criterionforum.org

Done, thanks.

I’ve received my copy of the Army of Shadows UHD and after some hesitation I’m glad I did because it’s the best version of the film despite the involvement of Ritrovata. I have to mention straight away that the upgrade in resolution isn’t as striking as some may expect particularly when coming from the fine Criterion BD. I’ve observed the same with Melville’s Le Samouraï and Pathé’s new 4K restoration. It appears that Melville was never somebody to polish his films and instead focused on other things more. He was also a resourceful director, mostly working in his own studio until it burned down.

The colors: Not as problematic as I thought but only in 4K HDR! This is important as the HDR/DV grade creates a much more nuanced image that is overall rather subdued. The palette in HDR is closer to the Criterion BD than the new remastered SC BD. The new BD isn’t recommended due to the stronger appearance of the Ritrovata tint as well as occasionally heavy color noise in brighter areas that are most affected by the tint. This isn’t an issue in 4K. I also think the darker scenes are better graded on the 4K than the Criterion (which also struggles a bit with encoding there).

However, and this is just annoying, they had to employ grain management for whatever reason. Most viewers will probably not notice anything but it’s there and *sometimes* not too subtle. Nothing horrible, nothing unwatchable - far from it - but they didn’t leave the image alone when they should have. It’s always perplexing to see restoration houses and labels invest extra money and effort into this and especially when grain is still visible afterwards. James CAImeron at least filtered it all out.

Melville’s opticals are rough-looking anyway but they received a subtle extra dose of DNR.

The encode is not exclusively to blame for this as it "only" drops into the 30s and not down to single digits á la Le cercle rouge. Otherwise, during OCN shots, encoding is very good. SC and / or Ritrovata thankfully learned from the criticism.

SC’s audio (2.0 mono) is worse than the Criterion. This is simply me going by ear and I think the difference is quite heavy. Unfortunately Blah-ray never made a post, so hopefully someone else can chime in here.

For that and them encoding the opticals at higher bitrates, I’d like to see what Criterion would do with the restoration. Until then, a solid upgrade with caveats for audio and mild grain management.

nicolas wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:17 pm I’ve received my copy of the Army of Shadows UHD and after some hesitation I’m glad I did because it’s the best version of the film despite the involvement of Ritrovata. I have to mention straight away that the upgrade in resolution isn’t as striking as some may expect particularly when coming from the fine Criterion BD. I’ve observed the same with Melville’s Le Samouraï and Pathé’s new 4K restoration. It appears that Melville was never somebody to polish his films and instead focused on other things more. He was also a resourceful director, mostly working in his own studio until it burned down.

The colors: Not as problematic as I thought but only in 4K HDR! This is important as the HDR/DV grade creates a much more nuanced image that is overall rather subdued. The palette in HDR is closer to the Criterion BD than the new remastered SC BD. The new BD isn’t recommended due to the stronger appearance of the Ritrovata tint as well as occasionally heavy color noise in brighter areas that are most affected by the tint. This isn’t an issue in 4K. I also think the darker scenes are better graded on the 4K than the Criterion (which also struggles a bit with encoding there).

However, and this is just annoying, they had to employ grain management for whatever reason. Most viewers will probably not notice anything but it’s there and *sometimes* not too subtle. Nothing horrible, nothing unwatchable - far from it - but they didn’t leave the image alone when they should have. It’s always perplexing to see restoration houses and labels invest extra money and effort into this and especially when grain is still visible afterwards. James CAImeron at least filtered it all out.

Melville’s opticals are rough-looking anyway but they received a subtle extra dose of DNR.

The encode is not exclusively to blame for this as it "only" drops into the 30s and not down to single digits á la Le cercle rouge. Otherwise, during OCN shots, encoding is very good. SC and / or Ritrovata thankfully learned from the criticism.

SC’s audio (2.0 mono) is worse than the Criterion. This is simply me going by ear and I think the difference is quite heavy. Unfortunately Blah-ray never made a post, so hopefully someone else can chime in here.

For that and them encoding the opticals at higher bitrates, I’d like to see what Criterion would do with the restoration. Until then, a solid upgrade with caveats for audio and mild grain management.

Another filtered track like Le Samouraï got? Disappointing. Le Cercle Rouge's audio on the 4Ks is pretty good - better than all previous releases, so I was hoping it would be more like that. The Criterion BD has some extra filtering not present on the 2013 StudioCanal BD, which I believe has the best audio track.

M-A wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:16 pm

nicolas wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:17 pm I’ve received my copy of the Army of Shadows UHD and after some hesitation I’m glad I did because it’s the best version of the film despite the involvement of Ritrovata. I have to mention straight away that the upgrade in resolution isn’t as striking as some may expect particularly when coming from the fine Criterion BD. I’ve observed the same with Melville’s Le Samouraï and Pathé’s new 4K restoration. It appears that Melville was never somebody to polish his films and instead focused on other things more. He was also a resourceful director, mostly working in his own studio until it burned down.

