1930s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 3)

[Murdoch]

GWTW

There are a few grating parts, one that sticks out to me is the rather humorous part involving Thomas Mitchell's death where he falls off a horse and the film quickly cuts to his tombstone, obviously not funny in subject matter but more due to how his death just seems thrown in to add to the melodrama.

This is what I was getting at about plot-conveniencing deaths. I think the father's death is clearly meant to parallel the daughter's death later in the film, but I feel like both of the deaths are just thrown in there in an attempt to ratchet sympathy from the audience through as little effort as possible. This may just be a pet peeve of mine, but I am really resistant to characters dying in stories unless it either feels like it has to be done to show how high the stakes really are, or because that's what the story is about. If your story is a frothy romcom or something and you kill someone off toward the end just to add a level of gravitas, I'm not buying it. In any case, all these deaths do for me in GWTW is teach me that anyone who ever goes horseback riding is going to die in a few minutes.

Spoiler

I agree with that, my problem is the film cares so little about his death that you can't look at it as anything more than plot convenience, his death occurs in a manner of minutes (seconds maybe), just him hopping on a horse, falling off, cut to tombstone and hey he's dead, and now that that's out of the way look at Scarlet emoting!

[zedz]

You people [-X

p.s. Just spotted Gone With the Wind hiding away at 63 - pardon duly granted - but... James Cagney is gonna put a cap in your ass

You freaked me out for a moment there, as I remember my delight when Gone with the Wind failed to make the grade last time around. You're looking at the first iteration of the list. The last run through (2006?) is further down the opening post.

So, can I count on you for Roaring Twenties support?

[Wu.Qinghua]

I'm still pondering about the movie, but I'm pretty sure it will make my list and end up as one of my favourite Japanese 30s movies:

What made her do it? (Shigeyoshi Suzuki, Japan 1930)

WMHDI is said to be the most popular Japanese leftist 'proletarian film' of the 1920/30s, depicting the miserable life of a young girl drifting through feudal (?) Japan in the 1920s, after her parents committed suicide. The story is somewhat loosely arranged and unfortunately important parts of the movie (especially the end, which is a real pity, as it might effectively counterbalance the somewhat downbeat mood of the surviving previous 60+ minutes) seem to be lost forever. But I do like the atmospheric visuals, and, in the end, Suzuki packs a mighty punch on central institutions of the Japanese society in the 30s.

WMHDI is momentarily available on a Japanese DVD with English subtitles only, though Filmmuseum is preparing are German edition for a yet indefinite moment in the future. But, as had already been written elsewhere, copies with English subtitles are floating around and, at present, the film can also be seen on the Tube.

Btw, I'll support the Roaring Twenties, too.

[zedz]

Speaking of Gone With the Wind, I actually hadn't seen it until a TCM broadcast toward the beginning of this list, and I was surprised by how quickly the 4-hour running time went by.

That's funny, because my big beef with the film is that it seems to run for days. I saw it in ideal circumstances (fresh 35mm print, 1920s movie palace) and I still felt like gnawing my own legs off for amusement before we even hit the intermission. It's probably the most sorely my 'watch every film through until the end' rule has ever been tested, and the second half was even more unbearable. The ingrained racism was like icing the dead rat I had to swallow with vomit.

[Murdoch]

I don't know, the racism didn't bother me anymore than any other Hollywood film from the period, and my viewing was less than ideal (I don't think the movie aired until 10pm). If I watched it again it would probably drag, but that night I just thoroughly enjoyed Leigh's performance and since she's rarely off-screen the running time didn't bother me. Usually Leigh's overacting bugs me, but here it felt perfectly in line with the character.

[Michael Kerpan]

I found What Made Her Do It interesting -- but a bit too "over the top" to make it onto my top favorites list. Roaring 20s, however, will be on my list (assuming I find time -- and energy -- to do one).

[Nothing]

Ah, there are two previous versions of the list, that explains it... pardon duly recinded.

Vivien Leigh, whose character is so oblivious and self-absorbed that she at one point daintily traipses over a field of wounded soldiers because she needs the doctor to come to her house right then and take care of her friend. I like the idea of a petty melodrama playing in the foreground while people are losing their homes and their lives all around.

This sums it up fairly well. That the film embraces Scarlett's selfishness, without either obscuring or trying to justify it. Her narrative and her concerns are petty and yet they consume her and consume the attention of the audience, and there's something genuinely and honestly human about that. And to then place such a character at the centre of a great big sweeping Technicolor war epic makes the film quite unique.

Roaring Twenties for sure.

