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I'm also rather perturbed at Mark Harris's cheap, factually incorrect, "both-sides" comment in his lede that it depends on your point of view whether Mank co-wrote or just flat-out wrote Citizen Kane.

TheKieslowskiHaze wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:15 am

Nasir007 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:38 am Early word promises an all-timer instant classic.

I'd bet that Joey Magidson tweet is about Borat and not Mank. A few days after that tweet, he wrote a glowing review of the former.

Could someone really say this about Borat 2? - "I just watched a movie I'll never forget. Not just one of 2020's best, but an instant classic." Seems a bit unnatural to me.

I could and basically just did.

He only gave it a 3-star review though. You'd also think an ardent fan would bother to get the lead actress's name right

Is this something one would need to watch Citizen Kane to fully more appreciate?

Because, um...I haven't

flyonthewall2983 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:42 pm Is this something one would need to watch Citizen Kane to fully more appreciate?

Because, um...I haven't

It obviously wouldn't hurt to watch Citizen Kane first, a movie that struggles under the weight of its reputation a bit, but is truly enjoyable and great.

flyonthewall2983 wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:42 pm Is this something one would need to watch Citizen Kane to fully more appreciate?

Because, um...I haven't

Everyone has their big obvious cultural milestones that they still haven't seen, but if you are excited for Fincher's film, I can't imagine not wanting to give yourself the best opportunity to enjoy it by seeing Citizen Kane first

Joseph McBride has now seen the film.

Spoiler

For now, he's only posted about the "lying finale" with subtitled screenshots - basically it looks like the film is saying Welles had no involvement in the screenplay.

Oof. Reviews for this are softer than what I might have anticipated. Eric Kohn says his best movie since Social Network. That part was kinda obvious, right? I mean after Social Network, he made some airport novel trash - twice. I am currently debating whether I should make a trip to the movie theaters or use my 4k screen at home. Have only been once in the past 8 months - for Tenet.

I think Gone Girl is far, far above 'airport novel trash' and certainly one of Fincher's best films, one that expertly toys with the audience. I was riveted by it in the cinema and shows that the crime film is really Fincher's milieu.

Don't bother addressing Nasir, he doesn't talk to clouds on a sunny day

Altair wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:42 pm I think Gone Girl is far, far above 'airport novel trash' and certainly one of Fincher's best films, one that expertly toys with the audience. I was riveted by it in the cinema and shows that the crime film is really Fincher's milieu.

It is "well made" in the conventional handsome Hollywood prestige film way, but I felt I got nothing out of it. It had its twists and turns, but no real takeaway for me because I found the story so awfully contrived. It maintained some interest in a 'what will happen next' way but nothing more than that. I wish Fincher would do something like Zodiac which to me remains his magnum opus.

I'm impressed by Nasir's commitment to keep posting on here even though he seems to draw the ire of a lot of people.

This detail from The Film Stage's review is as sad as it is hilarious:

Nick Newman wrote:[Welles] appears with Mankiewicz’s (and Mankiewicz’s alone) script, trembling in anger at his partner’s demand for full credit. A physical outburst ensues, “inspires” Kane’s climax, and recalls Walk Hard.

It also makes the film sound more like a conventional biopic than I would've guessed.

yoloswegmaster wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:12 pm I'm impressed by Nasir's commitment to keep posting on here even though he seems to draw the ire of a lot of people.

Ha! It ain't commitment but if you are going to use any online platform these days and if you can't ignore attacks from strangers, then the internet isn't really for you right.

For the millionth time, people who disagree with you are not attacking you. This is a discussion forum, not a blog. You don't get to drop the truth and then peace out. The above is, to my knowledge, the first instance in some time of you actually engaging in what someone else has to say about your posts. That's a good first step. But recognize the real issue here.

Nasir007 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:50 pm

Altair wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:42 pm I think Gone Girl is far, far above 'airport novel trash' and certainly one of Fincher's best films, one that expertly toys with the audience. I was riveted by it in the cinema and shows that the crime film is really Fincher's milieu.

It is "well made" in the conventional handsome Hollywood prestige film way, but I felt I got nothing out of it. It had its twists and turns, but no real takeaway for me because I found the story so awfully contrived. It maintained some interest in a 'what will happen next' way but nothing more than that. I wish Fincher would do something like Zodiac which to me remains his magnum opus.

