The Sci-Fi List Discussion and Suggestions (Genre Project)

[knives]

In a sense the film is about the conflict between science and fantasy with Gilliam clearly on the fantastic side.

[Dr Amicus]

As indeed are Gilliam's next two films. Brazil will make my list, but much as I like Bandits and Munchausen, I see them as Fantasies and it just doesn't feel right. Although, thinking about it, I know the original Munchausen tales often get included in histories of Science Fiction as a form of Proto-SF so that has at least a partial claim to appropriateness.

[colinr0380]

I just see Gilliam's films as mostly being in the genre of 'harrowing dramas' about the loss of innocence (occasionally involving actual child abduction) and the tragically frail defence of touchingly naive dreams which crumble at the slightest touch. Fantasy in the purest sense. Even 12 Monkeys, which actually has a sci-fi premise eventually is more interested in the La Jetée plot element of a man resolving his childhood vision even if it means that it circumscribes his life within an inescapable closed loop.

(Which reminds me that presumably La Jetée is eligible for the list too?)

[swo17]

If La Jetée isn't sci-fi then nothing is

[therewillbeblus]

I know the original Munchausen tales often get included in histories of Science Fiction as a form of Proto-SF so that has at least a partial claim to appropriateness.

Hmm now I feel like I need to go back and watch Zeman's film to see if it qualifies, and now that I'm mentioning it, so many Zeman films. I recently located all of his work that I haven't seen, so if anyone wants to spotlight a favorite that fits the bill, I'll prioritize it

[knives]

Just a few more last minute suggestions that I don't think have been mentioned yet.
Firstly, I want I bring up Watkins' twin efforts of Punishment Park and Privilege which I doubt I need to defend, but might be under the radar because the way they use genre is pretty sly. Gladiators and War Game also are worth thinking about though they probably won't be making my list just because it's been so long,

For completely crazy suggestions though how about William Castle's Project X which is one of the most emotionally exhausting films I've ever seen and highlights why he should be considered more than a gimmick director. It's another film in that Je t'aime je t'aime school of a machine forcing a man to consider who he is though I think it far superior to Resnais' effort. Another weird one, though this time for fun is Return of the Killer Tomatoes which is simply one of the most hilarious films ever. It's in the Monty Python/ The Jerk school of of erudite randomness.

Perhaps more traditionally Summer Wars is a must see. Hosoda is one of Japan's greatest living filmmakers and this sees him returning to his early career work on Digimon for an action packed look at summer stress and the interconnected world. Also in animation while Fantastic Planet will probably get the lion's share of the love Gandahar is my Laloux of choice as it plays with time in a way that is just catnip for me.

In the same loopy time perspective another recommendation is Hill's Slaughterhouse-Five. I actually don't particularly like Vonnegut's book terribly much, but I think Hill takes away the worst traits of the book and emphasizes the sense of time slipping and the tension of Alzheimer's in a way unlike any other work I've encountered.

My big '50s rec is Colossus of New York which plays as the glue between Frankenstein and Robocop as we depressingly see how humanity is connected to the body whether we want to believe that or not.

I feel like there's a ton more I should have recommended, but whatevs.

[therewillbeblus]

I think I've thrown most of my dark horse recs out there somewhere, but while I don't expect it to be orphaned, I realize that I never wrote more about eXistenZ as I planned to after my writeup from the horror project revealed it as much less successful for that genre. It's the only Cronenberg currently on my list and will make the top half easy. I don't really have anything on-hand to add to my last string of thoughts, but will repost them here just in case anyone wants to fit in a fun viewing before submissions. It feels like Cronenberg is making a Hitchcock wrong-man thriller, with a cheeky self-reflexive ending on viewership habits of expectations towards twists themselves, if that helps.

