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captveg wrote:As for the conspiracy theories.... you guys are hilarious. No one in the industry thinks like this.

What, you mean all business people are always honest or true to their word and never wish to undercut the competition?

Thanks for restoring my faith in human nature as a whole by arguing that Kino's move can instead be attributed to systematic incompetence in communications and a general lack of quality control on all fronts of the production work on this BD edition.

Kino's mistake doesn't affect me any more than it does you, since I had long ago decided to get the MoC, a much more interesting package on every front. But I do believe this situation gives rise to legitimate questions, even if the ultimate explanation turns out to indeed be human error.

Here's a suggestion. Why don't we make the next two weeks our "Solidarity With MoC Fortnight"? I'm sure we've all got a few MoC titles on our Wants Lists that we keep promising to buy but never do as we are distracted by the constant release of newer titles. To show solidarity with MoC, why not buy one of those DVDs or BDs over the next fourteen days?

I've already pre-ordered their Metropolis, so I might plump for Sunrise or City Girl.

And naturally Kino need to be boycotted. In general, I prefer cock up before conspiracy explanations, but the combination of no region-locking on the discs and the lack of a Region A logo on the packaging is fishy. If I were a juror in a court case weighing up the balance of probablity, I'd find Kino guilty.

Anyway, who's with me on the Solidarity With MoC Fortnight?

RossyG wrote:Anyway, who's with me on the Solidarity With MoC Fortnight?

Count me in. I've already decided to hold off on purchasing the Kino Metropolis BD until it's available used (unless MoC were to announce a region-free pressing, in which case I'd hold off indefinitely). There are one or two MoC DVD titles I might consider importing (already have the BDs I want), but at the least I will not be buying Kino titles in the future unless they take steps to restore their goodwill.

RossyG wrote:Anyway, who's with me on the Solidarity With MoC Fortnight?

Haha, I don't know if it's really a political action, but if they put up another sale (as they said they would around mid month) I'll almost definitely buy something. Hopefully, Tabu. I already preordered the Metropolis/T-shirt thing, so they're at least getting some money out of a few Americans.

MoC should direct sell a region-free blu-ray deck on their sales page.

kndy wrote: The problem many of you have is region blocking. This has been going on for a long time and it's not going to stop.

This argument is a red herring in this instance, I believe. If the chain of events reported a while back by MoC is correct - and Kino hasn't disputed this - the only reason Metropolis was region-coded was that Kino insisted, and forced the other international licensees to comply. This was all about protecting the American market for Kino, not about protecting the smaller ones elsewhere for their respective labels, so Kino's non-compliance is either gratuitous greed or a gigantic fuck you -- or another chapter in the glorious saga of one-way US protectionism.

There is no question that Kino selling Metropolis in region free format after reaching an agreement to code it for region 1 is not right. Let us assume that it was a genuine error, not a deliberate act. Putting aside emotions around the issue, Peerpee, what would you like Kino to do at this point? There is no point escalating this to a pitch that may benefit no-one. If you can agree upon a mutually acceptable compensation (either monetary or about a future region-coding practice), we can put the issue behind us. I would like to think that from a PR standpoint Kino would consider a reasonable settlement for its error.

I think the only honorable thing to do is allow MoC to change their release, for all future printings, to region free. I also sincerely hope MoC never make an agreement with Kino again (not because of this mistake but just because it's unnecessary).

zedz wrote:

kndy wrote: The problem many of you have is region blocking. This has been going on for a long time and it's not going to stop.

This argument is a red herring in this instance, I believe. If the chain of events reported a while back by MoC is correct - and Kino hasn't disputed this - the only reason Metropolis was region-coded was that Kino insisted, and forced the other international licensees to comply. This was all about protecting the American market for Kino, not about protecting the smaller ones elsewhere for their respective labels, so Kino's non-compliance is either gratuitous greed or a gigantic fuck you -- or another chapter in the glorious saga of one-way US protectionism.

Or another FUBAR in quality control. Which happens more often than one would hope in this industry.

The only satisfactory solution is for Kino to pay for a Region-Free repressing of the MoC blu-rays...

