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I'm very fond of the Image discs' score - I believe that one was a Robert Israel effort. It's very well and carefully pitched to the images, which you'd think is a difficult thing to do given some of the awful silent film soundtracks out there (Kino Nosferatu and Penalty only being the tip of the iceberg).

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the soundtrack'll be the same as on the Eureka disc. Can anybody who has that set comment on the soundtrack?

djali999 wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the soundtrack'll be the same as on the Eureka disc. Can anybody who has that set comment on the soundtrack?

The Eureka score was done by a German composer whose name I don't recall at the moment. Some viewers may find it a bit too sparse in terms of the total number of instruments. The score relies very heavily on a series of jazzy piano riffs, with a violin and xylophone helping to give the sound more "body." Personally, I think it works reasonably well because it reminds me of how some modernist composers like Copland, Stravinsky, etc. were trying to recapture the sound of jazz for small chamber ensembles in the 1920s and 1930s. (I can see how the xylophone could get on some people's nerves after a while, though.) The Eureka DVD contains a short interview with the composer as an extra.

At first I found the Eureka score interesting. The tone is fairly appropriate to the early parts of the film. There's a featurette on the dvd which shows the composer demonstrating some motifs from the score, and how he characterizes them. This all seems to work, in theory, however, the exclusively leitmotivic approach gets excruciatingly repetitive as the film wears on, and my patience for the score wore thin long before it was over, and became a distraction. Perhaps if there were SOME musical development of the ideas, but basically he just repeats them over and over (saves time and money on retakes, I suppose). On top of that, the prominence of the xylophone, both musically and engineering-wise, made me long for an all bagpipe score..... well, not really, but it's a terrible misjudgement for such a small ensemble to feature this non-stop banging! The Robert Israel score doensn't seem so interesting on first listening, but it is really far better in supporting the film, because of the greater variety and flexibility of the material.

This score kind of reminds me of the Oser score for "Michael" on the MoC set, which is another heavy-handed opus that distracts from the film with pseudo 1920's-styled "modernism", but just can't really pull it off, and succeeds only in cheapening the film in subtle but crucial ways. I'm not saying it's incorrect to aim at evoking this musical period, just that's it's a tough thing to bring off.

Robert Israel didn't compose the Image score though, right? Listening to it, it's just a collection of 1910's and 1920's classical music. I seemed to recognize everything.

Is the new stuff the same idea or is it actually original music?

hulot, do you typically find leitmoteif scoring to silent films annoying, or just the specific themes used in this case?

You know, as a composer myself, I might just compose my own score for the film if the new one is so terrible.

This score kind of reminds me of the Oser score for "Michael" on the MoC set, which is another heavy-handed opus that distracts from the film with pseudo 1920's-styled "modernism", but just can't really pull it off, and succeeds only in cheapening the film in subtle but crucial ways. I'm not saying it's incorrect to aim at evoking this musical period, just that's it's a tough thing to bring off.

Couldn't disagree with you more about the Oser score, which I think is remarkable, but we've been through this before -- and seeing as you did the score on the other disc in the set (and the Kino edition), it's not surprising that you have strong views about it I like both scores because they're so different.

Scharphedin2 wrote:Lang's reply is curiously resigned on the matter. He places the decision completely in Leiser's hands, commenting that he wants the film to be presented in the manner most conducive to a contemporary audience, which in Lang's words translates into a 3 1/2 hour edit of the film.

In light of this exhange, the original run time being 4 1/2 hours would sound right, if 3 1/2 hour represents an edit to allow the film to be shown in a single evening.

As far as I can discern, Lotte Eisner's book on Lang was originally published in 1976. In the filmography: "Original legnth: (MABUSE) 95 minutes, (INFERNO) 100 minutes." It is surprising to me that this respected film historian, who enjoyed a very close relationship to Lang for many years, should almost completely omit mention of the re-editing of the film.

In any event I look forward to seeing the 270 minute version.

Example of what you're seeing despite her expertise:

Read a book on any of the sciences, pick up an old encyclopedia filled with "experts" of their day, read on dinosaurs or antiques dating or art history from the 70's or 80's or 90's, choose whatever expert you choose: each one has probably been superceded by the continuing developing of "science" (use that word loosely when discussing art history, Lotte Eisner was just a fan like you & I, albeit I find her taste running quite close to my own & so therefore listen to her recommendations as to what's "good"). New discoveries update the prior understandings of what dinosaurs preceded which, those which in the 80's were described as walking upright are now thought as walking on all fours & vice versa, etc.

The time in which Eisners books were written were rather bleak for silent films. Each year nowadays many films considered lost are rediscovered, complete versions recovered, always updating our understanding of what went on way way back then during the silent era. It was a long time ago even in eisner's age. Remember also that much of the best elements for silent films, especially german ones, were located in vaults residing behind the iron curtain. So were original scripts, censorship records, etc. The thaw and renewed interest in films viz dvd has been a godsend for fans of silent. So much of the specs laid down during the Eisner era have been superceded.