Incidentally, what's the consensus on the Borzage talkies recently released by the Warner Archive Collection (Mannequin, Flirtation Walk, Shining Hour, Shipmates Forever) and also the William Wellman pre-code talkies set (Forbidden Hollywood 3)? All look interesting...

[myrnaloyisdope]

Incidentally, what's the consensus on the Borzage talkies recently released by the Warner Archive Collection (Mannequin, Flirtation Walk, Shining Hour, Shipmates Forever) and also the William Wellman pre-code talkies set (Forbidden Hollywood 3)? All look interesting...

Can't comment on the Borzages, but the Wellman set is a must have. 5 of the 6 films are really really good, and the only dud (The Purchase Price) is still a pretty unusual and weird film that is worth checking out if only for Barbara Stanwyck and the odd sexual politics. Essentially Stanwyck, a big city woman ends up in small town Minnesota, betrothed to Swedish immigrant George Brent and what ensues is a bizarre look at marital sexual politics and frigidity.

Midnight Mary, has Wellman doing his best MGM-style soft focus picture, with Loretta Young as a girl from the wrong side of the tracks, who stays there. It's a lovely looking picture, that still maintains a grittiness underneath the shimmering surface.

Heroes For Sale is likely in my top ten, it's a blistering whirlwind of just about every theme imaginable packed into 70 minutes of screen time and yet some how never feels rushed. It's a miraculous film. War, addiction, labor strife, commies, poverty, the Great Depression, riots, the mechanization of industry, and "The End of America." I can't speak highly enough of the film.

Other Men's Women - A really vibrant and lively early talkie, with lots of great outdoor shooting, a pre-stardom Jimmy Cagney and some fine documentary footage. There's a really great sequence with Cagney on top of a moving train, just hopping along each car and nonchalantly having a conversation. It's moments like those where you know someone is going to be star. Plus it has Joan Blondell being Joan Blondell a.k.a awesome.

Wild Boys of The Road - Another gritty film, with Frankie Darro and his teenage crew hopping trains and trying to scrape by in the Depression. Some of the sequences have a frightening authenticity, such as when a mob of young train hoppers go toe to toe with the railyard police. It's films like these that make pre-code Warner's probably my favorite studio era.

Frisco Jenny - the plot is a fairly hokey one, about a famous madam (Ruth Chatterton) who gives up her infant son, only to see him rise to district attorney and unknowingly try to convict his mother. Fortunately Chatterton gives a pretty fucking great performance and the final sequence with her sans-make up being completely understated, yet completely devastating is a total standout.

So highly recommended all around and I would also urge anyone to track down Wellman's Hatchet Man, which is probably his most moody and atmospheric film and manages to overcome the seemingly impossible odds of having both Edward G. Robinson and Loretta Young in yellow-face, only to turn into a really moving and great film.

[Nothing]

Sounds excellent, thanks.

[swo17]

TCM is airing a run of '30s screwball comedies tonight--Bringing Up Baby, Twentieth Century, Nothing Sacred, Merrily We Live, Theodora Goes Wild, and The Awful Truth.

[movielocke]

Merrily we Live! I think I may have to record that for the girlfriend to watch.

[knives]

Does Hepburn in Bringing Up Baby have a redeemable trait? I'm loving the movie in part because of this, but she is the most unlikeable and horrible screwball protagonist I've ever seen and I can't imagine they actually got away with that.

[matrixschmatrix]

I don't know, I thought her fairly charming in a self-centered way. There's certainly a proto-manic pixie dream girl quality to her, though.

[knives]

I agree she's charming, but beneath that MPDG veneer beats the heart of a psychotic. The crying scene just started up and while I'm laughing very heartily her behavior simultaneously disgusts. It makes for good comedy, but it also makes me feel bad for enjoying the film so much.

[sinemadelisikiz]

I agree she's charming, but beneath that MPDG veneer beats the heart of a psychotic. The crying scene just started up and while I'm laughing very heartily her behavior simultaneously disgusts. It makes for good comedy, but it also makes me feel bad for enjoying the film so much.

I usually hear nothing but praise for this film, but I'm really inclined to agree with you. I saw it first sometime in high school and absolutely loved it, but seeing it again recently felt like a real chore. I'm pretty disappointed that my opinion of it has fallen so. I mean, I find it amusing that Hepburn is this unstoppable force that completely emasculates Grant (we are sort of laughing at his pain after all), but mostly I find her painfully tiring to watch.

[matrixschmatrix]

I think it's harder to enjoy Baby after seeing Holiday, which is the same pairing but with less farce and more lovable characters- there are aspects to the farce that just seem arbitrary and cruel, and the movie begins working against the grain of what I want to see happen. That's certainly not universally a bad thing for a movie to do, but it doesn't seem like it fits a light comedy. I don't want Grant to wind up with Hepburn, because she's exhausting and kind of cruel (though fun to watch) and I don't really want to see a light comedy where the relationship functions as punishment for one of the characters.