eXistenZ still holds up as one of the most entertaining films I’ve ever seen, a weird on-the-run thriller that recalls Hitchcock’s best adventure travelogue, in sci-fi milieu. I’d actually put this on a neo-noir list, with its fatalist physicality causing friction against the concept of free will, on top of the structural similarities in systemic maneuvering, before I would put it on a horror one. The horror would only materialize for me on questioning reality, the fear of various mediums of AI closing that consciousness, or the fumblings on losing control of one’s agency; but the idea of living in a lucid dream is more interesting than anything, and this film doesn’t pose that question as an existential horror on identity diffusion or powerlessness as much as an engaging escapism that allows us to live in a great movie. We are allowed passive and interactive enjoyment together at once and any commentary is secondary to enjoyment, which I suppose is part of that commentary! The ‘body horror,’ while in perhaps its fullest force in all of Cronenberg, is purely for fun and bordering on self-parody. Yeah there’s an ending that causes us to question what perspective we’ve been viewing the film from all along, but that just serves as a punchline reinforcing the ideas consistent throughout. Plus it’s an intelligent take on the worst kind of ending ever, rolled out so reflexively to the themes and the ridiculousness of the idea it’s mimicking in a collective layering, that it succeeds in spades. Plus any judgment on audience habits is sidelined by an even greater punchline that throws the entire idea of reality and rigid perspectives that perpetuate such judgments under the bus. So in the final line Cronenberg gets one last laugh by making fun of the very thematic stance we think he just casually meditated on in the preceding twist. I’ll save this for my sci-fi list, on which it’ll place high and maybe I’ll have more to say on genre analysis when judged along those lines.

[Mr Sausage]

eXistenZ is my pick for the best of the run of late 90s sci fi that used shifting levels of reality to explore uncertainty and authenticity (the other big ones being of course The Matrix and Dark City). Unlike those two, Cronenberg’s film didn’t resolve into special heroes successfully sifting truth from lies, but had people whose identities, motivations, and basic sense of control shift from reality to reality until no one is sure who is meant to be doing what. Plus it’s hysterical and having a lot of fun playing with genre elements.

[therewillbeblus]

Just for fun I did a scan through my tentative list, and sure enough not only do I agree but there are only three other "late 90s" films on my list (one of which is Dark City) and they're right at the very bottom so presumably could be cut. The only other 90s film within the top 45 is Jurassic Park. 75% of my list is from the new millennium, which I guess is in the spirit of the genre's gaze towards the future.

[Rayon Vert]

If I'm counting right, the 2010s ends up being the most represented decade on mine (70s follows).

[therewillbeblus]

Wow I thought mine was an even split between the two millennium decades but nope, I'm with you with an exact half of my list coming from the 2010s

[Never Cursed]

Yep, 13/25 on my draft list from the 2010s

[Maltic]

Late to the party here.

I take it cartoon shorts are eligible? Clampett's The Old Grey Hare (Elmer Fudd, in the year 2000, reads newspaper: "Smellavision replaces television!?") and Jones' Duck Dodgers in the 24½th Century

TWBB (I think) mentioned that Gremlins 2 wouldn't cut it for him, but it does have a mad scientist who genetically engineers a giant spider, a super high-IQ Gremlin, and a fruit-faced Arcimboldo Gremlin, and it takes place in that building which wouldn't be out-of-place in Robocop.

Defending Your Life. Technically, it's the afterlife, but the world has the sci-fi "future" or alternate universe trappings.

Bava's Lisa and the Devil is perhaps a bit of a stretch, but Telly Savalas does...

Spoiler

bring dummies/corpses to life as a sort of Dr. Frankenstein.

I like Firefox and The Hunt for Red October and they both revolve around a piece of future tech, but they might not be SF'ey enough for my list.

[domino harvey]

Animated shorts such as Looney Tunes are eligible, yes

[therewillbeblus]

