criterionforum.org

Harvest wrote:Phoenix seems hopelessly miscast here. Why does he look so somnolent?

It’s unexpected how little charisma and energy he shows in the trailer. Napoleon looks like he doesn’t want to be there.

I can’t imagine that Ridley Scott can continue to get insured for 9-figure epics after this, can he? I’m really curious to know who his stand-by director was on this. Probably one of his sons, but who knows

Using a slowed-down toothless cover of Radiohead’s “The National Anthem” seems extremely funny to me for reasons I can’t quite articulate.

Mr Sausage wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:40 pm

Harvest wrote:Phoenix seems hopelessly miscast here. Why does he look so somnolent?

It’s unexpected how little charisma and energy he shows in the trailer. Napoleon looks like he doesn’t want to be there.

If I'm being honest, I think Inherent Vice was the last performance of his that I loved. Not even his work in You Were Never Really Here, which I know a lot of people like, did much for me. I don't know what it was but Irrational Man broke him in some way and his acting hasn't been the same. He's always employed the usual brooding notes (which makes him feel particularly out of his depth here) but beginning with that film he's now become a full on mope who appears to have been sapped of any and all charisma.

Exclusively in theaters "Turkey" day... The one thing it does for me is it makes me want to see the Gance Napoleon even more so

Harvest wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:14 pm

Mr Sausage wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:40 pm

Harvest wrote:Phoenix seems hopelessly miscast here. Why does he look so somnolent?

It’s unexpected how little charisma and energy he shows in the trailer. Napoleon looks like he doesn’t want to be there.

If I'm being honest, I think Inherent Vice was the last performance of his that I loved. Not even his work in You Were Never Really Here, which I know a lot of people like, did much for me. I don't know what it was but Irrational Man broke him in some way and his acting hasn't been the same. He's always employed the usual brooding notes (which makes him feel particularly out of his depth here) but beginning with that film he's now become a full on mope who appears to have been sapped of any and all charisma.

He's terrific in Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot and Beau is Afraid, but neither performances were necessarily as overtly impressive as they became once I mused on them. But I also love Irrational Man, and think his character is serving as a very complex vehicle for Woody Allen, so clearly we're not on the same beam here

Based on the trailer, I expect Vanessa Kirby will out-act Phoenix just as Vicky Krieps did with DDL in Phantom Thread. I can't wait for her career to take off further. However, while that was one of PTA's best efforts, this film looks as bad as I expected from Ridley Scott these days. I'm more surprised by anyone who has seen movies directed by Ridley Scott, watched the trailer and was surprised at how it came across.

He’s terrifically funny in Beau is Afraid. I really like his Joker performance, too. Not sure what to make of his choices in Napoleon, but maybe they’ll make more sense in context of the whole.

beamish14 wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:38 pm

Harvest wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 5:13 pm Phoenix seems hopelessly miscast here. Why does he look so somnolent?

At least he’s the only person without a British accent

LOL. This made me picture an alternate film where they obliviously talked like Maurice Chevalier à la Mel Brooks's History of the World, Part I.

therewillbeblus wrote: Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:31 pm He's terrific in Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot and Beau is Afraid, but neither performances were necessarily as overtly impressive as they became once I mused on them. But I also love Irrational Man, and think his character is serving as a very complex vehicle for Woody Allen, so clearly we're not on the same beam here

Based on the trailer, I expect Vanessa Kirby will out-act Phoenix just as Vicky Krieps did with DDL in Phantom Thread. I can't wait for her career to take off further. However, while that was one of PTA's best efforts, this film looks as bad as I expected from Ridley Scott these days. I'm more surprised by anyone who has seen movies directed by Ridley Scott, watched the trailer and was surprised at how it came across.

I don't think he captured John Callahan whatsoever in "Don't Worry" (and got outacted by Hill and Black to boot) and everything about the "Beau" performance/character is insufferable IMO and played to his worst instincts. Yes, we disagree about Irrational Man which I found wretched and thought few actors have felt more lost with Woody material than he did in that film.