No, why make Kino take a huge financial loss and make them release less titles as a result? We have so few good Blu releasing companies already. Kino should give MoC a couple of HD masters for free, or lots of extras etc, as well as not enforcing region coding on others again. Recalling their disks or repressing MoC's would be insanely expensive and would hurt us all

Ending the policy of region-coding (and by extension forcing others to encode) might be a step in the right direction as far as rectifying the situation. But this is more from my perspective. I think Nick & co. will have their own view on what would make it right and will most likely discuss with Kino without broadcasting the matter.

As MichaelB (and likely others) have raised previously: its rather moot to discuss financial compensation in these matters as MOC rights do not extend to the US market. We know that region restrictions will adversely impact their sales, but from a rights-holder's contractual perspective it shouldn't.

In the end nothing will likely come of this, nothing positive at least. Bummer, I still hadn't picked up any of the other Kino blu's and was hoping to for Xmas. Oh well...

Seems this discussion is now on three threads: Metropolis, Kino and MOC: Metropolis. Might be a good idea to break it off to a dedicated thread as this isn't likely to peter out soon.

dad1153 wrote:Beaver.

Looks impressive. Looking forward to the Kalat/Rosenbaum commentary as well.
Hope that the pre-orders will be shipped this week.

Would appear pre-orders are shipping today.

How do you know?

Maybe because if they waited any longer, the word "pre" wouldn't apply anymore?

Der Spieler wrote:How do you know?

When asked about them already being shipped, Kevin made a post yesterday over at blu-ray.com...

Packing them at our replicators meant they only arrived in with us about 4 this afternoon, most of them should make it out the door tomorrow.

will let you know when I know more, I'm on holiday at the moment so getting shipping information a bit late.

Response on Kino's Facebook page:

To the DVD and Blu-Ray Community:

Our release of the newly restored METROPOLIS streets today, November 16th, on DVD and next Tuesday, November 23rd, on Blu-Ray.

By license and according to our own instructions, these discs should be encoded for Region 1 (DVD) and Region A (Blu-Ray) only. Due to a misunderstanding with our authoring house, the masters for the initial replication of both the DVD and Blu-ray editions were made region-free.

This was unintentional and we apologize to the local distributors in other territories that might be affected. We have no wish to see the US version sold abroad -- it is contrary to our standard practices and intent and we have corrected this issue going forward.

New printing masters for both the DVD and Blu-Ray editions have been made and, as of last Friday, November 12th, were in place at our duplicators. Every Kino DVD and Blu-Ray of METROPOLIS manufactured from yesterday (November 15th) on will be properly encoded for Region 1 (DVD) and Region A (Blu-Ray) only. Packaging will be corrected when the current stock runs out.

We encourage all foreign cinephiles and collectors to support their local distributor's editions by purchasing the proper region coded and PAL standard or Blu-Ray version appropriate for their territory, rather than our NTSC edition.

Sincerely,

Donald Krim
President, Kino International Corp.
Co-President, Kino Lorber, Inc

I love it.

Priceless. Do their other region-coded blu's have a similar display?

Now if only there was an easter egg bypass to region-free goodness--click third eyeball from the left and it passes the inquisitive user to the main menu

skuhn8 wrote:Priceless. Do their other region-coded blu's have a similar display?

I believe so, though as I'm safely ensconced in Region B-land, I can't check this out for myself.

I've just had a flick through the debate on the Kino region free issue. Captveg talks sense. Sorry to be blunt about this, but almost everything else everybody else has said is absolute twaddle. There is no way Kino would have done this intentionally, and if they had, surely they would surely have marketed it as such? You guys need to get a grip. Kino would have most likely been contractually obliged to release in a certain territory, most likely described as North America. Eureka probably have the UK rights as opposed to Europe. I do not see why Eureka and Kino would have spoken to each other, apart from checking their release dates were not too far out of whack. I would have expected that they would independently license the rights from FW Murnau, who as far as I am aware are the rights holders. The idea that Kino would try and get around all these contractual obligations by fiddling the region encoding is quite frankly preposterous. What is more, I would be astounded if it has actually benefited them in any was in regards to trade. I know for a fact that the MoC Steelbook has all but sold out already, so they are certainly not feeling the impact. I mean, do you honestly think the UK customers would buy the Kino release over the MoC?

