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Yes, I think you're correct in that it's likely a matter of perspective. In any case, the consumer has options. We shall see if they go with: DVD, Blu-ray, and UHD/Blu-ray. If this is the case, then everyone is happy. Some folks on another forum were dumping water on today's announcement because I think they're afraid of purchasing a UHD/Blu combo with no Blu only option.

I have a lot of sympathy for those water-dumpers. I'm not "afraid" of it, but I find the prospect of being forced to pay more for the same thing incredibly irritating considering how much of my income already goes to this hobby. I'd also rather harness my will power towards managing resentment in other areas of my life, and not have that seep into the domain that I find comfort in, but that's totally a 'me' problem.

It's also possible/likely that not every future Criterion release will be available in 4K UHD. Certainly, it would be difficult to justify something like the Marlon Riggs' set in UHD. In those cases, I can't imagine the releases wouldn't be issued in stand-alone Blu-ray.

It's 2021. Are people really still going to complain about paying $10 more for a "coaster"? The world is ending before our eyes, live it up for once

They picked a great first wave as far as diversity. I am one-two'd by happiness that not only is Menace getting reinstated but in 4k out the gate. It's an extremely well shot/well lit film to benefit from the format and if they carry over the laserdisc commentary which is one of the best I have ever listened to, well you got me double sold.

Roger Ryan wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:17 pm It's also possible/likely that not every future Criterion release will be available in 4K UHD. Certainly, it would be difficult to justify something like the Marlon Riggs' set in UHD. In those cases, I can't imagine the releases wouldn't be issued in stand-alone Blu-ray.

Agree, I don't see Criterion doing the upgrades to UHD the way they went from DVD to bluray. The market has changed since then.

swo17 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:29 pm It's 2021. Are people really still going to complain about paying $10 more for a "coaster"? The world is ending before our eyes, live it up for once

As I recall it, weren't people complaining about paying exactly the same amount as they were paying before and getting the future-proofed coaster for free?

Roger Ryan wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:17 pm It's also possible/likely that not every future Criterion release will be available in 4K UHD. Certainly, it would be difficult to justify something like the Marlon Riggs' set in UHD. In those cases, I can't imagine the releases wouldn't be issued in stand-alone Blu-ray.

It is safe to assume most titles will not be getting a UHD release. If I had to guess, I would say the plan is 1 or 2 UHDs a month (1 new and 1 catalog upgrade) with the other 3 to 5 titles being released on Blu-ray and DVD.

What percentage of current releases are sourced from 4K restorations? Certainly not all of them, and I don't know that there being one ensures a UHD every time, but we can dare to dream.

zedz wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:34 pm

swo17 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:29 pm It's 2021. Are people really still going to complain about paying $10 more for a "coaster"? The world is ending before our eyes, live it up for once

As I recall it, weren't people complaining about paying exactly the same amount as they were paying before and getting the future-proofed coaster for free?

If you were a Blu-ray collector, you were getting a DVD for free. If you were a DVD collector, you would have to forego a $10 discount per title to futureproof.

One key difference here is that a UHD collector will use all of the discs in the package to consume both the movie and extras. The only disc in the combo that could be described as a "coaster" is the UHD for a Blu-ray collector that refuses to ever upgrade, though that seems like an unfairly harsh way to characterize a shiny mysterious disc you can't play that theoretically contains the Platonic ideal of a film. I might think of it like a release that contains a soundtrack CD as a bonus disc. I hardly ever listen to those, but I think they're nice to have around in case I ever felt motivated to use them to experience the film in another way

zedz wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:34 pm

swo17 wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 8:29 pm It's 2021. Are people really still going to complain about paying $10 more for a "coaster"? The world is ending before our eyes, live it up for once

As I recall it, weren't people complaining about paying exactly the same amount as they were paying before and getting the future-proofed coaster for free?

Yeah, that's ridiculous (though as I continue to spend more and more money on expanding shelving, I have begun to account for the width of these dual format/region B blus as I navigate purchase choices), but some of us live paycheck to paycheck and ten dollars per disc across boutique companies omitting blu-only options is a lot when added up. Sure, it's cool to have that "maybe one day" disc, and sure, it's not for every movie bought, but enough companies are moving in this direction for it to make an impact. Will it stop me from purchasing altogether? No. Is it obnoxious and inconvenient to my income level? Yes. And as a former cigarette-smoker who has done the math on those $10 packs added up across time, this is ringing a few alarm bells- even if, adaptable as we are, we'll make it work.

It would be really dumb for them to not have a BD only option, unless the price ends up being the same for the UHD+BD option. I also want to know how much cardboard and how many slots with scratched up (or defective) discs will be involved...

Once my list of titles I'd consider getting on UHD reaches three digits, I'm willing to upgrade. But if Criterion give us the choice of BD and UHD/BD dual formats for titles that are 4k ready, I *think* I'd be inclined to getting the DF release.

fdm wrote: Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:38 pm It would be really dumb for them to not have a BD only option, unless the price ends up being the same for the UHD+BD option. I also want to know how much cardboard and how many slots with scratched up (or defective) discs will be involved...

