World of Wong Kar Wai

[hadyn]

Watched the remastered 2046 via https://virtual.filmlinc.org/film/2046/ last night. Didn’t notice any differences. Can’t wait to finally have it on Blu Ray.

[cowboydan]

just a thing about "Chungking Express" : the restoration trailer is not an excerpt of the movie, but a trailer, and sometimes with Wong Kar Wai, trailers could content some different cuts or angles, even some outtakes unused (2046 trailer on the TF1/Ocean DVD is one of the best example : the movie looks like it was more focus on the tunnel, a kind of "Zone" temporal, suspended time like in "Stalker" for lovers...)

There are any number of pre-release trailers (not exclusively for WKW films) that use alternate takes or even scenes and shots completely missing from the finished film; I can't think of another example where a re-release trailer does that.

The re-release trailer is identical to the original trailer except for the title cards. Here's the same alternate take in both:

I don't think I got an exact frame match for this one because of the borked gamma on the original trailer that obliterates much of the detail, but they're clearly the same take:

So it looks to me like Jet Tone not only restored the films but also the trailers, including whatever alternate takes were used therein. That doesn't necessarily mean those alternate takes have been edited into the actual movies, though.

Yeah, you were right. I checked the Chungking Express restoration on the Lincoln Center screening. The toy airplane landing take used in the actual restored film is the same as the one from the old Criterion release. So that is a good thing that they didn't change it. Interesting that they took time to restore the trailer footage / alternate takes. Now that I see what they were doing, I'm all for that aspect. Sorry for misleading people into thinking that the scene was changed in the film.

On the other hand, I found a different major change. A new music cue!!!!!!

In the scene at around the 56 minute mark, Faye's character is telling Tony's character that his lover (Valerie Chow) left a letter for him. Tony doesn't take the letter. Then there is a "step printed" shot of Tony drinking coffee and Faye gazing at him. Tony is thinking about his lover who had just left him. Tony then takes a leave of absence from work. He then narrates "Ever since she left, everything in the apartment is sad". We then get scenes of Tony being sad and lonely, talking to inanimate objects in his apartment.

In the original version, there is no music during this section. When Tony drinks the coffee, we hear the sound of an airplane. This clearly is meant to bring our focus to how Tony's character is feeling about his lover leaving him. Especially since we immediately get the scene of him being lonely and saying "Ever since she left, everything in the apartment is sad". The main focus of the scene is Tony's perspective. Faye is merely in the background, admiring him from a distance, and gradually gaining a fondness for him.

In the restored version, as soon as Tony rejects the letter and starts drinking the coffee, the song "Dream Person" aka "Dreams" sung by Faye Wong starts playing. This drastically changes the feeling of the scene and more importantly the meaning/focus of it. This clearly is an attempt to make the song a motif (since we will later hear it again in the montage of Faye cleaning Tony's apartment). And now instead of the airplane sound (representing Valerie Chow), we hear "Dream Person" representing Faye and Tony's connection. So Wong is forcing us to switch to focusing on Faye's perspective and her feelings about Tony. I think this comes off as too heavy handed. The song doesn't fit well here. It's quite jarring tbh. It's not subtle at all. It also lasts too long. It keeps playing all the way up the point that Tony states "Ever since she left, everything in the apartment is sad" in reference to Valerie Chow. The flow is completely different and doesn't work as well as the original, music-less one.

For reference, here is the scene I'm talking about. (screencaps taken from the old release, NOT the 4K resto)

The music is heard during all of these shots, and finally fades out during the last shot.