So in short, it is a mistake. This happens all the time. Like Captveg has said, the region can be set by one single button. Preparing these things correctly is incredibly complicated, most DVDs and Blu-rays have a few minor defects in their preparation, which most of the time nobody notices. It just so happens that on this first run, there happens to be a minor glitch, which does not actually stop the intended audience from viewing it or make any difference to the viewing experience, and they have now addressed it. I come across loads of discs from all houses that seem to have incorrectly calibrated surround sound encodes.

I personally do not think that Eureka would have been too bothered. I expect they would have been keen to have it addressed, but guys, it is not even like the Kino title is distributed in the UK!

Sorry to be blunt about this, but almost everything else everybody else has said is absolute twaddle. There is no way Kino would have done this intentionally, and if they had, surely they would surely have marketed it as such? You guys need to get a grip.

So that's the new plan to win an argument - insult people into submission. Terrific, brilliant strategy!

Look, you're basically saying mistakes happen, get over it and that MoC and consumers have no right to be upset. I'm sorry but you tend to be overlooking or diverting away from the cause of this debacle - this whole incident would never have happened or mattered if Kino had not demanded MoC and other companies to region-lock Metropolis. They did and now look what's happened.

As I've already stated, even if we accept the premise that it was not deliberate, at the very least it still does not excuse that Kino did not exercise due care and attention with regards to region coding on this release. MoC have a right to be annoyed over this.

And I'm sorry but even if the Kino Metropolis is not distributed in the UK, it does not mean that it cannot be bought in the UK - check out the Kino thread; somebody bought it in the Cinema Zone shop the other day. Also don't forget Movietyme imports.

To be honest, it's the lack of remorse and justifications now that I find more galling than the incident itself.

Robert Wheeler wrote:I personally do not think that Eureka would have been too bothered.

Erm... you are aware that Peerpee works for Masters of Cinema, aren't you? If not, you might want to re-read his posts - not just the ones about his reaction (which was the polar opposite of "not too bothered"), but the ones confirming that he did indeed strike an agreement with Kino, and that Kino initiated it.

Whatever you think of the tone, his is undoubtedly the most authoritative voice here, if only because he's privy to documents and discussions that the rest of us haven't been. Captveg's comments, however convincing you might find them, are as based on educated guesswork as everyone else's - albeit highly educated in his case.

Look, I think Eureka are fantastic, they are the class of the field when it comes to DVD releases of any kind, and they are a well run company. They are right to be concerned that people in other territories are respecting their licenses and they are right to request issues are addressed. However, is it right, or does it make sense to make a major issue in a public forum about an issue that affects the initial run, and which has now been addressed? If it really is an issue, surely it is in Eureka's interest to keep it as quiet as possible rather than to encourage it being spouted all over this forum? And then is it right for other people to come up with what are quite frankly balmy conspiracy theories that ignore basic realities of the business, such as the strict restrictions of license agreements?

I think what is happening here is that there are a group of people that are angry because they feel that Kino's releases are sub-par compared to Eureka's, and who would rather have the Eureka version, and they are venting that anger with irrational accusations over the reasons this error happened. If these people were really concerned about it that much, they would be satisfied with Kino correcting the region encoding rather than demanding that Eureka drop their encoding in retaliation. To me it just seems like a bunch of people stirring up trouble because they want to cause a fall out, under some misapprehension that it is purely a 'gentleman's agreement' that prevents them releasing in each others territories.

I think some require more assessment of the benefits of region encoding. If region encoding did not exist it would make the industry very different indeed, and most likely not for the better. Region encoding reinforces territorial agreements, which makes it easier for labels to compete in smaller markets. If region encoding disappeared it would most likely lead to a breakdown of the territorial system, and as a result increasingly the likelihood of single worldwide releases of titles coming from monopolising all-encompassing labels. I do not think it is likely that it will be labels with the quality of Eureka that will find themselves in the position of being in charge of a monopoly. If you really want the MoC release, in this day and age where the Blu-ray HD standards are actually more or less the same throughout the world, then is it really that much of a hardship to get hold of a multi-region player to enjoy them?