Maybe my issues really started with I'm Still Here and those first wave of performances afterwards (The Master, Her, Inherent Vice) were a bit of a mirage? Maybe, unlike what most people including himself say, he was actually a better actor before that film sort of boxed him in these "unstable" roles. Remember how charming he was in Signs? Or felt like a real movie star in Walk the Line and We Own the Night? Those sides of him seem dead now. I wasn't looking forward to this film so much but was hoping we'd get something fresh and charismatic from him (but now I'm remembering his Jesus in Mary Magdalene was a dud as well) as these "unstable" roles have now become full on pathetic and incel-esque with Joker and "Beau". So this trailer is a real disappointment in that sense.

Perhaps another part of the problem is the directors he's working with, who are either not very good or don't know how to use him. It looks like he'll be working with Todd Haynes so hopefully Haynes can bring something exciting out of him again.

I don't know, maybe I'm just falling out of love with him as an actor which really sucks.

J Phoenix is a terrific actor. He was great in the underrated C'mon C'mon. This film looks quite spectacular in terms of the set pieces and cinematography. But I'd have preferred a film about one of the most famous French people to ever live........to be in French. I get it's not a French film, it's American but it always takes me out of the film, realism wise if the cast is speaking a language that isn't accurate. Probably just me and my tastes.

I’ll never understand that concept especially once you think of things historically. For example, the French of Napoleon’s time was dramatically different from today’s with Napoleon and later rulers instituting major changes in spoken and written French. That means any French actor today would not be speaking the correctly, at least in a way they are used to. Additionally as a Corsican Napoleon himself spoke French in a fairly unique way, which seems to be being conveyed by Phoenix being the primary American, which would be an additional burden to any French actor.

This is a film built primarily for an English speaking audience. Why necessitate an extra layer of separation from the film for them? Would you argue that dialogue in books shouldn’t be translated? Why this petty insistence on some false sense of realism from film?

Jerzy Kawalerowicz's Polish-language Quo Vadis (2001) is more linguistically purist than Mervyn LeRoy's 1951 version. Granted, the historical characters would have been speaking Latin, but both films had a common literary source in Henryk Sienkiewicz's 1896 novel, whose dialogue had to be translated from Polish into English for the earlier film.

Oh, and when Robert Eggers was asked if he'd ever thought about making The Northman in a combination of Old Norse and Old Slavic, his reply was (paraphrased), "well, yes, obviously, but I also knew that my chance of getting such a project funded on the budget that I needed was zero."

knives wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:03 am I’ll never understand that concept especially once you think of things historically. For example, the French of Napoleon’s time was dramatically different from today’s with Napoleon and later rulers instituting major changes in spoken and written French. That means any French actor today would not be speaking the correctly, at least in a way they are used to. Additionally as a Corsican Napoleon himself spoke French in a fairly unique way, which seems to be being conveyed by Phoenix being the primary American, which would be an additional burden to any French actor.

This is a film built primarily for an English speaking audience. Why necessitate an extra layer of separation from the film for them? Would you argue that dialogue in books shouldn’t be translated? Why this petty insistence on some false sense of realism from film?

It's not false sense of realism. Because I'll be sitting through the film thinking Napoleon didn't speak English in an American accent.

It's fine to disagree, and I'm in no doubt that I'll be in the minority on this opinion, as I explained in my post. But it is a real thing. I'm not just typing these words to be edgy or something. I felt the same way about the TV Show - Chernobyl. The range of differing accents speaking English completely spoilt it for me. I wish it didn't. But it did.

Half-formed trailer thoughts.

What's your name?
Napoleon...

Ridley Scott has directed movies... mostly Alien.

Rapidly cut action followed by brief slllooowww moottiooon shots.
Yes, I went to Egypt and bombarded the Great Pyramid. The sphinx was also pretty neat.

My name is Napoleon
Why can't I be emperor, too?
IT'S A TRAP!
Tune in Thanksgiving to see how it all turned out.

Spoiler

hint...it happened at Waterloo...or St. Helena...depends on how long the movie is

Aw, heck. I'll go and see it.

Soy Cuba wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:17 pmIt's not false sense of realism. Because I'll be sitting through the film thinking Napoleon didn't speak English in an American accent.

No, he'd have spoken French with a Corsican accent. But how many times has an actor attempted this?

(Not a loaded question; I genuinely don't know.)

I felt the same way about the TV Show - Chernobyl. The range of differing accents speaking English completely spoilt it for me. I wish it didn't. But it did.

