John Ford

[HerrSchreck]

Because all I get from Shark Island is a somber recording of history.
But Shark Island bothers me because of all the historical facts that were modified to make a better story.

It's still merely a somber recording of history. But why does it bother you that Ford modified facts to make a better story? That's what movies do. If it's facts you want, read an encyclopedia.

Superatomic ditto, here. I'm always more taken aback when a film gets something totally accurate, or when a book is adapted intact. Going back to the silent era (and the hokum running beneath the family of, say, Nanook), "Faction" has long been the calling card of Hollywood.

[Ann Harding]

While technically the interview didn't deal directly with John Ford, Kevin Brownlow reveals an important fact regarding John Ford and his attitude towards DeMille at the Screen Directors Guild meeting in 1950 in my interview.

If you want more details click here for an English translation.

[Yojimbo]

You must not have grabbed Ford At Fox, because you're missing Pilgrimage, which easly can sit alongside Clementine & Wrath. And the notable absence of all silents, and light comedy-dramas like Judge Priest and Steamboat Round the Bend. What's most fascinating is watching Ford force himself to engage with scripts or casts he wasn't right crazy about, yet looked under the text and produced a very good film nonetheless.. here I'm thinking Four Men And A Prayer, Wee Willie Winkie. These are diametrical opposites of films like The World Movues On, Tobacco Road, etc, where he couldn't overcome his boredom or active distaste for the text/cast.

Schreck, now that I've received my three Ford at Fox mini box-sets I've finally caught up with 'Pilgrimage' and although I want to give it another look I can safely say that I will not be placing it in my top rank: the mix of tragedy and bawdy comedy did jar somewhat with me, even speaking as an Irishman accustomed to the wake tradition.
I may eventually elevate it to Level Two as I was distracted on a number of occasions while watching it.

I would certainly agree about 'Four Men And A Prayer', which was a most pleasant surprise: Quelle surprise! Ford matches Howard Hawks in the pacing stakes
(and I loved my first Rogers, "Judge Priest", although its not as good as its 'remake' "The Sun Shines Bright")
I think I saw "Wee Willie Winkie" during a tv Shirley Temple season way back when but I can't remember much about it.
And I intend to check out "Tobacco Road" which I suspect we may disagree on.

btw, have you seen "Born Reckless"?

[Yojimbo]

Pilgrimage is the most amazing film in Ford's oeuvre because it's the most unexpected. He made the best film ever about old women. Let me repeat: John Ford made the best film ever about old women when he was a young man.

You could be right: off the top of my head I can't think of a better one.
(although I haven't seen 'The Ballad of Narayama')
Funnily enough, the fashion-show sequence reminded me of Cukor's 'The Women'!!

[sidehacker]

It was on TCM France awhile back, apparently, and a copy of that broadcast (with French hardsubs) is available at many file-sharing sites. You might want to try an ed2k network.

On a completely different Ford note: I absolutely love Tobacco Road. It might actually be my favorite Ford film. Seriously.

[Yojimbo]

It was on TCM France awhile back, apparently, and a copy of that broadcast (with French hardsubs) is available at many file-sharing sites. You might want to try an ed2k network.

On a completely different Ford note: I absolutely love Tobacco Road. It might actually be my favorite Ford film. Seriously.

I got it recently, by way of a Gene Tierney box-set so hope to check it out soon

[domino harvey]

I got it recently, by way of a Gene Tierney box-set so hope to check it out soon

She's in it for like three minutes tops. Out of curiosity, what else is in the boxed set?

[zedz]

On a completely different Ford note: I absolutely love Tobacco Road. It might actually be my favorite Ford film. Seriously.

Hey, you can't just drop a bombshell like that and not elaborate!

[Yojimbo]

I got it recently, by way of a Gene Tierney box-set so hope to check it out soon

She's in it for like three minutes tops. Out of curiosity, what else is in the boxed set?

Gene Tierney Collection - Thunder Birds/Tobacco Road/Laura/Leave Her To Heaven/The Ghost And Mrs Muir
(I picked it up for about £12, new) from Play.com (UK)

I saw a still photo of her in TR: she looked really hot: I know she's always gorgeous anyway, but more 'foxy' that you come to associate with her.

[sidehacker]

I'll say beforehand that, yes, I know it is stupid. It's clearly a stereotypical and greatly exaggerated depiction of the deep south, but I just can't help but find it really moving. I'd say that the best stretch in Ford's career - artistically speaking - began sometime in the late 30s and concluded with My Darling Clementine. I like a lot of his movies from the 50s too, but I don't think anything quite lives up to that period in which he made The Grapes of Wrath, Tobacco Road, How Green Was My Valley, and My Darling Clementine. It probably helped that I watched these four in quick succession, but still the stand out will always be Tobacco Road.

