professional reasons (I'm researching Jan Němec's career), but that's really the only conceivable reason anyone should have for sitting through it. I'm hoping that a properly respectful Czech label like Filmexport Home Video picks it up at some point, as it's too important a film to deserve this kind of treatment.
The picture is VHS quality at its absolute best (which isn't often), but I'd honestly have preferred a VHS, because I wouldn't have had to put up with hideous blocky artefacting pretty much any time something moved on screen (camera movements were particularly bad). Presumably in an attempt to beef up poor source material, edge enhancement has also been turned up to the max.
And even if this wasn't an issue, the subtitles would automatically disqualify it from serious contention. Invariably a few seconds late, they're particularly bad during rapid-fire conversations, as each line is accompanied by a translation of the previous one. The quality of proofreading shames a label hailing from an English-speaking nation, and at some points the subtitles just give up totally for several lines at a time.
In short, it's absolutely abysmal. I had to watch it for professional reasons (I'm researching Jan Němec's career), but that's really the only conceivable reason anyone should have for sitting through it. I'm hoping that a properly respectful Czech label like Filmexport Home Video picks it up at some point, as it's too important a film to deserve this kind of treatment.
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Scharphedin2
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 am
- Location: Denmark/Sweden
Sorry Michael, if I have assisted in misleading you on this one. When I compiled the list earlier this year, I was trying to get a general consensus on the quality of Facets' releases. Several people here gave Pearls Of The Deep a mediocre (yellow) rating. I own the disc myself, and viewed it at the time of making the list. Honestly, I think it is viewable, but would agree with you that the image quality is closer to VHS than the common standards of DVD. It would be great to see this film given proper treatment, as it is very good.
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Don't worry - I bought it because I had no alternative, not because you "recommended" it by rating it higher than red.
But if something as dreadful as that merits a yellow, I shudder to think what one of the red DVDs must be like!
It also seems to me, going from the Beaver screengrabs of Black Peter (which, thankfully, I haven't seen, as there was a vastly superior Czech edition available), that this red-ranked DVD has exactly the same issues regarding transfer and subtitles. So what's so particularly dreadful about this disc that makes it worse than Pearls of the Deep?
But if something as dreadful as that merits a yellow, I shudder to think what one of the red DVDs must be like!
It also seems to me, going from the Beaver screengrabs of Black Peter (which, thankfully, I haven't seen, as there was a vastly superior Czech edition available), that this red-ranked DVD has exactly the same issues regarding transfer and subtitles. So what's so particularly dreadful about this disc that makes it worse than Pearls of the Deep?
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Scharphedin2
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 am
- Location: Denmark/Sweden
Michael, the approach to making the list was not that scientific. A main reason for making the list was my interest in getting more of a balanced opinion on Facets' releases. At the time, I had not seen any of their discs, but I was intrigued by their catalogue, and yet I kept hearing that Facets' DVDs were not worth touching with a ten foot pole.
The list compiles the opinions of people on the site who have watched the DVDs, so it is a communal effort, and therefore the verdicts are bound to not be completely consistent. With Black Peter every opinion on the forum and at Beaver were unanimously bad and it therefore seemed appropriate to mark it red; Pearls of the Deep was mentioned by several of the forum members as having its faults, but not to the extent of being unwatchable (I do not think Beaver had screen captures from it). I personally purchased the disc after reading these opinions, and while I understand and respect your impression of the disc, I did not have the same negative experience with it, as you did.
My memory of Pearls of the Deep is that it had the fuzzy look of an old 16mm print, or, we may call it VHS quality, but a print otherwise without much wear and tear. I project all the films I watch to 100"+, and sometimes I can almost imagine that I am seeing the films in a theatre on opening night (A Canterbury Tale last night was a good example of this); at other times (as with Pearls of the Deep) the impression is as of seeing the film at some art house or rerun theatre in an old print, and to me that has its charm too. In the age of immaculate DVD presentations of old films, I think we often forget that to the majority of all people who ever saw these films, the experience was probably closer to the Facets DVD than to the presentations that Criterion and MoC pamper us with.
For all the excellence of the work that a site like Beaver does, I am also a little perturbed, because I know that sites like this help to keep people from seeing films that would otherwise have been important for them to see (I speak from personal experience, and I think you will see a lot of evidence of this in the forum in general). Personally, I would almost always prefer to see a given film, than to not see it at all.
The list compiles the opinions of people on the site who have watched the DVDs, so it is a communal effort, and therefore the verdicts are bound to not be completely consistent. With Black Peter every opinion on the forum and at Beaver were unanimously bad and it therefore seemed appropriate to mark it red; Pearls of the Deep was mentioned by several of the forum members as having its faults, but not to the extent of being unwatchable (I do not think Beaver had screen captures from it). I personally purchased the disc after reading these opinions, and while I understand and respect your impression of the disc, I did not have the same negative experience with it, as you did.