Spoiler

Also, I couldn't find the shorter HK cut anywhere unfortunately. I thought I found it but it was just a PAL speed up version.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

In the restored version, as soon as Tony rejects the letter and starts drinking the coffee, the song "Dream Person" aka "Dreams" sung by Faye Wong starts playing. This drastically changes the feeling of the scene and more importantly the meaning/focus of it. This clearly is an attempt to make the song a motif (since we will later hear it again in the montage of Faye cleaning Tony's apartment). And now instead of the airplane sound (representing Valerie Chow), we hear "Dream Person" representing Faye and Tony's connection. So Wong is forcing us to switch to focusing on Faye's perspective and her feelings about Tony. I think this comes off as too heavy handed. The song doesn't fit well here. It's quite jarring tbh. It's not subtle at all. It also lasts too long. It keeps playing all the way up the point that Tony states "Ever since she left, everything in the apartment is sad" in reference to Valerie Chow. The flow is completely different and doesn't work as well as the original, music-less one.

This is actually how the sequence plays out in the Hong Kong version. Since I'm assuming the restoration retains the kidnapping subplot that was removed from the HK cut (supposedly because of exhibitor pressure to keep it under 100 minutes), it sounds like we now have some sort of hybrid of the two previous versions. A detailed comparison of the HK and international cuts is available here; most of the other differences are minor things like a stray extra/missing shot, but there are also some short scenes with the cops exclusive to one version or the other.

[depp91]

This is actually how the sequence plays out in the Hong Kong version. Since I'm assuming the restoration retains the kidnapping subplot that was removed from the HK cut (supposedly because of exhibitor pressure to keep it under 100 minutes), it sounds like we now have some sort of hybrid of the two previous versions. A detailed comparison of the HK and international cuts is available here; most of the other differences are minor things like a stray extra/missing shot, but there are also some short scenes with the cops exclusive to one version or the other.

Thanks for linking the comparison I created a little more than three years ago. It's a shame tinypic.com is dead by now - luckily there's the web archive!
It's interesting to read that the new restoriation resembles the HK cut in this particular scene. Would have been great to have the actual HK cut included as an extra. Plus I will always miss the original mono mix, so far it's the only one that has California Dreamin' blastin' loudly through the speakers, the 'old' (mid 2000s) 5.1 mix is rather muted and echoey in that regard. It'll be interesting to see how this new 5.1 mix sounds.

By the way I also once made a comparison between the Japanese Cut and the International Cut of Happy Together: http://wong-kar-wais-love-odysseys.blog ... on-vs.html
Unfortunately, the web archive hasn't saved a copy of this one.

By the way, does anyone know in what regard the HK version of Fallen Angels differs from the international one? Have never been able to find out anything about it.

[cowboydan]

This is actually how the sequence plays out in the Hong Kong version. Since I'm assuming the restoration retains the kidnapping subplot that was removed from the HK cut (supposedly because of exhibitor pressure to keep it under 100 minutes), it sounds like we now have some sort of hybrid of the two previous versions. A detailed comparison of the HK and international cuts is available here; most of the other differences are minor things like a stray extra/missing shot, but there are also some short scenes with the cops exclusive to one version or the other.

Thank you!! Yes, it seems to be a hybrid then because I checked and the restoration does keep in the kidnapping / ice cream section.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

By the way I also once made a comparison between the Japanese Cut and the International Cut of Happy Together: http://wong-kar-wais-love-odysseys.blog ... on-vs.html
Unfortunately, the web archive hasn't saved a copy of this one.

Thank you for the great work on that site! Tons of valuable info there, and even without the frame grabs the Happy Together comparison is invaluable, since the variant versions of that film are much more obscure than those of Chungking Express. (I vividly remember Grady Hendrix complaining somewhere about the absence of "Dreams" from the international version of the scene under discussion—as I recall, his argument was that the version without the music came off as pretentious and an attempt to distance the film from its "pop" roots. I personally find the international version more affecting for the contrast it creates with the rest of the film's busy, music-filled soundscape.)

By the way, does anyone know in what regard the HK version of Fallen Angels differs from the international one? Have never been able to find out anything about it.

