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I feel we’re drifting off-topic now, but if I can tie some of the above conversation back to the question of whether or not to release Triumph of the Will, I feel this is a key point to acknowledge: since the end of WWII and the fall of Hitler, goose-stepping, sieg heiling, swastikas, Hugo Boss uniforms et al are and always have been explicitly subcultural symbols. That subculture persists, and don’t get me wrong: the people who comprise them are despicable thugs. But they are and will remain marginal, even if they find it easier to recruit at some moments than others.

The success of the modern fascists like Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Kast, Hanson here in Australia etc. functions precisely by cloaking themselves in comfortable and familiar iconography: they’re far more likely to associate themselves with a 1950s convenience store ad than to say anything even equivocal about Hitler. That’s the direct opposite of the subcultural symbolism that appeals to transgressive impulses. It’s not so much that Trump and people like him explicitly define themselves as anti-Nazi (though they will put on a show of outrage if you dare to notice any similarities), but that they understand that any chance of mainstream appeal depends on an image of unthreatening normality – that way, they can paint the left as the radical and transgressive force that they’re defending us against.

That’s the real (and growing) danger we have to confront in our societies, not the American History X larpers; those people are dangerous to an extent and more prone to acts of lone-wolf violence and terrorism, but they still exist off to the side of real power. So that’s why I think any concept of Triumph of the Will as dangerous media misunderstands the moment entirely: fascism doesn’t come as a mirror of culturally understood fascisms from the distant past, but in the benign garb of our own cultures’ ambient nostalgia, which is defined partially or entirely against an alien past reflected in artefacts like Triumph of the Will.

It’s much easier to ban something peripheral than tackle that problem, and I think that’s honestly why some people focus so much on the easier lay-ups: it’s a way to avoid confronting ideological shifts that are far too big for cultural authorities to control. It’s easy to believe you’re doing the right thing by focusing on small victories, but if pressuring Kino to drop a Blu-ray release is that easy – and it probably would be, if there were enough groundswell behind a petition like this – then maybe that’s an indicator of how far away something like this is from the locus of power. We tinker around the edges at our peril.

spectre wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 10:55 am I feel we’re drifting off-topic now, but if I can tie some of the above conversation back to the question of whether or not to release Triumph of the Will, I feel this is a key point to acknowledge: since the end of WWII and the fall of Hitler, goose-stepping, sieg heiling, swastikas, Hugo Boss uniforms et al are and always have been explicitly subcultural symbols. That subculture persists, and don’t get me wrong: the people who comprise them are despicable thugs. But they are and will remain marginal, even if they find it easier to recruit at some moments than others.

The success of the modern fascists like Trump, Farage, Le Pen, Kast, Hanson here in Australia etc. functions precisely by cloaking themselves in comfortable and familiar iconography: they’re far more likely to associate themselves with a 1950s convenience store ad than to say anything even equivocal about Hitler. That’s the direct opposite of the subcultural symbolism that appeals to transgressive impulses. It’s not so much that Trump and people like him explicitly define themselves as anti-Nazi (though they will put on a show of outrage if you dare to notice any similarities), but that they understand that any chance of mainstream appeal depends on an image of unthreatening normality – that way, they can paint the left as the radical and transgressive force that they’re defending us against.

That’s the real (and growing) danger we have to confront in our societies, not the American History X larpers; those people are dangerous to an extent and more prone to acts of lone-wolf violence and terrorism, but they still exist off to the side of real power. So that’s why I think any concept of Triumph of the Will as dangerous media misunderstands the moment entirely: fascism doesn’t come as a mirror of culturally understood fascisms from the distant past, but in the benign garb of our own cultures’ ambient nostalgia, which is defined partially or entirely against an alien past reflected in artefacts like Triumph of the Will.

It’s much easier to ban something peripheral than tackle that problem, and I think that’s honestly why some people focus so much on the easier lay-ups: it’s a way to avoid confronting ideological shifts that are far too big for cultural authorities to control. It’s easy to believe you’re doing the right thing by focusing on small victories, but if pressuring Kino to drop a Blu-ray release is that easy – and it probably would be, if there were enough groundswell behind a petition like this – then maybe that’s an indicator of how far away something like this is from the locus of power. We tinker around the edges at our peril.

Well said and beautifully stated. I could not agree more.

Fascism is permeating so deeply it appears as if most people cannot even recognize it as it is becoming almost 'normal'. What's changed in the past 2000 years from the Roman 'bread and circuses' (the grain dole and gladiator/chariot fights)? Now we have Big Macs and football. Keep the people dumb. Have them learn scripts. Do not reward out-of-the-box thinking. Keep them anesthetized. And every two years in the Olys.... USA! USA! USA! Our new sieg heil.