My memory of Pearls of the Deep is that it had the fuzzy look of an old 16mm print, or, we may call it VHS quality, but a print otherwise without much wear and tear. I project all the films I watch to 100"+, and sometimes I can almost imagine that I am seeing the films in a theatre on opening night (A Canterbury Tale last night was a good example of this); at other times (as with Pearls of the Deep) the impression is as of seeing the film at some art house or rerun theatre in an old print, and to me that has its charm too. In the age of immaculate DVD presentations of old films, I think we often forget that to the majority of all people who ever saw these films, the experience was probably closer to the Facets DVD than to the presentations that Criterion and MoC pamper us with.
For all the excellence of the work that a site like Beaver does, I am also a little perturbed, because I know that sites like this help to keep people from seeing films that would otherwise have been important for them to see (I speak from personal experience, and I think you will see a lot of evidence of this in the forum in general). Personally, I would almost always prefer to see a given film, than to not see it at all.
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MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
As a former rep cinema manager, I can sympathise with the thrust of your argument - but what I could have got away with in the 1980s and early 1990s on the grounds that there was literally no viable alternative just isn't acceptable now. Especially not at the prices Facets charges - as someone pointed out earlier, if you're going to cut corners in the transfer and manufacture, you're morally obligated to make similarly hefty cuts in the price tag (for a good example, compare the single-figure price of cheapo Night of the Living Dead discs with the far more expensive Elite version, sourced from the original negative with filmmaker approval). Or at the very least stick a warning-cum-apology for the poor picture quality on the packaging - remember the verbal battering that Second Run took when they didn't do this on Passenger, a disc whose RRP is far less than a typical Facets item?
And while I'm no stranger to poor prints in general, and have also seen plenty where the subtitles were hard to read, I'm really struggling to recall a theatrical presentation where the timing was as badly off as it is here. (I don't count my unfortunate experience with Haneke's Hidden earlier this year, as that turned out to be a bug in the digital projection system).
So while I can sympathise with the desire to cut corners when it comes to the transfer (I commission telecines on a regular basis, and am all too aware how expensive it is to do it properly), I'm baffled as to why the subtitles are so poor - I mean, if you're going to go to the trouble of commissioning a translation and adding subtitles in the first place, what's the point if the quality control is so badly off at the crucial final stage? I'd even be sympathetic if this was the only Facets release with such issues, but it isn't.
I appreciate that decent quality control takes time and effort, and that few are going to go to the kind of lengths that I recently went to (one of my recent corrections to the subs for the forthcoming BFI release of Jan Å vankmajer's The Garden involved changing the spelling of a character's name from 'Maranek' to 'MaÅ™ánek' to reflect the onscreen pronunciation, something I guarantee that at least 95% of producers wouldn't have bothered with and 95% of audiences wouldn't have cared about), but I'm talking about something much more basic than that - not least because it affects appreciation of the end product to an extent out of all proportion to the relatively marginal added cost of getting it right. I mean, we're simply talking about the timing, not the translation or transfer.
(Credit where it's due: the 20-page booklet is excellent. What a shame Facets couldn't have applied the same standards of research and quality control to the disc itself).
And while I'm no stranger to poor prints in general, and have also seen plenty where the subtitles were hard to read, I'm really struggling to recall a theatrical presentation where the timing was as badly off as it is here. (I don't count my unfortunate experience with Haneke's Hidden earlier this year, as that turned out to be a bug in the digital projection system).
So while I can sympathise with the desire to cut corners when it comes to the transfer (I commission telecines on a regular basis, and am all too aware how expensive it is to do it properly), I'm baffled as to why the subtitles are so poor - I mean, if you're going to go to the trouble of commissioning a translation and adding subtitles in the first place, what's the point if the quality control is so badly off at the crucial final stage? I'd even be sympathetic if this was the only Facets release with such issues, but it isn't.
I appreciate that decent quality control takes time and effort, and that few are going to go to the kind of lengths that I recently went to (one of my recent corrections to the subs for the forthcoming BFI release of Jan Å vankmajer's The Garden involved changing the spelling of a character's name from 'Maranek' to 'MaÅ™ánek' to reflect the onscreen pronunciation, something I guarantee that at least 95% of producers wouldn't have bothered with and 95% of audiences wouldn't have cared about), but I'm talking about something much more basic than that - not least because it affects appreciation of the end product to an extent out of all proportion to the relatively marginal added cost of getting it right. I mean, we're simply talking about the timing, not the translation or transfer.
(Credit where it's due: the 20-page booklet is excellent. What a shame Facets couldn't have applied the same standards of research and quality control to the disc itself).