It would have been infinitely more distracting if they'd attempted cod-Russian accents, and it's obviously not realistic to expect a big-budget American TV series to be entirely in foreign.

In fact, Armando Iannucci addressed this very issue over the near-contemporaneous The Death of Stalin, which is that Stalin's actual entourage would have featured loads of strong regional and indeed foreign accents - Stalin himself was Georgian - but only a native Russian speaker would be in a position to appreciate the nuances. Hence, to Iannucci, it made much more sense to have his actors perform in modern English and their own native accent - if I remember rightly, the only faked accent was Jason Isaacs' gloriously full-blown Yorkshire reimagining of Marshal Zhukov, because both he and Iannucci felt that the dialogue sounded much better in broad Yorkshire. (Mind you, would anyone outside the UK have picked up on why that was quite such an inspired choice?)

MichaelB wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:42 pm

Soy Cuba wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:17 pmIt's not false sense of realism. Because I'll be sitting through the film thinking Napoleon didn't speak English in an American accent.

No, he'd have spoken French with a Corsican accent. But how many times has an actor attempted this?

(Not a loaded question; I genuinely don't know.)

I felt the same way about the TV Show - Chernobyl. The range of differing accents speaking English completely spoilt it for me. I wish it didn't. But it did.

It would have been infinitely more distracting if they'd attempted cod-Russian accents, and it's obviously not realistic to expect a big-budget American TV series to be entirely in foreign.

In fact, Armando Iannucci addressed this very issue over the near-contemporaneous The Death of Stalin, which is that Stalin's actual entourage would have featured loads of strong regional and indeed foreign accents - Stalin himself was Georgian - but only a native Russian speaker would be in a position to appreciate the nuances. Hence, to Iannucci, it made much more sense to have his actors perform in modern English and their own native accent - if I remember rightly, the only faked accent was Jason Isaacs' gloriously full-blown Yorkshire reimagining of Marshal Zhukov, because both he and Iannucci felt that the dialogue sounded much better in broad Yorkshire. (Mind you, would anyone outside the UK have picked up on why that was quite such an inspired choice?)

Today's French is going to be a heck of alot more realistic than Joaquin Phoenix.

No, I wouldn't have expected a big budget American production to do anything different whatsoever in Chernobyl. I'm just of the opinion that I'd have preferred a smaller scale production with Ukranian actors. Just as I'd have not enjoyed the Bruno Ganz rant scene in Downfall as much, if it was Russell Crowe shouting in English. It's that extra level of authenticity that promotes an extra level of realism.

The accent debate is a bit different from the language a film is in. I've not seen the death of Stalin. But I'm from the UK and it really grates when accents don't get delivered. I saw the film 'Locke' - and Tom Hardy's 'Welsh' accent was so appalling I turned it off. I was laughing at bits I wasn't supposed to laugh at. I guess viewers in other parts of the world had no idea how bad his accent was so enjoyed the film. This must be reciprocated elsewhere for sure. I always wonder how plausible American actors sound when they do deep south USA accents yet they are not natives of the deep south.

Anyway Napoleon, I'm sure it will be fantastic.

Whenever actors are required do the accents of the foreign country where the movie or TV series tales place, I'm instantly reminded of the British sitcom 'Allo 'Allo! where this was the main joke. That said, the trailer makes it look like the movie is going to be rather camp and French accents might have been an asset in that regard.

Harvey Keitel's Noo Yawk Judas remains my favorite interpretation of the character, and a welcome relief from the British RP avenue so many others have traveled down. I wish Phoenix were doing something with that level of brio here for one of history's most charismatic, bold figures.

Soy Cuba wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:07 am I get it's not a French film, it's American but it always takes me out of the film, realism wise if the cast is speaking a language that isn't accurate. Probably just me and my tastes.

In theory what knives and Michael say makes sense to me, but my gut reaction watching the trailer is exactly yours - it just feels wrong and also "takes me out"! (so you don't feel alone!) But it might be JP's way of speaking rather than American English per se, and of course we're seeing a trailer not the full film context.

I mean, it’s a movie

Soy Cuba wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:13 pm

MichaelB wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:42 pm

Soy Cuba wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 12:17 pmIt's not false sense of realism. Because I'll be sitting through the film thinking Napoleon didn't speak English in an American accent.