As for Lang's reply viz viewing his films, I have a hunch-- more than likely that is, not like I knew the guy, but I've read (and seen) quite a number of interviews with the guy, and this is what I think was going on there:

Lang was very public minded. His answers to the same questions differed from year to year. He lied about tons of things, baldfaced. His answer to the inquiry recounted above seems to me an attempt to keep his star alive, knowing how passe silents were during his time, knowing that most back then were watching terrible prints, at the wrong speed, which even at normal feature length was tough for the average filmgoer, not to mention at 5 hrs. He was telling the projectionist: Show it in a way where the audience will NOT walk out saying "Never ever ever will I go see a Fritz Lang film again, they're long, old, and boring." He was trying to keep his star alive with a newer, younger generation.

HerrSchreck wrote:Lang was very public minded. His answers to the same questions differed from year to year. He lied about tons of things, baldfaced. His answer to the inquiry recounted above seems to me an attempt to keep his star alive, knowing how passe silents were during his time, knowing that most back then were watching terrible prints, at the wrong speed, which even at normal feature length was tough for the average filmgoer, not to mention at 5 hrs. He was telling the projectionist: Show it in a way where the audience will NOT walk out saying "Never ever ever will I go see a Fritz Lang film again, they're long, old, and boring." He was trying to keep his star alive with a newer, younger generation.

In fact, you do "know" Lang In this lengthy German letter, he briefly touches upon exactly the aspect of film speed, as you mention above.

After making the post above, I skimmed through more sections of this huge tome, and it reports that Lang's relationship cooled towards Leiser later in the sixties. Very likely, he was attempting to keep his star alive w. the German film establishment at the time of the letter...

The thing I find moving, when briefly investigating Lang in this manner, is his humility about his work. He clearly lived for his art, but he also seems to have been very realistic about the business aspect of making films.

On a completely different and trivial note, did you ever hear the story of the demise of Lang's first wife? Lang was extremely private, and I have never heard or seen any mention of this before, but it is documented in some detail in the book.

justeleblanc wrote:Robert Israel didn't compose the Image score though, right? Listening to it, it's just a collection of 1910's and 1920's classical music. I seemed to recognize everything.

Is the new stuff the same idea or is it actually original music?

hulot, do you typically find leitmoteif scoring to silent films annoying, or just the specific themes used in this case?

You know, as a composer myself, I might just compose my own score for the film if the new one is so terrible.

In regards to your first question, the Eureka score is all (or primarily) new stuff. Very little quoting of preexisting songs from 1910s or 1920s, as far as I can tell.

Although I'm not Hulot, I imagine that he's referring to the overall repetitiveness of the score, not the use of leitmotifs per se. And I can see where he's coming from: A 4.5-hour movie with a score based on motifs with very little development does get a bit tiresome after a while. Especially since there's only so much variation you can do when you're relying so heavily on a xylophone!

That being said, I really think it's the kind of score that you're going to have to judge for yourself. Personally, I think it works. It's not great, but it gets the job done. Just beware the xylophone!

Thanks....

I'm sure it will be fine, and truthfully I'll probably break it up into two sittings when I watch it.... so that might solve the lack of development.

.... (just for the hell of it)

Returning home I referred to Eisners THE HAUNTED SCREEN, one of the best books about the German Silent Era in my opinion. Clearly you were referring to her book on Lang--whch I dont have, though I'd murder some of my best friends & with a sweaty forehead strain & huff stuffing their stiff bodies into a noisy woodchipper if I could secure a copy of her bio on Murnau-- but this general survey of the era goes into MABUSE DER SPEILIER at some length, and mentions that the film is indeed to her understanding in two parts, totalliing over four hours. So your quote of her saying the film topped at around 3 is either a misread or an error on her part. It could be her knowledge was updated later on by the time she wrote HAUNTED SCREEN (dont know which came first, Lang bio or this) and never occured to her, or maybe just never got the chance to do a new edition, to update outdated info in further printings.

justeleblanc wrote:I'm sure it will be fine, and truthfully I'll probably break it up into two sittings when I watch it.... so that might solve the lack of development.

You know I always say I'm gonna break Der Spieler up into two sittings, and I never do. The film's too endlessly intoxicating and by the time I've finished The Gambler I'm ready and rearing for Inferno. It's a 'problem' I wish more films had.

Truthfully the Eureka score sounds fine. If that's what's on the DVD (come on Kino, just post the specs already...) I think we're golden.

peerpee wrote:

This score kind of reminds me of the Oser score for "Michael" on the MoC set, which is another heavy-handed opus that distracts from the film with pseudo 1920's-styled "modernism", but just can't really pull it off, and succeeds only in cheapening the film in subtle but crucial ways. I'm not saying it's incorrect to aim at evoking this musical period, just that's it's a tough thing to bring off.