Gremlins 2 definitely meets the parameters of sci-fi just based off including alien life, but I think I said that my reservations were sourced in how I'm approaching the genre, which is that for me the strength of a sci-fi film is based on using irregular variables related to an alternate reality to provoke thoughts and feelings familiar to this one. This is why I'll be including Mauvais Sang, where the No Authentic Love STD is outside of any visual action, because it impacts the themes so strongly, while some films that tamper with time travel as a device like Time Bandits, or use fun science to service Tashlin-like gags in Gremlins 2 won't cut it for me. In those examples, the effects are sourced in the creativity behind the gags or the adventure of the Gilliam journey, not an elicitation of internal responses directly related to the science fiction elements. That's by no means a blueprint for how anyone else should consider their ballot strategy, but I find it important for what the genre means to me. Duck Dodgers in the 24½th Century, however, absolutely uses its science fiction to trigger my imagination, perhaps in a less philosophical and more superficial way, but damned if I don't love it (I have fond memories of seeing it for the first time at the Brattle as a kid, back when they'd do Looney Tunes marathons on July 4th). Anyways, great suggestion that will probably make my final tally now one-film tougher to ween down (and I just rewatched it a week or so ago, without even thinking about it for this list!)

[dustybooks]

Duck Dodgers is a great idea; the team of Chuck Jones and Michael Maltese was such a juggernaut in the ‘50s.

The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy miniseries, with six episodes, has a single director so I’m thinking it’s eligible for the list... Not being a huge sci-fi person generally, I still find Douglas Adams’ work endlessly inspiring and witty. And while I greatly enjoyed Garth Jennings’ feature film version when it was released, the miniseries has lingered in my head longer and I appreciate its more unapologetic eccentricity.

I’ll be voting for a few Twilight Zones, several which are probably obvious (Time Enough at Last is a well-worn choice but it’s just so elegant) but I don’t know how many folks remember The Trade-Ins, one of the most touching scripts Rod Serling wrote and an episode I’d easily rate above the series’ more famous senior citizen story Kick the Can. (I wondered about the eligibility of It’s a Good Life, which I still find effectively terrifying, but despite my having read Jerome Bixby’s short story in a sci-fi anthology, I’m not sure it really qualifies as science fiction...)

[therewillbeblus]

I wondered about the eligibility of It’s a Good Life, which I still find effectively terrifying, but despite my having read Jerome Bixby’s short story in a sci-fi anthology, I’m not sure it really qualifies as science fiction...

After making many cuts, It’s a Good Life will probably be the only anthology episode of anything making my list (sorry Black Mirror). I never considered it ‘not’ counting, because beyond just telekinesis the horror is derived from a force of will not abiding by our laws of will power, and the ensuing terror feels in the spirit of sci-fi as opposed to other films that tackle telekinesis. The entire small town and family are held hostage by this “progress” of a mind’s evolution. I can see how it’d be debatable for some, but for me that idea fits squarely within the realm of sci-fi's greatest potential to elicit awareness of our limitations and vulnerabilities. If this bent more towards a detached fantasy I don’t think it would nearly as affecting.

[bottled spider]

The Abyss (Cameron, 1989). God help me but that resuscitation scene is a scream. Like something out of Airplane!. Apart from that comic high point the movie didn't engage me at all, I think in part because it lacked the super sharp delineation of character and clarity of conflict found in, say, Jurassic Park or Die Hard. I also suspect there were visual reasons for my lack of interest, but identifying them would take comparative analysis of the kind in that video I posted explaining the superiority of the original Jurassic Park over the sequels.

Moon (Jones, 2009). Contrary to the many variations on "good idea, poor execution" found on Letterboxd, it's the ideas that are bad. The mining operation struck me as implausible -- the output too meagre for the outlay -- as did the notion of manning such an operation with a lone human. More fundamentally,

Spoiler

the clone business is too far-fetched. A clone in the simple sense of a genetic copy is of course essentially the same thing as an identical twin. Whatever the technical challenges, inducing a stem cell to divide and form an embryo, and then growing it in an artificial womb is no more miraculous than natural reproduction. But cloning in the sense of creating full grown copies of adults with identical memories and personalities is just too fantastical. And even if I could just go along with the existence of that type of cloning as a given premise, the scam perpetrated by the mining company just seems too baroque and nefarious for the supposed economic benefit.

