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I’ve received a couple of titles today and consider all of them reference.

- Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

- Dr. Seuss’ How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Flawless encode, restoration and grade by Warner. All three shorts look beautiful with the highlight being the main attraction. A wonderful release.

- Trap (for fus1on): This is one of the best 4K encodes I’ve seen for an analogue film by a major studio and especially so because Sayombhu Mukdeeprom’s colors often lean exactly into the territory that almost always causes issues for labels like Kino, Shout and even Criterion at the areas near the highlights. Those gentle, yellow tones usually from sunlight reflections at walls, buildings, on faces etc. Unless the encoder is very, very good, these areas suffer and grain often collapses - but not so here. Grain is incredibly fine, too, which is also problematic with Paramount in particular as they’ve set their software to drop bitrates whenever that’s the case but, again, Trap looks just fantastic here. This is should be a reference encode from start to finish. The HDR grade is *very* dim, maxing at just 99 nits similar to Heat, so adjust viewing conditions accordingly.

For the contemporary list, I just got American Sniper and it looks like outstanding. To my eyes, great encoding and HDR grade. But the BD was already pretty strong and featured the same reference Atmos mix. Probably best to add to solid tier.

Definitely agree on Godzilla, Trap, and Seven Samurai being great releases (very excited to see what the BFI release looks like in comparison to the Criterion).

Will add Trap to Reference Tier and American Sniper to Solid Tier in the Contemporary List.

hearthesilence wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 9:06 pm I wasn't going to look a gift horse in the mouth, but in all honesty, I wasn't expecting a huge benefit from a UHD presentation over a standard Blu-ray. As the notes mentioned:

"This new 4K restoration was created from a 35mm duplicate negative. The original monaural soundtrack was remastered from a 35mm nitrate composite fine-grain provided by the Cinematheque quebeqoise."

And per this November 2017 issue of Post:

Post wrote:"The original negative no longer exists, so we scoured the globe for elements that might be in better shape than our copy," says Peter Schade, vice president of content management at NBCUniversal's Global Media Operations. "We ended up using a duplicate negative from the British Film Institute. Our dupe negative had some damage and jump cuts from where frames had been fixed, but the British dupe negative didn't have as much repair work: it was smoother all the way through." The audio restoration was done from a nitrate fine grain from La Cinematheque Quebecoise in Montreal.

In other words, the generational loss inherent in a duplicate negative (which I'm guessing was not a product of any digital scanning) meant a good bit of information from the original image capture would've been lost, from dynamic range to the actual detail. So basically not a whole lot of "extra" information to be revealed in a UHD, aside from a better presentation of the physical texture of the film elements used (film grain, etc.)

EDIT: Finch's post backs up my last sentence:

Finch wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 8:55 pm The Scarface screenshots are here. I'm sticking with my Imprint Blu-Ray.

Make sure to select full UHD resolution and you'll see exactly what I mean. The information left over from the original image capture (i.e. when they turned on the camera and burned the original camera negative) is virtually identical, but the physical texture of the scanned element looks noticeably better on the UHD, and personally I do appreciate that, I think it's pretty gorgeous to have film grain look that way. But I'm sure it's not important for a lot of people.

very informational on this, thank you. honestly wish I'd known that (and it's truly on me, since I could've easily found it) before grabbing the disc, cause the Imprint wins massive points for me for having the original poster on the sleeve and Tony Rayns in the extras. was really excited for the film to finally get a great (stateside, I guess) edition and didn't want to wait. I admittedly missed the grainier side of the image in motion, something I can usually spot pretty alright...but alas. I'm glad Criterion saw it fit to put the movie on 4K, as it's certainly a title worthy of it, but the upgrade is just too negligible for me personally - I'll probably gift this edition and grab the Imprint, as I really missed having a scholarly angle to this. while I don't like Drew Casper at all, 28 minutes of Rayns is basically a commentary compared to others, you'll get the same amount of info!

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:09 am- Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

blindly bought this since I never got the BD back in the day, so this is really reassuring to hear! very glad Criterion has knocked their first two Toho UHDs out of the park, makes me really reassured for their inevitable High and Low 4K

ryannichols7 wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 7:40 am

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:09 am- Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

blindly bought this since I never got the BD back in the day, so this is really reassuring to hear! very glad Criterion has knocked their first two Toho UHDs out of the park, makes me really reassured for their inevitable High and Low 4K

Same for me. This is my first time having the original Godzilla on disc and I had reservations getting it, even at 50% off solely due to the comments about the master but when seeing it, I couldn’t wish for more considering the circumstances, just as with Seven Samurai. Looking forward to getting the BFI hopefully this weekend already to see how their presentation is. I’m especially excited to see if they’ve also cleaned up the master further and what’s going on with the subtitles.