Couldn't disagree with you more about the Oser score, which I think is remarkable, but we've been through this before -- and seeing as you did the score on the other disc in the set (and the Kino edition), it's not surprising that you have strong views about it I like both scores because they're so different.

Oh, I know I'm a broken record on that "score"! Anyhow, I try to keep my involvement out of it, but undoubtedly it affects my opinion. Whereas, my high opinion of the restoration and video presentation of Dr. Mabuse (yay!) and low opinion of the score (boo.......with sympathies for having to write 4 1/2 hours of original music) is arrived at impartially!

Doctor Mabuse - The Gambler [1922] (2004) by Rudolph Klein-Rogge, Lil Dagover, and Fritz Lang (Eureka)

Metropolis -- Two Disc Special Edition [1927] (2005) by Alfred Abel, Gustav Fröhlich, Brigitte Helm, and Rudolf Klein-Rogge (Eureka MOC#8)

Spione [1928] (2005) Rudolph Klein-Rogge (Eureka MOC#9)

M - A Film by Fritz Lang [1931] (2003) by Peter Lorre, Ellen Widmann, Inge Landgut, and Otto Wernicke (Eureka)

The Testament Of Dr Mabuse [1933] (2004) Rudolph Klein-Rogge, Otto Wernicke, Gustav Diessl, and Wera Liessem (Eureka)

You Only Live Once [1937] (2004) Sylvia Sidney, Henry Fonda, Barton MacLane, and Jean Dixon (DVD)

Western Union [1941] (2005) by Robert Young, Randolph Scott, Dean Jagger, and Barton MacLane

Hangmen Also Die [1943] (2006) Brian Donlevy, Walter Brennan, and Dennis O'Keefe

Scarlet Street [1946] (2002) Edward G. Robinson, Joan Bennett, Dan Duryea, and Margaret Lindsay

Rancho Notorious [1952] (2005) by Marlene Dietrich, Arthur Kennedy, Mel Ferrer, and Gloria Henry

The Big Heat [1953] (2006) Glenn Ford, Gloria Grahame, Jocelyn Brando


Eureka are to release Die Nibelungen
Unfortunately no Spinnen

SPIDERS was considered a lost film until Dave Shepard secured a batterd (battered, you can mistake the thing for a 16-reduction at times) 35mm Czech element of both complete parts in the 70's which I dont believe even had intertitles. He got the censor records & sat with Lang & restored the intertitles, but in English. So the Image dvd of the original Kino VHS (on sale right now for 4.99) transfer is all thats available npwadays. Anyone looking to release this in another region is going to have to license from Shepard. Though I wouldnt be surprised if there's a superior copy sitting in Moscow vaults right now as we speak that has been labeled categorized & filed... and duly ignored.

Thanks Schreck, that's the edition that I possess + am I'm grateful for that - a secret society of arch criminals, plots for world domination, a surviving Inca tribe guarding a fabulous treasure! Wonderful stuff!

I'm just saying its a shame this film is not more readily available over here in region 2. Part of the reason for my list was to highlight the appalling availablity of Lang's oeuvre in Britain (just in case someone wanted to rectify the situation!)

HerrSchreck wrote: Though I wouldnt be surprised if there's a superior copy sitting in Moscow vaults right now as we speak that has been labeled categorized & filed... and duly ignored.

Just too plausable

PS - Just think, Lang turned down directing Caligari as he was too busy with The Spiders! [/quote]

Kay Hoog wrote:Thanks Schreck, that's the edition that I possess + am I'm grateful for that - a secret society of arch criminals, plots for world domination, a surviving Inca tribe guarding a fabulous treasure! Wonderful stuff!

I'm just saying its a shame this film is not more readily available over here in region 2. Part of the reason for my list was to highlight the appalling availablity of Lang's oeuvre in Britain (just in case someone wanted to rectify the situation!)

HerrSchreck wrote: Though I wouldnt be surprised if there's a superior copy sitting in Moscow vaults right now as we speak that has been labeled categorized & filed... and duly ignored.

Just too plausable

PS - Just think, Lang turned down directing Caligari as he was too busy with The Spiders!

[/quote]

As to the plotline of the SPIDERS (and your understandably spirited appreciation of it) it was very much a nod to-- as was MABUSE-- to Feulliade's handling of not only FANTOMAS (more mabusian than "spiderish(!?)") but LES VAMPIRES, which were the original SPIDERS... complete with otherworldly monniker, female at the head, etc. Though I'd say Lang of course got far more far flung exotic with his scripts.