No, he'd have spoken French with a Corsican accent. But how many times has an actor attempted this?

(Not a loaded question; I genuinely don't know.)

I felt the same way about the TV Show - Chernobyl. The range of differing accents speaking English completely spoilt it for me. I wish it didn't. But it did.

It would have been infinitely more distracting if they'd attempted cod-Russian accents, and it's obviously not realistic to expect a big-budget American TV series to be entirely in foreign.

In fact, Armando Iannucci addressed this very issue over the near-contemporaneous The Death of Stalin, which is that Stalin's actual entourage would have featured loads of strong regional and indeed foreign accents - Stalin himself was Georgian - but only a native Russian speaker would be in a position to appreciate the nuances. Hence, to Iannucci, it made much more sense to have his actors perform in modern English and their own native accent - if I remember rightly, the only faked accent was Jason Isaacs' gloriously full-blown Yorkshire reimagining of Marshal Zhukov, because both he and Iannucci felt that the dialogue sounded much better in broad Yorkshire. (Mind you, would anyone outside the UK have picked up on why that was quite such an inspired choice?)

Today's French is going to be a heck of alot more realistic than Joaquin Phoenix.

No, I wouldn't have expected a big budget American production to do anything different whatsoever in Chernobyl. I'm just of the opinion that I'd have preferred a smaller scale production with Ukranian actors. Just as I'd have not enjoyed the Bruno Ganz rant scene in Downfall as much, if it was Russell Crowe shouting in English. It's that extra level of authenticity that promotes an extra level of realism.

The accent debate is a bit different from the language a film is in. I've not seen the death of Stalin. But I'm from the UK and it really grates when accents don't get delivered. I saw the film 'Locke' - and Tom Hardy's 'Welsh' accent was so appalling I turned it off. I was laughing at bits I wasn't supposed to laugh at. I guess viewers in other parts of the world had no idea how bad his accent was so enjoyed the film. This must be reciprocated elsewhere for sure. I always wonder how plausible American actors sound when they do deep south USA accents yet they are not natives of the deep south.

Anyway Napoleon, I'm sure it will be fantastic.

What makes you think the film is even aiming for that type of realism? Even further on that thought what makes an actor speaking modern French in a Parisian accent more realistic in an absolute sense? For example, would a group of Moskovites speaking uniform Russian be more realistic than the collection of accents spoken in English in Death of Stalin. Australian Crowe might actually make a more realistic Hitler than Ganz who sounds nothing like the historical figure in a certain production.

All this is to say that your argument of realism doesn’t make sense historically and isn’t really even a measurable concept.

soundchaser wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:48 pm Harvey Keitel's Noo Yawk Judas remains my favorite interpretation of the character, and a welcome relief from the British RP avenue so many others have traveled down. I wish Phoenix were doing something with that level of brio here for one of history's most charismatic, bold figures.

I thought it was an inspired decision in that movie to have the Jews speak with American accents and the Romans British accents. It effectively conveyed a class distinction that's harder to do with American accents alone--certainly much harder than if the whole thing had been a British production.

The only person who's been able to get away with scrupulous linguistic accuracy on a large budget is Mel Gibson, tho' presumably the subject matter of the first papered over the risk, and its blockbuster status helped fund the second. I'd like to see more movies take that kind of risk and reproduce the linguistic context of its region and era. But I'm not some weird purist, either, and I appreciate the routes taken by Gorky Park, The Last Temptation of Christ, and The Death of Stalin.

Basically I don't want to be so unimaginative as to confuse what's literal for what's true.

I have to say it was odd being on the other side of this language issue recently when watching Youssef Chahine's Saladin. There all of the western characters, including both the Kings of England and France, all speak Arabic (and look Arabic too given that they're just Egyptian actors with blonde/red haired wigs). It certainly threw me for a loop for a minute but I guess that's how all non-English speaking audiences feel when watching most Hollywood productions.

Mr Sausage wrote: Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:38 pm Basically I don't want to be so unimaginative as to confuse what's literal for what's true.

Kudos for being the first person in this thread to both understand AND enunciate the aesthetic concept of "suspension of disbelief". (Which I learned during the first class of Film 101. So kudos to my instructor also?)