They have 2 and 3 disc plastic cases so this move shouldn't necessitate digipaks unless they were going to do one for a particular title anyway

I don't see how they can't release a UHD for every new addition to the collection. Wouldn't everybody be waiting for the other shoe to drop if they didn't? I know I would. While it seems like UHD market is still mostly reserved for classics, I would think that's going to change over the course of the next couple years. Or maybe physical media really is nearly dead and I should be happy to get anything at all. I admit to being a little out of touch these days but I've also already bought 300+ movies twice from criterion alone. Trying to decide to wait for a UHD upgrade or jump on the 2k blu of the next Fassbinder (for example) title released by CC will really be maddening for me.

As I understand it, the jump from DVD to blu was much greater than the jump from blu to UHD, but that's a layman's oversimplification and certainly unfair to the champions of the format. Point is, when the world became HD (meaning every TV/streamer forced a glaringly obvious alteration in quality), DVD quality really showed as poor, but since all this equipment needs to be upgraded to really perceive the intended effects of UHD, I don't think the same trend will take place in quite the same way

It's also not at all financially feasible for any of these boutique labels to release their entire slate on UHD. They all pick a smattering here and there, and I'd expect Criterion to do the same.

Rights (not every company licenses UHD rights), transfers (not everything is done in 4K), elements (even if something is scanned in 4K, elements may be too rough that a UHD release isn't necessary) and costs (some titles just will not sell enough to justify the extra expense) are a few issues that will prevent them from going UHD on every new title.

Regarding the availability of 4K transfers, that actually happens a lot more often than I thought. For instance, of all Criterion's currently upcoming titles, only these are from less than 4K sources (surprisingly, one very recent film and two upgrades):

Beasts of No Nation
Mona Lisa
The Damned
Onibaba

Yes, the availability of 4k transfer/restoration is far greater than people would casually assume. The other day I did a less than comprehensive survey and it turned out there were already more than 1,000 4k restorations of classic cinema out there.

On the one hand, it's true that not everyone has a UHD player, and that the benefits of this format change are arguably less than the benefits of the last format change, and that they don't have the assets to release everything in the new format. But literally all of that was true of the DVD to Blu-ray transition, too, and yet eventually, having a DVD-only release started to seem absurd and unsatisfactory. The same will happen here, and eventually (not this year, probably not next year) everything will be released on UHD-BD.

In fact, I'd argue that the sharp decline of discery is going to speed up that transition: If you aren't a total stickler for picture/sound quality and just want to watch a movie in "good enough" quality, you can do that via streaming. The Criterion Channel is excellent! The people who still are buying discs are those who get frustrated by the infelicities of streaming quality, and those people are not super-interested in suboptimal compromise formats like legacy Blu-ray.

swo17 wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:57 am Regarding the availability of 4K transfers, that actually happens a lot more often than I thought. For instance, of all Criterion's currently upcoming titles, only these are from less than 4K sources (surprisingly, one very recent film and two upgrades):

Beasts of No Nation
Mona Lisa
The Damned
Onibaba

I was wondering how/why Beasts of No Nation is only 2k

black&huge wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:43 amI was wondering how/why Beasts of No Nation is only 2k

I guess it was shot that way

Yes. The version of the Arri Alexa XT they shot Beasts of No Nation with was a 2k camera.

will there be 2 line-ups ? Blu-Ray only (even if their original source is in X4 ? for instance "Deep Cover" should/could have been released in Ultra-HD) and Ultra-HD+Blu-Ray combo ?
that would mean more Criterion titles each month.

I think that they will drop probably the DVD in favor of the blu-ray. After all, all Ultra-HD combo comes with a Blu-Ray, not a DVD. So, basically the packaging won't change (Blu-ray+Ultra HD) instead of Blu-Ray + DVD. At best a digital download ticket for those who don't have a Blu-Ray player so far.
I'm not against digital download, but when it's X4 transfer, a disk is much more reliable and cohesive with a X4 support vs Covid-internet slow-bandwidth connection than a X4 HD streaming.

The Red Shoes could be jawdropping in X4. But you need to have a big screen or a video-projector.
I was not aware of a new X4 restoration. Is Scorsese behind this new restoration ?

too bad that Crash came out "too early" (Arrow released a Ultra-HD; Turbine in Germany too I think- For "Walkabout" X4 by S.Sight they did not have enough money to release a Ultra-HD if I remember their reply). Criterion could have released a Ultra-HD. That said, they can catch up the "train".
Same for "Roma". This one could have French subtitles like the BR. This is a totally different experience in Ultra-HD even if the Blu-Ray Criterion looks damned good, but downscaled to Blu-Ray resolution, that's just different.

mkozlows wrote: Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:31 amIn fact, I'd argue that the sharp decline of discery is going to speed up that transition: If you aren't a total stickler for picture/sound quality and just want to watch a movie in "good enough" quality, you can do that via streaming. The Criterion Channel is excellent! The people who still are buying discs are those who get frustrated by the infelicities of streaming quality, and those people are not super-interested in suboptimal compromise formats like legacy Blu-ray.

...Except Blu-ray provides an upgrade over streaming.

I prefer Blu-rays over streaming, but I don't plan to upgrade to 4K in the near future. (How much would it be to get a 4K player and TV that will last? $700? More?) I'm sure there are many others in the same boat as me.