I'm not so sure how successful a Lang CALIGARI would have been. Its an interesting question for the ages; we do know he didn't take the hyperexpressionist warping very seriously and even (bogusly, as mentioned above somewhere) took credit for the frame story, generally regarded as the enemy of the expressionist spirit of the story viz taking the expressionist rendering out of Our World and plunking it into a nut's head, which neutralized the device as a 'comment' or 'reflection' of the oppressions of daily life. Mayer & Janowitz despised the frame story. Also this film was such a classic group effort-- like a Beatles tune, worthy contributions turned in by art directors, actors, camerman, along with Veine on an equal plane-- that Lang's dominant personality certainly would have jumbled the recipe. What the end product woulda been is definitely anyone's guess, and as fun to speculate on as Ripper Suspects (well, not really... that's perhaps the most torturous speculative pasttime inna world, and I'm not even a Brit.)

It seemed to me that this thread could use some consolidation of information, so here's a list of Lang films in chronological order. Let's ty and note the BEST available home video versions of each of the films.

Die Pest in Florenz (1919)
Halbblut (1919)
Der Herr der Liebe (1919)
Harakiri (1919)
Spiders (1919-1920) - Image
Das wandernde Bild (1920)
Vier um die Frauen (1920)
Der müde Tod (1921) - Image (could use restoration/new transfer)
Dr. Mabuse, the Gambler (1922) - Eureka R2
Die Nibelungen (1924) - wait for Masters of Cinema (until then: Kino)
Metropolis (1927) - Masters of Cinema or Transit R2
Spione (1928) - Masters of Cinema
Woman in the Moon (1929) - Kino (though w/out German intertitles)
M (1931) - Criterion or Eureka
The Testament of Dr. Mabuse (1933) - Criterion
Liliom (1934) - Extra on R2's Carousel disc
Fury (1936) - Warner
You Only Live Once (1937) - Cinema Club R2 & &
You and Me (1938)
The Return of Frank James (1940) - wait for Fox disc
Western Union (1941)
Man Hunt (1941)
Confirm or Deny (1941)
Moontide (1942)
Hangmen Also Die (1943)
Ministry of Fear (1944)
The Woman in the Window (1945)
Scarlet Street (1945) - Kino
Cloak and Dagger (1946)
Secret Beyond the Door... (1948) - wait for Paramount disc
House by the River (1950) - Kino
American Guerrilla in the Philippines (1950)
Rancho Notorious (1952)
Clash by Night (1952) - Warner
The Blue Gardenia (1953)
The Big Heat (1953)
Human Desire (1954)
Moonfleet (1955)
While the City Sleeps (1956)
Beyond a Reasonable Doubt (1956)
Journey to the Lost City (1959)
The Indian Epic (1959) - Fantoma
1000 Eyes of Dr. Mabuse (1960) - Image

Spiders - Image
Mude Tod - Image
Liliom - Extra on R2's Carousel disc
The Return of Frank James - will be Fox
Clash by Night - Warner
Scarlet Street - Kino
House by the River - Kino
Secret Beyond the Door - will be Paramount
1000 Eyes - Image

It's hard to imagine the Indian Epic looking better than the Fantoma set: a stupendous transfer.

zedz wrote:It's hard to imagine the Indian Epic looking better than the Fantoma set: a stupendous transfer.

A stunning set delivered by Fantoma... perhaps the most beautiful dvd edition of an old technicolor film: soaring bitrates, totally progressive. Pure cornball fun, I love that film. As it's alleged to be off of Fantoma's 'active' list, grab it while you still can. Well worth it.

DER MUDE TOD has a better print sitting out there waiting in FWMS-- you can see it in THE METROPOLIS CASE doc. No optical soundtrack cropping on the left edge, and obviously a nitrate, and in very good condition-- better detail & contrast than the blown out Shepard "fine grain".

Just as an addition:

"Nibelungen" and "Woman in the Moon" are both available as R2 with GERMAN titles from the Spanish divisared label. Same restaurations as Kino, I suppose. Pick them up at www.dvdgo.com. Good, though not exceptional quality in both cases.

justeleblanc wrote:Liliom - Extra on R2's Carousel disc

Can somebody speak to the quality and subtitle-situation of this? I can't find any reviews that evaluate Liliom, but anything has to be better than the terrible Kino edition. (Easily one of their worst missteps ever!)

Supposedly it's a big improvement on the Kino edition. Someone posted a few caps here.

Many, many thanks for that, Miguel. Looks like I'm gonna have to put together a list of German DVDs I want so as to minimize those enormous shipping rates.

Ditto. Not only did my LILIOM make me retch when putting it on my tv, but the facking thing had a dimple in it's physical surface caused it to stop playing right when the asshole gets up to heaven to talk the whole thing out with the angels & saints. I spit the disc back at the retailer for store credit, not even wanting to know what happened to LILIOM in the end with a new disc, the transfer was so godawful.