And instead of book-burning, we have large-scale document deletion: less visually eye-catching, but in many ways far more insidious.

Fantastic post spectre, and some great discussion all round.

spectre wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 10:55 am That’s the real (and growing) danger we have to confront in our societies, not the American History X larpers; those people are dangerous to an extent and more prone to acts of lone-wolf violence and terrorism, but they still exist off to the side of real power. So that’s why I think any concept of Triumph of the Will as dangerous media misunderstands the moment entirely: fascism doesn’t come as a mirror of culturally understood fascisms from the distant past, but in the benign garb of our own cultures’ ambient nostalgia, which is defined partially or entirely against an alien past reflected in artefacts like Triumph of the Will.

It’s much easier to ban something peripheral than tackle that problem, and I think that’s honestly why some people focus so much on the easier lay-ups: it’s a way to avoid confronting ideological shifts that are far too big for cultural authorities to control

I wish we could talk about MAGA without using the word fascism. It is not a fascist movement, it's something *new*. If "fascism" is taken to mean "feverish mass movement that scapegoats vulnerable groups, fantasizes about those groups constantly and enacts violence against them," then yes, MAGA is fascist. However, that's not what the term means. MAGA aren't Nazis, and they haven't intended to commit genocide. But sending innocent people to CECOT, building a prison camp called "Alligator Alcatraz" and laughing about illegal immigrants being eaten by alligators, those are absolutely toxic pathologies and group dynamics that can snowball towards worse.

Genuinely ugly, genuinely deplorable, genuinely concerning stuff. But when we yell "Nazi," they yell "Trump derangement syndrome!" Saying "Nazi" and "fascist" invites people to notice all the ways that comparison doesn't work, and enables them to downplay their own pathology. To say "we're clearly not *Nazis." Yet there are so many examples of off-the-rails authoritarian nationhood other than Germany's. The liberal rhetorical imagination thinks "Trump! Strongman! Racist! Fascism," pictures a Nazi from an Indiana Jones movie, tweets "punch Nazis" and calls it a day.

As to what MAGA *is* as a political formation? A combination of demagoguery, xenophobia, racial fears, fantasy about real and potential violence (given and received), a shattered public sphere, private-sector propaganda, election denialism, a suspension of norms, including norms of truth-telling, an Orban-esque melding of state and private power, a foray into "competitive authoritarianism", shameless self-enrichment... plus some understandable objections and grievances which a reasonable person can empathize with without agreeing with those grievances, or validating the movement.

But the movement has a dozen rhetorical policies and only one or two real ones. No coherent or viable political vision. The brand is narcissistic fantasy: "big," "strong," "respected," "respected again," "hottest economy."

It's an absolute sh*tshow. And the movement justifies itself by comparison to the alternative sh*tshows to its left - the senility farce of "Weekend At Biden's" and the nutty strains of activism. And the lust for censorship.

Censorship is like throwing water on a grease fire. It blows up and causes new problems without stopping the fire. Or like duct-taping orifices- all the crap's going to come out eventually, and the build-up makes it worse. Liberals may fall back on the accusation of fascism because our anxieties, rhetorical hang-ups and neuroses have so inhibited our internal dialogue and collective cognition that we have shortened our own vocabulary.

Beloved Aunt wrote: Sun May 24, 2026 3:05 am I've come round--partially--to the "they're all the same" thing, somewhat, because, well, sometimes they more or less are, like in my country (Canada) right now, the differences between our new prime minister, a pretty shitty, weaselly guy named Mark Carney, and the conservative opposition, are such thin fucking gruel, and the conservatives are probably not that likely to actually turn Canada into a fascist state all that much more than it already is, or to do what Trump is doing regarding elections, and the political fate of my country isn't so important to the rest of the world and the future of humanity, that it really matters all that much--at least right now. I think in the United States and Brazil, on the very, very much other hand, there is absolutely no excuse for the left, and anyone who has real values, to not always vote against the Republicans, and against Jair Bolsonaro and his idiot son. These people must be defeated.

Well I, a Canadian, disagree with just about everything you said here, but hey, I hear there's a Political Thread somewhere.

Is this your good faith effort to actually engage in the discussion or are you just here to make snide suggestions and then leave?

Feel free to dump these posts in the Politics Thread. I'm not really enormously informed about Carney, but since you disagree why don't you tell/inform me: what has he done for the left/leftist values (if indeed that is what you mean when you say you disagree?)

I'm giving this thread a few days' time-out since it's no longer about the actual release and you're all getting snippy.