First of all, the movie is funny at times. Some of the humor is likely to cause eyerolls (ex:" Why, Ada here never... never spoke a word to me for the first ten years we was married. Heh! Them was the happiest ten years of my life." ) but there's plenty of sharp stuff. I absolutely love the line "He made me mad!" that follows Jeeter's stoning of his son's new car. It's one of the few moments in which a character takes note of the absurdity of the situation. I'm not sure if that makes such a particular sequence brilliant, but I love such a thing. Equally impressive is how bizarre certain sequences play out. Gene Tierney's aforementioned three minute role, in which she seduces Ward Bond into giving her a turnip, is pretty amazing. Maybe I'm impressed by such shallow none sense? But I think that's the sort of thing that is funny, not the overused "redneck" jokes.

I don't think anyone will deny that the film looks pretty great, which, of course, also plays a large role in my appreciation. It was definitely photographed with the same mindset as How Green Was My Valley and The Grapes of Wrath. As I already stated, I love those films, but I do have some minor problems. The former is a tad bit too epic and tragic, the latter is a bit too much on the sappy side of things. Tobacco Road, though, has this bizarre type of sadness that feels even more legitimate because the context is so goofy. There's this great scenes towards the end in which Jeeter talks about his old flames, and for whatever reason, I've always found it to be one of the saddest sequences I've ever seen. I mean, sure there is lame redneck jokes here and there, but Ford somehow found a way to make a relatively plotless, moody masterpiece within the Hollywood system.

For whatever it is worth, my initial post-viewing thoughts are located here.

[Yojimbo]

I'll say beforehand that, yes, I know it is stupid. It's clearly a stereotypical and greatly exaggerated depiction of the deep south, but I just can't help but find it really moving. I'd say that the best stretch in Ford's career - artistically speaking - began sometime in the late 30s and concluded with My Darling Clementine. I like a lot of his movies from the 50s too, but I don't think anything quite lives up to that period in which he made The Grapes of Wrath, Tobacco Road, How Green Was My Valley, and My Darling Clementine. It probably helped that I watched these four in quick succession, but still the stand out will always be Tobacco Road.

For whatever it is worth, my initial post-viewing thoughts are located here.

Apart from the four you mentioned, and I haven't checked the sequence, but 'Stagecoach', 'They Were Expendable', 'The Sun Shines Bright', and 'The Long Voyage Home' deserve to be ranked among his very best.

Also 'Wagonmaster', which I think was made in 1950

[domino harvey]

Ah, so most of her films already out in R1 on Fox. I do love Gene Tierney but

I saw a still photo of her in TR: she looked really hot: I know she's always gorgeous anyway, but more 'foxy' that you come to associate with her.

Brother, you are in for the shock of your life. She spends all her screentime covered in dirt and acting like a feral Elly May Clampett

[Yojimbo]

Ah, so most of her films already out in R1 on Fox. I do love Gene Tierney but

I saw a still photo of her in TR: she looked really hot: I know she's always gorgeous anyway, but more 'foxy' that you come to associate with her.

Brother, you are in for the shock of your life. She spends all her screentime covered in dirt and acting like a feral Elly May Clampett

I can't wait!

[zedz]

Thanks sidehacker. My dislike of Tobacco Road is almost all down to content, and I agree that it looks like a real Ford classic - it clearly wasn't a case of him not being personally invested in a project, like some of the other misfires I could cite. And it's in the middle of that phenomenal run of features from Stagecoach to Clementine - don't forget Young Mr Lincoln in there as well (I'm not as enamoured of Drums Along the Mohawk but it's nevertheless pretty impressive) - so even if you consider it a failure, it seems really important to try and understand what Ford was doing with it.

[Napier]

Robert Osborne shared a nice little bit of trivia last night before the My Darling Clementine showing on TCM. Walter Brennan was having trouble mounting and riding his horse and just generally missing his marks. Ford shouted out "you can't even ride a horse?" Brennan yelled right back at him, "no, but I've got three Oscars' that say I can act!" Ford was infuriated! It was the first, and last time, the two ever worked together.

[Yojimbo]

Thanks sidehacker. My dislike of Tobacco Road is almost all down to content, and I agree that it looks like a real Ford classic - it clearly wasn't a case of him not being personally invested in a project, like some of the other misfires I could cite. And it's in the middle of that phenomenal run of features from Stagecoach to Clementine - don't forget Young Mr Lincoln in there as well (I'm not as enamoured of Drums Along the Mohawk but it's nevertheless pretty impressive) - so even if you consider it a failure, it seems really important to try and understand what Ford was doing with it.