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Scharphedin2
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 am
- Location: Denmark/Sweden
Michael, reading your thoughts on DVD production above (and having seen the work you did on the Quay Brothers Collection), I can only say that I deeply wish and hope that you will produce many, many more DVDs in the future. And, also, that the standards that you set for your work would become the standards of the industry in general.
With respect to Facets and other companies that are less discerning in their production standards, I naturally share the frustration on some level. Yet, I revel in the ability to see so many films these days that I have longed to see for a long time, and I really can only see the glass as "half full." Instead of being frustrated by bad transfers, I simply celebrate every time films are being given the care and respect on DVD that they deserve.
Pricing is not really an issue that frustrates me either. I am happy to pay the money these DVDs cost (irregardless of the production company). I would be happy to pay twice as much for them. If the films were not worth the money, I would not buy them at all.
With respect to Facets and other companies that are less discerning in their production standards, I naturally share the frustration on some level. Yet, I revel in the ability to see so many films these days that I have longed to see for a long time, and I really can only see the glass as "half full." Instead of being frustrated by bad transfers, I simply celebrate every time films are being given the care and respect on DVD that they deserve.
Pricing is not really an issue that frustrates me either. I am happy to pay the money these DVDs cost (irregardless of the production company). I would be happy to pay twice as much for them. If the films were not worth the money, I would not buy them at all.
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Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:20 pm
- Location: New England
- Contact:
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foggy eyes
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:58 pm
- Location: UK
Is the Facets Three Crowns of a Sailor a port of the transfer from the French Blaq Out box? I can't afford the import tax for the R2 set, and am tempted to try the Facets individually because they will be considerably cheaper. I have a feeling I'll regret it, but you never know.... Has anybody seen their Ruiz discs?
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Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:20 pm
- Location: New England
- Contact:
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foggy eyes
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:58 pm
- Location: UK
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sevenarts
- Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 11:22 pm
- Contact:
For anybody interested, the BlaqOut DVDs aren't really that expensive from Xploited Cinema. Haven't seen the Facets versions, though, so I don't know how well they port them over.
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Steven H
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:30 pm
- Location: NC
The first two of hopefully more Hara Kazuo films are coming out soon, The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On (1987), and Extreme Private Eros: Love Song, both are extremely interesting and worth looking into for those with a taste for the new wave documentary. I hope they're not too bad looking.
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Kirkinson
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:34 am
- Location: Portland, OR
Although I can't say for sure because I haven't compared them, the Blaq Out discs were region-free NTSC to begin with, so there shouldn't be anything more involved than a straight copy. I expect (because Facets has deals like this set up with a few other labels) that Blaq Out actually produced the discs themselves and Facets is just the distributor, like when Image releases Ruscico DVDs in the U.S.
Of course, if you don't want to take that chance because it's Facets, that's definitely understandable.
Of course, if you don't want to take that chance because it's Facets, that's definitely understandable.
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Scharphedin2
- Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 am
- Location: Denmark/Sweden
Well, it looks like I will finally also be lowering the parades on this outfit (at least for a while)... I mean poor prints and transfers, high pricing and bad attitude is one thing, but... I finally get my paws on a copy of ...And Give My Love To the Swallows, I snap that little beauty out of its case, only to find the entire surface of the disc smeared in some thick encrusted opaque goo, as if someone had whipped out his one-eyed jack in an unguarded moment, and allowed it to leak its nectar of life all over the bloody disc (pardon me, if I am waxing poetically uncouth in this situation, but no other description quite seems to fit the bill on this disappointment)!
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HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:46 pm
Jesus Scharf, what a story....
Does anybody here have their VHS' of Weine's RASKALNIKOV? Or know what the hell DVD (!?) copy of Pabst's sublime DER SCHATZ is from? Or VHS:
the very rare HARAKIRI by Lang (1919)? How about Putzi Jiel's Mother Krausen's Journey into Happiness? Or one of the earliest lurid exploitation films, Reinerts OPIUM from 1919? Picks SHATTERED?
Since we're assessing titles by calling out into the void to see if anyone has actually seen some of these rarities, I figure some may actually have seen some of these and can comment.
Does anybody here have their VHS' of Weine's RASKALNIKOV? Or know what the hell DVD (!?) copy of Pabst's sublime DER SCHATZ is from? Or VHS:
the very rare HARAKIRI by Lang (1919)? How about Putzi Jiel's Mother Krausen's Journey into Happiness? Or one of the earliest lurid exploitation films, Reinerts OPIUM from 1919? Picks SHATTERED?
Since we're assessing titles by calling out into the void to see if anyone has actually seen some of these rarities, I figure some may actually have seen some of these and can comment.