I wish I could be of more help here, but based on the running times of the various versions compared at DVD Beaver, I suspect that the first four versions covered—the Daum, Áccent, Ocean Shores, and original Kino DVDs—use a different cut, possibly the original HK version. Those editions all run about two minutes shorter than subsequent releases and that seems far too long to be attributed to, say, different logos. Unfortunately none of those versions are easy to come by now—there are sellers on eBay with the original Kino release, but they're all asking rather exorbitant prices except for one seller based out of Thailand with three copies for sale, which I'm betting are bootlegs. I actually own the Áccent version, but I'm not sure I could find it anymore in my tragically disorganized collection. If I do, I'll see if I can work out the differences.

[Rupert Pupkin]

well, for trailer when you restore a trailer you have to start from scratch, since the trailer itself is certainly in bad condition and you use the original trailer has a "guide-line" and you restart the editing of the trailer using the restoration of the movie.
What is intriguing with "Chungking Express" trailer is that they took some alternate edits/angles for the trailer; which would imply that they have also restored more film stock (including outtakes) that the original footage of "Chungking Express". Does that imply that perhaps we can have some restored outtakes of "Chunking Express" ? Generally this doesn't happen because it's already so expensive to restore a movie.
Perhaps at one point WKW was thinking to re-edit slightly Chungking Express ? (if they had done a restoration of the outtakes of "Happy Together" that would be fantastic! (the outtakes of "Happy Together" were fascinating and were on the DVD US box set)

as long as they keep "California Dreamin'" - although I love Bobby Womack's version (which is used on "Fish Tank" by Andrea Arnold), the Mamas and the Papas California Dreamin' works so well in Chungking Express.
I sincerely hope that since Gail Zappa is dead, they won't be (c) issue with using this particular edit (which apparently WKW did specially for this movie) of "Chunga's Revenge" turning this song into a jazz song (removing the electric guitar intro) and keeping just the saxophone wah-wah.

[R0lf]

I don’t recall any blu ray with trailers reconstructed using the movie restoration. Normally they are just a scan of a 35mm print if we’re lucky or a cruddy digital file if we’re not.

[depp91]

By the way, does anyone know in what regard the HK version of Fallen Angels differs from the international one? Have never been able to find out anything about it.

I wish I could be of more help here, but based on the running times of the various versions compared at DVD Beaver, I suspect that the first four versions covered—the Daum, Áccent, Ocean Shores, and original Kino DVDs—use a different cut, possibly the original HK version. Those editions all run about two minutes shorter than subsequent releases and that seems far too long to be attributed to, say, different logos. Unfortunately none of those versions are easy to come by now—there are sellers on eBay with the original Kino release, but they're all asking rather exorbitant prices except for one seller based out of Thailand with three copies for sale, which I'm betting are bootlegs. I actually own the Áccent version, but I'm not sure I could find it anymore in my tragically disorganized collection. If I do, I'll see if I can work out the differences.

I also have the Accent DVD somewhere (as well as the German Kinowelt one which features the same transfer). I think because both are in 25fps, the difference in length can be attributed to the PAL speedup. I don't own the Daum, Ocean Shores and original Kino DVD either, unfortunately. Maybe someone else knows more about this.
The version on the Accent DVD is how I got to know the movie, btw. When the HD restorations were released in the mid-2000s (first on DVD, then on Bluray) it was so obvious that the music cue for one of the killing sequences had been changed. Sounded like a re-recording of the same song. I've since gotten used to it but I'll always prefer the original cue.

For the first time in a few years, I've popped in my Japanese bluray of Happy Together (by a label called Prénom). Interestingly, they list the common mid-2000s HD restoration under special features, if you just click "Play Movie" it's the "unrestored" Japanese cut that plays. Looking at the cover shot of this new 4K restoration of Happy Together, it ocurred to me that the football scenes have been yellow since the mid-2000s HD restoration, they used to be in blue light before. Take a look:

2004 US Kino DVD (same transfer as on the 2006 10th Anniversary HK DVD):


201X Japanese Prénom Bluray, Japanese Cut (to my knowledge, this isn't available anywhere else):


201X Japanese Prénom Bluray, HD restoration (same version as the 2010 Kino Bluray):

[Ivy Mike]

Doesn't the Accent DVD of Fallen Angels only include Mandarin for the VO parts (at least for Kaneshiro's lines?), whereas the rest of the movie is the original Cantonese? I saw that note on the Beaver page.