The film fails as serious science fiction and even more so as simple entertainment

[therewillbeblus]

Coincoin and the Extra-Humans (Bruno Dumont, 2018)

I’m going to do my best to get to your recs that I haven’t seen yet before this project ends, though I’m curious to hear more about the Dumont since this film doesn’t seem to have any thoughts recorded on the forum. Quinquin is probably my favorite of his, and I tend to prefer his later sillier stuff (though I can’t say I’m a convert either way), so this being a sequel I’m inclined to jump on it, but it’d be helpful motivation to prioritize a long film like this with some more info- and as a Dumont fan yourself I’d be interested to hear your impressions

[swo17]

I don't like it quite as much as Quinquin but let me assure you that it's very straightforwardly both a sci-fi movie and very silly. Quinquin years later (same actor) is now called Coincoin, and finds himself amid an alien invasion of sorts. There is no extra budget this time around though, which Dumont plays as a strength.

[therewillbeblus]

Agreed, I watched Coincoin and the Extra-Humans tonight and enjoyed it as an even lighter, lackadaisical look at absurd human behavior in the social environment compared to the original. I particularly appreciated a few eccentric details like the young man who has a deep adult voice clearly dubbed in an intentional mismatch, like a slightly less outrageous version of Martin from Tu dors Nicole, and of course the wonderfully frenetic phone call between the captain and his "clown." The last hour is great, especially the finale which I thought was one of the funniest of Dumont's setpieces. I agree that Quinquin is probably better overall, but Dumont plays this one right by eliminating the blend of seriousness in human mortality and amplifying the careless insanity.

Also, worth noting that these 50s B-sci-fis from your list are free on Amazon Prime:

Robot Monster
The Brain That Wouldn't Die
Teenagers from Outer Space
The Hideous Sun Demon

[bottled spider]

Miracle Mile (De Jarnatt 1988). (1st viewing) In a similar vein… (INCYDK) A guy in downtown L.A. picks up a call on a public pay phone and gets advance notice that nuclear war is going to launch in over an hour. This is such a wild ride. It starts off so unassumingly and innocently, and there’s a slight, darkly humorous vibe that persists along with the drama, the suspense and the unbelievably grim threat, not to mention the central romantic (almost rom-com) dimension. The film gets progressively more engrossing as it gets more daringly manic and plunges into more and more chaos. You’re never quite sure if it’s going to happen and

Spoiler

the fact that the film ends the way it does is really a disturbing shock given the hope we are allowed to have at some point that there has been a mistake, along with the way that ending completely subverts the typical romantic com-dram conventions. But the decision to end the film in such an uncompromising way gives it a shocking power.

The combination of all of those similar story elements and dissonant tones really evokes what Seeking a Friend for the End of the World later tries to achieve, but for me anyway this was a lot more effective.

I was wavering on this because on the one hand I loved De Jarnatt's Cherry 2000, while on the other hand this didn't sound like science fiction. Your review tipped the balance, and I'm glad I saw it. What a miracle of tone, at almost every point simultaneously straight-faced and tongue-in-cheek, yet completely involving. Cherry 2000 also had that over-the-top, serious-but-kidding-but-serious quality.

[Rayon Vert]

Glad you liked it!


Panic in Year Zero (Milland 1962). (1st viewing) I didn’t know Milland directed. He plays Harry who leaves with his wife and two kids for a camping trip in the Sierra Mountains when after flashes in the skies they eventually figure out L.A., along with other major American and Western cities, has been hit with nuclear bombs. This was released close to the Cuban Missile Crisis so I was expecting something more sober in tone but typical of AIP it’s executed in a purely exploitational spirit, as we watch Harry immediately drop the suburban identity when he figures out what’s happening and change into a macho, gung-ho survivalist at-all-costs, much to the dismay of his still morally intact wife. Frankie Avalon, who looks about 16 and this was three years after Venus (!?), plays the son who’s only to glad to join his father in the dog-eat-dog primitivism. Strikingly inappropriate jazzy music plays along to the action, and the film seems to have no clue about what massive nuclear war would mean in terms of radioactive fallout, nuclear winter and basic planet unlivableness. But taken as exploitation in bad taste, it’s pretty damn entertaining and fun in a twisted way.