The colors: Not as problematic as I thought but only in 4K HDR! This is important as the HDR/DV grade creates a much more nuanced image that is overall rather subdued. The palette in HDR is closer to the Criterion BD than the new remastered SC BD. The new BD isn’t recommended due to the stronger appearance of the Ritrovata tint as well as occasionally heavy color noise in brighter areas that are most affected by the tint. This isn’t an issue in 4K. I also think the darker scenes are better graded on the 4K than the Criterion (which also struggles a bit with encoding there).

However, and this is just annoying, they had to employ grain management for whatever reason. Most viewers will probably not notice anything but it’s there and *sometimes* not too subtle. Nothing horrible, nothing unwatchable - far from it - but they didn’t leave the image alone when they should have. It’s always perplexing to see restoration houses and labels invest extra money and effort into this and especially when grain is still visible afterwards. James CAImeron at least filtered it all out.

Melville’s opticals are rough-looking anyway but they received a subtle extra dose of DNR.

The encode is not exclusively to blame for this as it "only" drops into the 30s and not down to single digits á la Le cercle rouge. Otherwise, during OCN shots, encoding is very good. SC and / or Ritrovata thankfully learned from the criticism.

SC’s audio (2.0 mono) is worse than the Criterion. This is simply me going by ear and I think the difference is quite heavy. Unfortunately Blah-ray never made a post, so hopefully someone else can chime in here.

For that and them encoding the opticals at higher bitrates, I’d like to see what Criterion would do with the restoration. Until then, a solid upgrade with caveats for audio and mild grain management.

Another filtered track like Le Samouraï got? Disappointing. Le Cercle Rouge's audio on the 4Ks is pretty good - better than all previous releases, so I was hoping it would be more like that. The Criterion BD has some extra filtering not present on the 2013 StudioCanal BD, which I believe has the best audio track.

Just as you mentioned the 2013 SC BD I remembered that I have it in the Melville UK box set from 2017. I’ve never watched that BD but I’m sure this is the same 2013 disc. The differences in quality is striking. It sounds almost as if they’d recorded the dialogue today. The UHD track is heavily filtered in comparison. They could have simply ported that track over. This is Paramount-level stupidity. Still, the improvements in PQ are remarkable despite the grain management.

I have Army of Shadows SC disc (from the UK boxset), and am planning to buy the new release. If so and if I find the time, I'll rip the 2 tracks and compare the spectrals through spek.

Edit on 6/19/24 regarding Typhoon Club: andyli and nicholas have confirmed that too much DNR was applied at the restoration stage, giving the film a digital look. Cinema Guild were given a compromised product but it is still the best looking release of the film at this time.

Robocop 2 (Shout)

Still haven't seen any feedback on the Bad Lieutenant audio or reliable word on the 4K of Cry Baby (though with it being a Universal title, it might come from Arrow in the UK).

Finch wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:23 pm Typhoon Club (Cinema Guild)
Robocop 2 (Shout)

Still haven't seen any feedback on the Bad Lieutenant audio or reliable word on the 4K of Cry Baby (though with it being a Universal title, it might come from Arrow in the UK).

Great to hear that Typhoon Club is excellent. I haven’t read anything on the UHD so far, hopefully it sells well for CG.

nicolas wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 6:59 pmGreat to hear that Typhoon Club is excellent. I haven’t read anything on the UHD so far, hopefully it sells well for CG.

Haven't checked out the Typhoon Club BluRay yet, but the 4k/UHD looked great even when downscaled for our old plasma TV.

Finch wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:23 pm Typhoon Club (Cinema Guild)

Why is this considered reference quality?

Spoiler

Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate with these random shots, andyli. The point is that the 4K restoration is an immense improvement over any previous versions (apparently including -- according to Kiyoshio Kurosawa -- the initial release prints). It is almost certain that it would not be possible to create a much better version of this film.

Michael Kerpan wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:35 pm Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate with these random shots, andyli. The point is that the 4K restoration is an immense improvement over any previous versions (apparently including -- according to Kiyoshio Kurosawa -- the initial release prints). It is almost certain that it would not be possible to create a much better version of this film.

Mr. Kerpan, how do you know that these are randomly picked? I show these shots because they demonstrate a lack of film grain in reasonably well lit scenes shot in 35mm film stock. I know screenshots are not supposed to be fully representative of a transfer, but If you bother to look at full-resolution screenshots from any entry in that reference quality category, they tend to showcase a healthy amount of grain, nothing like those in CG's transfer.

Okay. My take is that the restoration itself is DNR'ed (at least for certain scenes more heavily than others), and Third Window's bad presentation is not entirely due to a bad encode. Cinema Guild did what they COULD with the transfer but there are issues beyond their capability to resolve. the restorer or rights holder is to blame for their hate of grain/film texture. And yes, with film elements as new as from the 80s, it is very likely a much better version of this film can be created in the future, if they learn to keep their hands off the film-scrubbing knobs.