Holiday, on the other hand, manages to maneuver through the normal, artificial rom-com separation of the couple with unusual grace, so that you never start to hate the characters for being stupid- the conflicts are real ones, and they more or less behave like adults, emotionally. That, combined with characters you like in the first place, means that the overall effect of the movie is delightful- not just because the two prettiest people wind up together, but because you feel like they're actually suggesting an interestingly different way to have a relationship, and developing a partnership that seems fairly real.

[knives]

Minus the Holiday bit since I haven't seen that film that definitely announces my feelings better. Like wise I think Capt. Ascot ironed out the problems of the Hepburn character extremely well in What's Up, Doc? which doesn't have the nastiness.

[Murdoch]

I actually had the opposite reaction, I saw Baby after Holiday, and while the latter left me cold, Baby I found to be complete delight. I found Grant's naivete in Holiday more trying than Hepburn's "cruelty" in Baby, although I don't see her as cruel, more tenacious in her resolve to win over Grant.

[knives]

Wouldn't you say a side effect of her tenacity, which itself seems to be a form of naivete, is a cruelty though that tortures Grant costing him far more than any relationship could?

[Murdoch]

I hesitate to call her actions cruel as I don't think there was any malice on her part, more that her naive attempts at winning over Grant led to these situations which she didn't intend but she cared little since she got to be with him the entire time.

[matrixschmatrix]

Haha, well, that kind of takes the wind out of my sails, but anyway: watch Holiday if you get the chance, Knives. It's in this set, which is pretty well all killer stuff, and I know Domino has said it's a favorite- I was really impressed in spite of the fact that it's not at all a genre I normally enjoy.

As I said, I actually largely like Baby, though it's not a favorite- I like it when Hepburn gets a chance to be fun, and I like that she's not punished for being a woman with an independent personality. But her character seems monstrously self centered, and I don't like the idea that Grant should just deal with it- in a funny way, it's dehumanizing to her, since it reads to me as though suggesting that yes, women are childish, and men should accept that women are childish.

I didn't find his character in Holiday painfully naive, but that may be in part because I felt like I was watching through Hepburn's eyes that time- he doesn't seem naive because he's not privy to the information that we are, through her character. Moreover, her sister is likable enough that it's actually totally believe that someone would like her- she's not just a paper tiger, a villain stuck in so that he'll have someone to throw over.

edit: Also, Holiday has Edward Everett Horton, so if you were ever a Rocky and Bullwinkle fan, it's like a warm blanket showing up repeatedly throughout the movie. And unlike Trouble in Paradise he's not there to be made an ass of.

[knives]

Okay, using those semantics, which in hindsight I agree with, the fallout of her actions lead to cruel tortures for those surrounding her.

Edit: Already have The Awful Truth, but I can always sell that off. I do agree on Baby in that the funny bits are good, but grafted onto the story in the way that they are just icks me out. Twentieth Century is the Hawks for me this decade.

[sinemadelisikiz]

I don't want Grant to wind up with Hepburn, because she's exhausting and kind of cruel (though fun to watch) and I don't really want to see a light comedy where the relationship functions as punishment for one of the characters.

In this sense, the end of Bringing Up Baby is very similar to My Man Godfrey where

Spoiler

our male protagonist ends up romantically entangled (marriage in the latter's case) to a selfish, immature "dizzy dame" whom he'd been trying to avoid the advances of the whole duration of the film.

But in the case of Godfrey, I find the film as a whole far less distasteful perhaps because Lombard isn't nearly as psychotic as Hepburn and Powell isn't nearly as resistant.
I second the Holiday recommendation (that set's great), though I wouldn't compare it to Baby in any way other than the cast. It doesn't feel like a screwball comedy at all, at least in terms of pace. I agree that the characters all behave like adults and don't really act without reason.

[knives]

I was also thinking Godfrey, but I think every one knows that marriage isn't the right solution here so it somehow makes things work better as a bad solution.

[Murdoch]

I think what differs Godfrey's ending from Baby's is that Godfrey ends so abruptly that the final scene is more like a culmination of the ridiculous events Powell experienced with the family than wrapping up his relationship with Lombard. I guess my reaction to Baby was just different, as I thought Hepburn's manic actions were preferable to Grant's fiance who seemed to only care about the museum exhibit, and that the film was in the mold of the high-strung and bored individual being forced out of his shell by the eccentric. But more than anything else I just find the film so funny, and both it and Godfrey are in my top five, maybe I just have a thing for crazy women...