Great to have more comparison info (and depp's comparison site is indeed great).

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

I also have the Accent DVD somewhere (as well as the German Kinowelt one which features the same transfer). I think because both are in 25fps, the difference in length can be attributed to the PAL speedup.

The runtime given by DVD Beaver (1:32:18) comes out to almost exactly 1:36:00 if you adjust for PAL speedup. That's close to other early editions (the Daum and original Kino release run about 1:36:05) but is nearly three minutes shorter than later editions like the Kino and Artificial Eye Blu-rays. The screencaps on DVD Beaver strongly suggest that Áccent used the same master as the original Kino release, so if you have one already there's probably no need to seek out the other.

201X Japanese Prénom Bluray, Japanese Cut (to my knowledge, this isn't available anywhere else):

What's the running time of this version? I ask because based on the running times at DVD Beaver, the Mei Ah and original Kino DVD run noticeably longer than later editions. I'm wondering if the Japanese theatrical cut might be the same version.

Doesn't the Accent DVD of Fallen Angels only include Mandarin for the VO parts (at least for Kaneshiro's lines?), whereas the rest of the movie is the original Cantonese? I saw that note on the Beaver page.

Kaneshiro's VO is supposed to be in Mandarin, that's his character's native language. (His VO in Chungking Express is also in Mandarin.) Maybe an all-Cantonese track was done for the original Hong Kong release but I've never seen one myself.

[Ivy Mike]

Thanks for that - I knew someone more informed than I would have the answer - makes sense!

[depp91]

I also have the Accent DVD somewhere (as well as the German Kinowelt one which features the same transfer). I think because both are in 25fps, the difference in length can be attributed to the PAL speedup.

The runtime given by DVD Beaver (1:32:18) comes out to almost exactly 1:36:00 if you adjust for PAL speedup. That's close to other early editions (the Daum and original Kino release run about 1:36:05) but is nearly three minutes shorter than later editions like the Kino and Artificial Eye Blu-rays. The screencaps on DVD Beaver strongly suggest that Áccent used the same master as the original Kino release, so if you have one already there's probably no need to seek out the other.

Thanks a lot! So it might be fruitful to compare the Accent DVD or any of these older DVDs to the common HD restoration. Some of the length differences may also be due to the new end credits in the HD restoration, but I haven't compared them side by side, so this is just speculation on my part.

201X Japanese Prénom Bluray, Japanese Cut (to my knowledge, this isn't available anywhere else):

What's the running time of this version? I ask because based on the running times at DVD Beaver, the Mei Ah and original Kino DVD run noticeably longer than later editions. I'm wondering if the Japanese theatrical cut might be the same version.

The running time of the Japanese cut is 1:38:08 (the common HD restoration runs 1:35:56 on both the Kino Bluray as well as the Japanese one). The Japanese cut also has a few seconds of additional Japanese title cards in the very beginning. So it might very well be possible that some of the early DVDs feature this cut. I don't have any of them I'm afraid - except for an old German one which seems to be sourced from a German theatrical print - it's identical to the International Cut.

[cowboydan]

Does anyone know if there would be a reason that the Lincoln Center's streamed videos would play slightly faster than the native source file? Because I just watched Chungking side by side (on the same computer) with the original, and i kept having to readjust when the restored version would gradually get ahead out of sync. This also resulted in all of the audio being slightly raised in pitch about a quarter of a step (half of one pitch/note). I'm really hoping it's only the stream and will be normal on the disc.

[tenia]

In the US, it could be a 24 vs 23.976 fps difference, but it certainly wouldn't create a non-negligible difference on the sound.