Mr. Kerpan, I agree that this release is better than all previous releases. I'm just pointing out that there are issues. And I have reasons to suspect that they won't go away when the image starts to run at 24 frames per second.

Alas, at the age of 72 (in a week or so) I am not likely to ever see a better presentation. And I am just immensely grateful to have something that looks MUCH more than "presentable" -- enough so that I have a much higher appreciation of the movie than I did previously.

Finch wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:23 pm Typhoon Club (Cinema Guild)
Robocop 2 (Shout)

Still haven't seen any feedback on the Bad Lieutenant audio or reliable word on the 4K of Cry Baby (though with it being a Universal title, it might come from Arrow in the UK).

The Bad Lieutenant 2.0 is a downmix according to asacmurr on the other forum. He also reviewed the PQ.

Here are some caps, also courtesy of a poster over there: https://slow.pics/c/m5aW2ubc

Hopefully the Dolby Vision layer fixes some of these shots but it seems the encode could’ve been much worse (Fear and Desire). I should have my copy on Thursday at the latest and I’m looking forward to it.

andyli wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 2:02 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote: Mon Jun 10, 2024 1:35 pm Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate with these random shots, andyli. The point is that the 4K restoration is an immense improvement over any previous versions (apparently including -- according to Kiyoshio Kurosawa -- the initial release prints). It is almost certain that it would not be possible to create a much better version of this film.

I show these shots because they demonstrate a lack of film grain in reasonably well lit scenes shot in 35mm film stock. I know screenshots are not supposed to be fully representative of a transfer, but If you bother to look at full-resolution screenshots from any entry in that reference quality category, they tend to showcase a healthy amount of grain, nothing like those in CG's transfer.

If most of the transfer looks like this, it's not very good looking for a shot-on-35mm movie restored in 4K (from the OCN, IIRC). Providing an improvement, ie being better in a comparative fashion, isn't enough because it's relative. It should be good and natural looking and not looking filtered intrinsequially, ie in an absolute fashion.

Ironically, the dark/night scenes look grainier (at least in screenshots) and therefore less processed. Or is it because they have more grains to begin with so with even handed noise reduction there are simply more leftover in those scenes?

Vinegar Syndrome’s Invasion U.S.A. UHD is a winner: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=60

Caps of the former Shout BD aren’t bad either, so all things considered it’s probably a solid upgrade. Not much feedback yet on Navy Seals, the other VS release, but it’s probably in the same vein.

The Case of the Bloody Iris is the first release by new label Celluloid Dreams and the other forum’s thread is 17 pages long but still without a consensus ](*,) . Many are pleased yet the BR.com review mentions occasional encoding issues.

Invasion USA added to the blue tier. Shifted The Witch (Second Sight) there too because while it is the best version of the film, it's not a spectacular upgrade over the Blu-Rays.

Both Matinee and La Femme Nikita look very good to me, though the latter film's impression might be skewed since I've only ever seen shoddy DVD copies

Andreas on the other forum had screens of Nikita (Sony). Going to add that and Matinee to the blue tier as both had strong BDs, particularly the former.

Nikita also has a Studiocanal release coming in Germany and UK with new extras unlike the Sony. Hopefully the encoding turns out just as good.

The Eagle Beau is Afraid 4K also looks and sounds just wonderful. It's a film that benefits from English subs, but this will have to do for now

do we have anything on Peeping Tom Criterion v. Studiocanal? the CC got top marks but just wanna be sure it's a safe buy over the SC disc. Criterion technically have the more "complete" package so if the transfer just comes down to marginal comparisons, I'll probably pick up their disc (even though I originally said I wouldn't!)

I haven't seen any comparisons, ryan, but since Chris hadn't spotted any encoding issues in his review of the Criterion, its probably a tie between the two for video and audio. I prefer the art work for the Criterion but not enough to buy a second copy of the film.

therewillbeblus wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:56 pm The Eagle Beau is Afraid 4K also looks and sounds just wonderful. It's a film that benefits from English subs, but this will have to do for now

I haven't seen it yet, so why is that?

MichaelB wrote: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:44 am

therewillbeblus wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:56 pm The Eagle Beau is Afraid 4K also looks and sounds just wonderful. It's a film that benefits from English subs, but this will have to do for now

I haven't seen it yet, so why is that?

Phoenix’s character mumbles throughout, and (I’ll try to say this in a way that doesn’t spoil anything) certain characters say things quietly, or they’re deliberately edited/down-pitched low because they’re meant to fly just under the radar of our awareness but become significant upon revisits. Lots of Easter eggs buried both visually and with sound

Having said all that, it’s not that bad and I could still hear everyone clearly with this Atmos track, but a) many find Phoenix’s mumbling harder to decipher than I do in general (like the whole Nolan/music/dialogue debate I don’t relate to), and b) who knows what other Easter eggs exist that subs could reveal