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 8:13 am Same for me. This is my first time having the original Godzilla on disc and I had reservations getting it, even at 50% off solely due to the comments about the master but when seeing it, I couldn’t wish for more considering the circumstances, just as with Seven Samurai. Looking forward to getting the BFI hopefully this weekend already to see how their presentation is. I’m especially excited to see if they’ve also cleaned up the master further and what’s going on with the subtitles.

it was honestly the perfect thing to read after posting about Scarface because it does seem miracles can still happen even with these more "problematic" masters. I know a lot of Japanese films seem to suffer from these issues but if Toho keep up their strong restoration campaign and Criterion is able to draw from the well, I'll be very pleased. hoping the BFI Seven Samurai and Watership Down make it over to the US soon

I do hope we see 4Ks of some of Criterion's earlier Japanese BD releases that have since gotten 4K restorations. Pale Flower is a huge favorite of mine and since Demon Pond already got one I don't see why the more popular film can't. Tokyo Drifter is another example, and though The Burmese Harp never got a BD upgrade from Criterion, that new restoration would look stunning on the format too, judging from the trailer

ryannichols7 wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:04 amit was honestly the perfect thing to read after posting about Scarface because it does seem miracles can still happen even with these more "problematic" masters. I know a lot of Japanese films seem to suffer from these issues but if Toho keep up their strong restoration campaign and Criterion is able to draw from the well, I'll be very pleased. hoping the BFI Seven Samurai and Watership Down make it over to the US soon

I do hope we see 4Ks of some of Criterion's earlier Japanese BD releases that have since gotten 4K restorations. Pale Flower is a huge favorite of mine and since Demon Pond already got one I don't see why the more popular film can't. Tokyo Drifter is another example, and though The Burmese Harp never got a BD upgrade from Criterion, that new restoration would look stunning on the format too, judging from the trailer

I think by now, virtually any film Criterion have that's available in a 4K master and is at least somewhat renowned among critics and cinephiles is a candidate for a 4K. Once they announced Demon Pond and The Mother and the Wh0re in 4K they clearly showcased that they're now being more bold in the market. Both of these most likely would've been BD-only not long ago. The Burmese Harp is practically guaranteed in 4K too.

@fus1on: I've grabbed the Studiocanal Train to Busan and Peninsula 4Ks in an offer and am very pleasantly surprised by their presentations. Both are fantastic UHDs with very faithful and pleasing upscales and encodes. There's no AI use, sharpening or poor HDR grading to be found. I already have the Well Go 4K of Train to Busan and the SC is definitely better encoded and shows more detail. In comparison, the Well Go (BD-66) appears slightly filtered compared to the BD-100 SC. Sound is Atmos, 5.1 and 2.0 for both and to my ears there's no audible difference between the Busan Atmos mixes and bitrates are also very similar. Both of these are definitely recommended and currently in a sale at Amazon UK and I'd say both SC discs belong in the reference category whereas the Well Go Train to Busan is solid. I don't have their Peninsula release though but can imagine it's the same situation.

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:09 am - Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

The booklet for Godzilla apparantly credits Criterion for the audio restoration, which leads me to asssume they reused their blu-ray's audio instead of the better track from the Toho 4K, if that's something you could check

Two more proposals for solid tier of contemporary list -- Sicario (Lionsgate) and Skyfall (MGM). No major issues upon re-watching but still feel like they could've been better. Plus their BD counterparts are strong (particularly Skyfall). They both look amazing so open to being convinced if others feel either belongs in reference tier.

M-A wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:13 pm

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:09 am - Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

The booklet for Godzilla apparantly credits Criterion for the audio restoration, which leads me to asssume they reused their blu-ray's audio instead of the better track from the Toho 4K, if that's something you could check

I can compare against the Criterion BD tonight but I don't have the Toho 4K. Would be a real shame if they were that lazy (again).

rberrios15 wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:15 pm Two more proposals for solid tier of contemporary list -- Sicario (Lionsgate) and Skyfall (MGM). No major issues upon re-watching but still feel like they could've been better. Plus their BD counterparts are strong (particularly Skyfall). They both look amazing so open to being convinced if others feel either belongs in reference tier.

Both are Deakins-shot films and the UHDs came out at a time when he wasn't yet convinced of HDR, so the solid tier makes sense.

M-A wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:13 pm

nicolas wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:09 am - Criterion’s Godzilla. It’s a significant upgrade even though the film was slightly processed. Miraculously, as with Seven Samurai, Criterion rescued the grain and the film looks beautifully organic. The difference to the old BD is significant as the film was further cleaned up and stabilized. Color grading in SDR is excellent, as is the encode.