[Adam X]

I’m not sure it makes much difference to a version comparison, but the Accent release was their restoration (I don’t remember if this was based on their own scan though). There was a write-up on the work done posted back before it’s release, but the disc itself only has a comparison featurette.

EDIT: david hare’s old post here mentions that the Accent release was supervised by Christopher Doyle, which I’d totally forgotten about.

[cowboydan]

Chungking Express: Restoration Comparison

1. The stream on the Lincoln Center site is presented in a way that is slightly sped up, similar to PAL speed up. Hopefully this only affects the stream and that the disc presentation will not be affected.

2. The "Chungking Express" title card

On the old versions, the title card appears silently and with the whole graphic at once. On the new restoration, each individual Chinese character (4 total) appears one by one, with each one accompanied by the sound of a gunshot. Definitely trying to highlight the action side of the film.

3. The scene of Takeshi Kaneshiro's character running in the rain at the baseball field. On the old Criterion BD, the scene ends with a fade to black. On the new restoration ends with a freeze frame on Takeshi and then cuts away.

4. I already covered this here https://www.criterionforum.org/forum/vi ... 00#p718500, but in the scene after Tony rejecting the letter from his lover (Valerie Chow) that Faye tries to give him: the old Criterion BD doesn't contain music on this part. Only the sound of an airplane, and then diegetic sounds. On the new 4K restoration (and the 98 min HK cut) the song "Dream Person" aka "Dreams" sung by Faye Wong plays during this scene.

5. Finally, the image quality. The restoration bright the black levels down (darker). In some scenes, it's too dark. But in a lot of scenes, it looks more realistic / life-like than the original. I don't know which look is "correct" or more similar to a 35mm print. The tint is also different, but I think it is not bad in the way that In the Mood For Love seems to be. It is much more subtle than that. More importantly, the skin tones are more accurate and clothing/bedding/walls are more saturated than before. In a few shots, mainly in the Midnight Express, the old BD had increased contrast that lessened detail, though it of course gave it a certain gritty expressionist look. The restoration doesn't have this contrasted look, and instead retains a more realistic appearance.

The original image also contains some visible flickering (imperfections between film frames). The restoration removes the flickering entirely, from what I can tell.

It might be up to personal preference. Some may prefer the older version with slightly muted colors, raised blacks, cooler colored, more gritty, somewhat washed out look. It gives the film a bit more of a dreamy quality. Others may prefer restoration for the cleaner, more bolder colored, proper black leveled, more realistic image.

Overall: I think this restoration may actually be a success, assuming the PAL speed up thing is not present on the disc, otherwise that would be a total blunder.

The colors are arguably better. Black levels arguably better. Flickering removed. No major cut differences. The only music cue difference is one that has valid historic precedent (reverting back to the HK theatrical cut). Although, personally I prefer the scene without the song. As long as the future BD disc has good compression and retains healthy amounts of grain, then I think it will be a relatively good presentation of the film. More to defend here than the presentation of Fallen Angels (RIP).

I think there is still room to debate over which look is more "accurate" to original look of the film or which look fits the film better. I think there is room for difference in opinion.

Disclaimer: These screenshots are only meant for comparing colors. Do not use them to compare resolution detail or to compare framing (an outer edge of the frame is slightly cropped due to my setup). Also, the frames may or may not be exact matches because of my timing.

Left is 2008 Criterion BD vs. Right is 2020 4K restoration stream















































P.S. Sorry for not including any screenshots of the first story with the blonde and Takeshi Kaneshiro. I wasn't even planning on doing screenshots for this. Then when the second story started, I suddenly felt the urge to take screenshots.

[black&huge]

On the new restoration, each individual Chinese character (4 total) appears one by one, with each one accompanied by the sound of a gunshot. Definitely trying to highlight the action side of the film.

... seriously?

I've always liked the washed out look so I may just hunt down the original crit blu and just put this entire set on the backburner

[cowboydan]

On the new restoration, each individual Chinese character (4 total) appears one by one, with each one accompanied by the sound of a gunshot. Definitely trying to highlight the action side of the film.