I was put off by the early scenes in 'Tobacco Road', which I thought were a bit over the top, but my attention having reverted back to it for the last 20 minutes or so has convinced me that it merits a full concentrated viewing.
Drums Along the Mohawk leaves me cold.
As far as I'm concerned, with the exception of 1950's 'Wagonmaster' and 'The Quiet Man', Ford's Golden Era is mid 30s through late 40s

[Tommaso]

If you add "The sun shines bright" and "The Searchers" as further exceptions, I agree.

[sidehacker]

He did great stuff after the war, but you don't to make the statement conditional. Ford's golden era was from the mid 30s to the early 40s.

[aox]

Watched Tobacco Road (The Grapes of Wrath's inbred cousin) last night. I have no idea what to make of this film. It could be extremely funny and very touching at times (though, not many), but something about it didn't sit right. The first 20 minutes had me begging Ford to calm down... your making a movie, just take it easy. I guess my problem with the film might be the schizophrenia of it. It was so over-the-top, but touching, but intelligently funny and didn't know what to choose (are the Coens really the only director(s) that can pull this off?). Almost every sequence (DVD chapter) was from a whole different film.

[movielocke]

Does anyone know which pre 1930 films of John Ford's are not lost, and if any of those films have had vhs releases but not dvd?

and is Men Without Women lost?

[movielocke]

Men Without Women certainly exists, as a part talkie hybrid which somewhat annoyingly has the beginnings of dialogue and soudntrack, and then cuts to silence and title cards. There may be a full talkie (or full silent) version of it at GE House or MoMA. It used to screen on the old AMC series. It's a great Ford - begins with a huge travelling down an Oriental bar/brothel and then reverts for the remainder of the film to basically a single set of the sub, and Ford plays with it as a kammerspiel. It's incredible. There's probably more sweaty male flesh in it than all other Fords combined. Wayne has a tiny uncredited bit.

Considered lost but rumored to be found in Oz is Upstream (1927.) I can't credibly account for what else is missing. Another eaarly talkie unseens by me (and many others) the Black Watch (1929) is screening on Canal 3 Cinema de Minuit series on August 4.

Good to know. I found on the John Ford on DVD thread this post:

It looks like the only title that is available between Arrowsmith and Stagecoach is Prisoner of Shark Island, and there's nothing BEFORE Arrowsmith besides Iron Horse. Am I wrong? Are there R2-3-or-4 DVD's other than the BFI disc of The Iron Horse (I have this)?

Its rather depressing...here's hoping someone (Fox, MoC, Criterion?) could tackle the surviving silent Fords and put them together all nice and boxed-set-like.

There are bootlegs of a ton of these floating around. Off the top of my head, I know these are "out there": Straight Shooting, Bucking Broadway, The Shamrock Handicap, 3 Bad Men, The Blue Eagle, Four Sons, Hangman's House, Mother Machree, Lightning, and Riley the Cop. I have most of these, and many of them seem to be from TV broadcasts of restored prints; however, the DVDs themselves lock up A LOT, forcing me to skip chunks of the films.

ETA: found this post in the Ford at fox thread:

Again, there are many wonderful films in the set. For the most part, what I still desire to see more of are the silents. I only hope the set sold quickly enough that Fox will begin releasing at least a trickle of silent films on a consistent basis. They could do another silent Ford set with Cameo Kirby, Lightnin', Kentucky Pride, The Shamrock Handicap, The Blue Eagle, and Riley the Cop. Those all survived but may be in dire need of restoration for all I know.

Which suggests the following are amongst the "Not-lost" early ford films with no legit release
Straight Shooting,
Shamrock Handicap,
Blue Eagle,
Mother Machree,
Lightning,
Cameo Kirby,
Kentucky Pride
Riley the Cop

four disc, eight film eclipse set please.

ETA again,
UCLA has:
The Black Watch (1929)
The Village Blacksmith (1922)

[Yojimbo]

If you add "The sun shines bright" and "The Searchers" as further exceptions, I agree.

I've just never been fully convinced by "The Searchers" despite much greatness: definitely a case of the whole being less than the sum of the parts.
I think it might have heralded the start of Ford's revisionism, which, 'ipso facto' may have contributed to his decline.
(and I know 'Seven Women' is supposed to be the great unappreciated Ford Masterpiece, but those who claim so are welcome to it)

[Yojimbo]

Whenever someone says how much they dislike Seven Women I always feel like requoting Robin Wood's Marnie comment.

But I won't!

If its further consolation to you, david, I hate 'Marnie' too
(and I've tried it three times!)

[domino harvey]

Something like "If you don't like Marnie, not only do you not like Hitchcock, you don't like cinema"