I actually thought it was slightly ahead of its time in its satirizing of how the media eats up female victimhood narratives. Had it come out circa 2018, it would have earned a Joker-esque ire and slander campaign, I think.

ford wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:40 pm

Nasir007 wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:50 pm

Altair wrote: Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:42 pm I think Gone Girl is far, far above 'airport novel trash' and certainly one of Fincher's best films, one that expertly toys with the audience. I was riveted by it in the cinema and shows that the crime film is really Fincher's milieu.

It is "well made" in the conventional handsome Hollywood prestige film way, but I felt I got nothing out of it. It had its twists and turns, but no real takeaway for me because I found the story so awfully contrived. It maintained some interest in a 'what will happen next' way but nothing more than that. I wish Fincher would do something like Zodiac which to me remains his magnum opus.

I actually thought it was slightly ahead of its time in its satirizing of how the media eats up female victimhood narratives. Had it come out circa 2018, it would have earned a Joker-esque ire and slander campaign, I think.

I don't think it does anything quite as subversive though - despite Pike's expert performance, Amy to me seemed a very unnatural person - one of those people you find in novels where the plot and twists are constructed first and then some motivations are invented for the characters to try to make everything line up. But maybe that's how I am supposed to feel about a psychopath - that I can't quite comprehend the point.

If only we had a thread in which one could discuss Gone Girl

According to Wellesnet, Mank perpetuates Kael's Raising Kane and chooses to ignore evidence of Welles’ contributions to the script

Saw Mank last night ...

First things first, yes Mank is definitely from the perspective that Citizen Kane was written entirely by Mankiewicz. Welles is actually barely a character in the film, really only having one significant scene, near the end when Mank decides he wants to renegotiate his contract that stated Mank wouldn’t be credited for the script. Earlier in the pandemic, I rewatched Citizen Kane and all of the bonus features on the Warner set, including RKO 281. Mank and RKO 281 might as well be talking about two completely different sets of people.

As for judging Mank the film on its own merits, I definitely need to give it another watch two weeks from now when it hits Netflix. On the whole, I enjoyed watching the film, but it always felt a little off. One aspect is the look of the film. I tried to describe it to my wife as being blurry but not blurry, and that I felt I couldn’t make out the images even though I could. I can’t explain it better than that. The darker night and interior scenes are very dim and unfocused, and the daylight scenes are blown out. I also notice that Fincher added reel changes markers to the film, just for the look of it I assume (I didn’t notice any single frames of porn though, haha). But if I went into the film without knowing anything, I definitely wouldn’t have guessed Fincher directed it. I didn’t feel like it was anything like his other films.

The dialogue is snappy and witty, and Oldman takes every advantage. It’s definitely role of a lifetime material for him, much more so than Churchill. Amanda Seyfried gives Marion Davies far more depth than I’ve ever seen attributed to her. In fact, I’d argue that the heart of the film is the platonic relationship between Mank and Davies, though the problem there is that what I felt was the climactic scene together comes too far from the end. On that note, overall I felt the flow of the film was off; not the pace necessarily, but the flow.

Last thing I’ll note, I can’t imagine not being confused by this film if you don’t know Citizen Kane and the backstory behind it. Mank is definitely not a Wikipedia synopsis of that production, and in fact doesn’t show the production at all. It’s really just a portrait of Mank over the course of a decade (1930-1940) and why he decided to write “American” ... if, in fact, he did.

P.S. I’m a little hesitant to write this because it’s not meant to be provacative or a hot take, but ... am I the only person who doesn’t care in the least who wrote Citizen Kane. Mank, Welles, both? Who gives a shit? It doesn’t change the film for me, an all-time classic. I guess it makes for great debate though.

willoneill wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:05 pm P.S. I’m a little hesitant to write this because it’s not meant to be provacative or a hot take, but ... am I the only person who doesn’t care in the least who wrote Citizen Kane. Mank, Welles, both? Who gives a shit? It doesn’t change the film for me, an all-time classic. I guess it makes for great debate though.

I agree that the quality of Mank and Kane have nothing to do with the actual answer to the debate, but the reason why it bothers me is because this isn't a hypothetical situation. The authorship history of Kane is incredibly lucid and there is literally zero debate to be had over it, as scholars such as Robert Carringer have shown.

Dylan wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:17 am According to Wellesnet, Mank perpetuates Kael's Raising Kane and chooses to ignore evidence of Welles’ contributions to the script

Looks like there was even a lot of change between the "supposedly final" draft and what was actually shot as well. Including, and I've only skimmed the changes, the wonderful sequence where Thatcher receives the "I think it would be fun to run a newspaper" letter, "always gagged on the silver spoon", and the iconic "There is a man" music number.