... seriously?

I've always liked the washed out look so I may just hunt down the original crit blu and just put this entire set on the backburner

Yep. I was caught off guard by the gunshot sounds. It's totally unnecessary. It's something I'd expect from a CAT III film.

Honestly, I really do prefer the older look too. But I can understand if there are people that don't mind the new look, or even prefer it.

[feihong]

I think the original color timing is probably more accurate. The Midnight Express and the convenience store are both meant to be lit with fluorescent lighting, which at that time created an exclusively greenish-bluish hue.

If you look down at the 6th row of your comparison (thank you again, cowboydan, you are doing a hero's work here), you see the fluorescent bulb in the Midnight Express display case. The original version presents this as a light source is commonly shown on-screen, blown out as white as the highlights can get. In the restoration, that same light is much darker, a pale blue––too dark, to my eyes. You see the same effect in the shots you have of Valerie Chow in the convenience store––the fluorescents in the refrigerator case peak on the original transfer, and on the restoration they look pale yellow, heading towards red. In both cases the restoration looks off to me. And the generally boosted contrast seems very artificial. In the case of this shot, if one were to put the camera next to a fluorescent bulb, as Doyle has done here, the light leak from the bulb would most likely look as it does in the original version, lightly hazing and blowing out the whole shot. In the restoration, that haze is completely removed.

These caps come from the section of the movie shot by Chris Doyle. When you look at other Chris Doyle movies from the era, it's common to see low-contrast photography and a lean towards a blue bias in the color timing. This is largely present in movies he shot in this era, from Days of Being Wild and Ashes of Time to Peony Pavilion, Red Rose White Rose, to Temptress Moon and Tri-Star. My feeling is that the flesh tones seeming more full-bodied is a result of the altered contrast and color timing, but not, I think, an intended look for the film in the time it was made. And I agree with cowboydan and black&huge that the original look of the film is more dreamy and romantic. The new version looks pretty sweaty and gritty. I think only the Andrew Lau–lensed section of the film is meant to look that gritty.

And the gunshots on the title cards? Wow, that sucks. It sounds almost criminally misleading about the nature of the film you're about to see.

[The Elegant Dandy Fop]

Did any of the other Lincoln Center streams feature weird speed up? Strikes me as super unusual considering uploading a digital file onto a website shouldn't effect speed.

Also agree that the gunshots sounds pretty stupid. Reminds me of the 4K restoration of Sorcerer which features an added gunshot at the end.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

Did any of the other Lincoln Center streams feature weird speed up? Strikes me as super unusual considering uploading a digital file onto a website shouldn't effect speed.

It's possible the source file, at least for this film, was 25p. I don't know why that would've been provided that given that a 24p master surely exists, but who knows, it could've just been a simple mixup. (One benefit of streaming is that it permits frame-rate conversion to happen on the server side based on the enduser's configuration, meaning the streamer doesn't have to worry about, say, whether the users' TVs can all handle 25p content—the downside being that it's less critical to get the frame rate right in the first place.)

[cowboydan]

Could it have been because the dcp files the theatrical distributor is sending to the theaters is 25p ? So then they're using the same files for the stream as they would use for a real projection through a digital projector? (if Europe / HK cinemas still use 25 digital projection) I have very very little knowledge about this, so forgive me if what I'm speculating isn't applicable.

[Finch]

Thank you for those captures cowboy dan, much appreciated! The 4k doesn't look horrible but I prefer the colors of the original cut as well. And the addition of gunshots to the title card deserves a #-o [-X

[andyli]

Could it have been because the dcp files the theatrical distributor is sending to the theaters is 25p ? So then they're using the same files for the stream as they would use for a real projection through a digital projector? (if Europe / HK cinemas still use 25 digital projection) I have very very little knowledge about this, so forgive me if what I'm speculating isn't applicable.

If you tell us the total length of the uploaded stream video, we can figure out if its a 24/23.976 discrepancy or a 25/23.976 one.