The Incredible Shrinking Man (Arnold 1957). (1st viewing) I already had this one programmed for this week. I really liked the beginning and the psychological and relationship drama, and less when the film becomes a straight survival adventure in the microscopic world. But that’s not to take away how impressed I was with the staging of all those scenes. Pretty bleak as well, and the “deep” ending not what you’d expect.


The Sticky Fingers of Time (Brougher 1997). (1st viewing) An eccentric low-budget indie mystery where a genetic “soul code” mutation in certain “time freaks” gives them the ability to travel through non-linear time. The film shifts back and forth from the 50s to the 90s and goes from B&W to color. Not immediately easy to understand as these mind-bending films usually are, but the film stands out for its lead characters being mostly queer women and the strong noir dimension that’s almost played on the level of parody. Interesting most of the time, but the acting has amateurish moments.


2010: The Year We Make Contact (Hyams 1984). (revisit?) I remember reading the novel for some reason when the film came out, but I’m not sure about the film itself. Three Americans join up on the Soviet mission to reach Discovery One before it orbit decays into Io and to investigate HAL’s malfunction. If you can separate it from its predecessor - this is prose to Kubrick’s poetry is probably the best way of putting it -, it’s a decent and enjoyable film even if all the parts don’t coalesce completely successfully (special effects here are decent for the era, but just demonstrate again how the much superior ones in the ’68 film were ahead of their time). The fact that the story plays up against the background of potential World War III between the two superpowers back on Earth gives it a flavor of its own (a blockade in Honduras), and the acting of Roy Scheider and Helen Mirren (she the Russian Captain) gives it some weight. Interesting how the slingshot maneuver in Interstellar was done here first. (And btw every single space film I see has a ship that has insufficient fuel needed for what it ends up having to do - doesn’t anybody ever think about packing in just a little extra in case of unforeseen developments?)


Alien: Covenant (Scott 2017). (1st viewing) I didn’t originally plan on seeing this but I was curious enough after liking Prometheus quite a bit, even though going in with low expectations based partly on reading the reactions on this forum when it came out. I was still frankly surprised at how lousy this was. Starts OK with the usual crew on the ship bit, but once we land on the new planet it quickly devolves into a completely unoriginal and just plain bad story. It doesn’t even work on the basic level of suspense, it’s just a lot of gore from no-longer shocking imagery we’ve seen before and obvious CGI. Boring.


Capricorn One (Hyams 1977). (1st viewing) After viewing this I don’t consider it really having the credentials for this list since it’s about a manned Mars landing that’s faked, and is really more of a post-Watergate malaise conspiracy thriller. A fun film though, that got better as it progressed after some iffy acting in the beginning. The tone is serious but it does sometimes have a lighter edge, including action sequences that have a North by Northwest sort of vibe. Part of that also is Elliot Gould as the investigative reporter with a lousy reputation which is almost a riff on his performance in The Long Goodbye. Brolin, Waterston and OJ are the screwed-over astronauts, plus you get Telly Savalas so it doesn’t get more 70s than this, but in a good way.

---

This is the end of the road for me with this project. I enjoyed it very much, even though it seems like this wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea. For me personally all those confined-in-space and apocalypse films were pretty appropriate for the last five months of lockdown, and probably helped in a strange way. 152 films viewed specifically for this project, and 27 of those made my list.

Breakdown per decade for my top 50:
14: 2010s
11: 1970s
8: 1960s
6: 1950s
4: 1980s
4: 2000s
2: 1930s
1: 2020s (no, not Tenet)

(nothing for the '90s, surprisingly - Jurassic Park ranked at no. 58)

[therewillbeblus]

Wait a second.. your 2020s note reminds me of a catastrophic omission from my recommendations list, and my own list, which will be sure to be remedied immediately: The Midnight Gospel, Pendleton Ward's miniseries on Netflix. I've already discussed my admiration for the film in its dedicated thread here but if you haven't seen it yet, I can't recommend it highly enough. It's deceptively a TV show broken into episodes of podcasts but its structure packs a punch to reveal a cohesive deliberate build of narrative toward one of the most emotional endings in anything ever.

[Murdoch]

Thanks for reminding me, twbb. It'll be high on my list too.