The booklet for Godzilla apparantly credits Criterion for the audio restoration, which leads me to asssume they reused their blu-ray's audio instead of the better track from the Toho 4K, if that's something you could check

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to compare Godzilla after Seven Samurai surprisingly arrived today. It’s unfortunately the same bad track on BD and 4K. How much better is the Toho?

@fus1on: Bones & All (Shout) caps show a strong upgrade to the disappointingly encoded Warner BD, such as here. Highlight recovery is also notable in caps 2 and 9.

A24’s Showing Up is all but identical detail-wise between the BD and 4K but caps like this reveal how significant these minor format upgrades can be if HDR is used. What do you think regarding the category for this one?

As always, credit to Kobe / cinemaniac for buying all these releases and doing the screenshots! Much appreciated.

nicolas wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:35 pm

M-A wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:13 pm The booklet for Godzilla apparantly credits Criterion for the audio restoration, which leads me to asssume they reused their blu-ray's audio instead of the better track from the Toho 4K, if that's something you could check

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to compare Godzilla after Seven Samurai surprisingly arrived today. It’s unfortunately the same bad track on BD and 4K. How much better is the Toho?

I think I was misremembering... The Toho track for Godzilla really isn't very good and is worse than the Criterion, so I guess they made the right decision there. I heard that the track on the German blu-ray is completely unfiltered and is much better than all other releases, but I don't have it to check, unfortunately.

M-A wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 12:04 am

nicolas wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 10:35 pm

M-A wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:13 pm The booklet for Godzilla apparantly credits Criterion for the audio restoration, which leads me to asssume they reused their blu-ray's audio instead of the better track from the Toho 4K, if that's something you could check

Sorry for the late reply, I forgot to compare Godzilla after Seven Samurai surprisingly arrived today. It’s unfortunately the same bad track on BD and 4K. How much better is the Toho?

I think I was misremembering... The Toho track for Godzilla really isn't very good and is worse than the Criterion, so I guess they made the right decision there. I heard that the track on the German blu-ray is completely unfiltered and is much better than all other releases, but I don't have it to check, unfortunately.

I take that as great news as a used copy of the OOP German BD is much more affordable than anything from Japan. I’ve decided to give it a try and can always sell the BD again if it isn’t up to task.

Contemporary UHDs List Update:

Adding Bones and All (Shout Factory) to Reference Tier

Adding Sicario (Lionsgate) to Solid Tier

Adding Skyfall (MGM) to Solid Tier

Side Note: I personally think Sicario is a Reference Tier disc, but since rberrios and nicolas outvoted me, I'm adding it to Solid Tier.

Fus1on wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:21 pm Side Note: I personally think Sicario is a Reference Tier disc, but since rberrios and nicolas outvoted me, I'm adding it to Solid Tier.

On its own, I’m definitely with you but if we’re looking at it from an upgrade perspective, solid feels more appropriate to me but you’re welcome to leave it in reference. I’ve no problem with that.

nicolas wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 5:38 pm

Fus1on wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 3:21 pm Side Note: I personally think Sicario is a Reference Tier disc, but since rberrios and nicolas outvoted me, I'm adding it to Solid Tier.

On its own, I’m definitely with you but if we’re looking at it from an upgrade perspective, solid feels more appropriate to me but you’re welcome to leave it in reference. I’ve no problem with that.

Agreed but also fine with me to leave it in reference!

For solid tier of contemporary list with same caveat as Baby Driver:

Ford v Ferrari (Fox) (Reference Atmos; solid video)

I didn't realize the 30th anniversary UHD of Groundhog Day is a different grading/encode than the 25th anniversary UHD. It's a subtle but noticeable difference and it sounds like most prefer the 30th anniversary edition. Good to know, especially when the one on sale at Amazon is the 25th anniversary edition.

hearthesilence wrote:I didn't realize the 30th anniversary UHD of Groundhog Day is a different grading/encode than the 25th anniversary UHD. It's a subtle but noticeable difference and it sounds like most prefer the 30th anniversary edition. Good to know, especially when the one on sale at Amazon is the 25th anniversary edition.

30th also has DV

They're also selling the old 4K of Glory for less than $15 but the steelbook version of Black Hawk Down with Dolby Vision is also reduced to just under $20.

edit: Contagion is $14.99.

Black Hawk Down's DV re-encode is also significantly better than the 2019 first edition. It's actually staggering how much better it looks, as seen here: https://slow.pics/c/tgEwsqtv.
Highly recommended.

Why are all those older, worse Sony editions still in print?