1970s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 2)

[zedz]

Update - voting is over, but I've got twelve last-minute lists to add in, which might take a little while. Hope to have results posted tomorrow. This late influx also means that all final positions are up for grabs - at last count, there were less than 100 points separating the top 10 titles, and there was a fleet of other titles (15-20) all very close behind.

[domino harvey]

I've got my fingers crossed for Shaft In Africa pull off an upset

[vivahawks]

but The Fate of Lee Khan, The Valiant Ones, and Raining in the Mountain are all criminally undersung, entertaining, and innovative films.

Where did you see these?

There's a French DVD of Raining in the Mountain floating around somewhere. My university also had a video copy of The Valiant Ones, and I saw Lee Khan from an atrocious VHS source (which might be why I liked it least). These are endlessly brilliant and pleasurable movies, and I wish a Criterion or MoC would really give them the royal treatment they deserve. I even like Raining and Valiant Ones more than A Touch of Zen, though Dragon Inn is my favorite Hu overall.

For the rest of the 70s, too bad I just found copies of Travelling Players and Kings of the Road. Obviously too late to add to my list now, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing them...

[Mise En Scene]

but The Fate of Lee Khan, The Valiant Ones, and Raining in the Mountain are all criminally undersung, entertaining, and innovative films.

Where did you see these?

There's a French DVD of Raining in the Mountain floating around somewhere.

Thanks! I didn't know about this. Are you talking about the Films sans frontiere DVD?

My university also had a video copy of The Valiant Ones, and I saw Lee Khan from an atrocious VHS source (which might be why I liked it least).

I'll try to track down old VHS tapes of these.

These are endlessly brilliant and pleasurable movies, and I wish a Criterion or MoC would really give them the royal treatment they deserve.

Bordwell's analysis and enthusiasm (as well as yours) for Hu's work has got me fiending to see more.

The Dragon Gate Inn DVD on YesAsia has no English subs. Damn.

I even like Raining and Valiant Ones more than A Touch of Zen, though Dragon Inn is my favorite Hu overall.

I've only seen A Touch of Zen and Come Drink With Me and my favorite is the former. I marvel at the editing which should go without saying. I loved the blotches of light in the whip pans near the end of Come Drink With Me. Sometime this week or next, I'll see Legend of the Mountain and Painted Skin.

Sad to hear Bey Logan mention the difficulty obtaining the rights to Hu's Taiwan productions or something like that. Hopefully Dragon Dynasty will eventually get them.

[vivahawks]

There's a French DVD of Raining in the Mountain floating around somewhere.

Thanks! I didn't know about this. Are you talking about the Films sans frontiere DVD?

Yes. Good luck finding tapes of the others! I think The Valiant Ones I saw was subtitled but Lee Khan may not have been. (I speak enough Mandarin to get by--also very helpful when it comes to early Hou. And potentially for dealing with a billion people, but we all know it's really about the movies. )

Bordwell's analysis and enthusiasm (as well as yours) for Hu's work has got me fiending to see more.

The Dragon Gate Inn DVD on YesAsia has no English subs. Damn.

I even like Raining and Valiant Ones more than A Touch of Zen, though Dragon Inn is my favorite Hu overall.

I've only seen A Touch of Zen and Come Drink With Me and my favorite is the former. I marvel at the editing which should go without saying. I loved the blotches of light in the whip pans near the end of Come Drink With Me. Sometime this week or next, I'll see Legend of the Mountain and Painted Skin.

Sad to hear Bey Logan mention the difficulty obtaining the rights to Hu's Taiwan productions or something like that. Hopefully Dragon Dynasty will eventually get them.

Yeah, the 60s-70s work is so uniformly excellent in my eyes that picking favorites is a matter of whim. Hopefully the release of Come Drink with Me will lead to more R1 Hu. And please post your thoughts about Legend and Painted Skin if you get the chance! There's so little information (in English anyways) about Hu, and especially about his later work.

[zedz]

The 1970s List

Here we go. No great surprises in the upper reaches, with five directors accounting for 14 of the top 23 films, but things get a little more interesting further down (as usual).

1. Chinatown (Polanski) 651
2. The Spirit of the Beehive (Erice) 553
3. Mirror (Tarkovsky) 523
4. Barry Lyndon (Kubrick) 502
5. Celine and Julie Go Boating (Rivette) 493
6. Days of Heaven (Malick) 474
7. The Godfather (Coppola) 452
8. McCabe & Mrs Miller (Altman) 440
9. The Conformist (Bertolucci) 431
10. The Passenger (Antonioni) 422
11. Nashville (Altman) 415
12. Aguirre, the Wrath of God (Herzog) 411
13. Badlands (Malick) 407
14. The Long Goodbye (Altman) 406
15. The Godfather Part II (Coppola) 390
16. Stalker (Tarkovsky) 387
17. Taxi Driver (Scorsese) 383
18. Manhattan (Allen) 375
19. Apocalypse Now (Coppola) 366
20. The Conversation (Coppola) 365
21. The Marriage of Maria Braun (Fassbinder)
22. Annie Hall (Allen)
23. Solaris (Tarkovsky)
24. The Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie (Bunuel)
25. Don't Look Now (Roeg)
26. Eraserhead (Lynch)
27. That Obscure Object of Desire (Bunuel)
28. Straw Dogs (Peckinpah)
29= 3 Women (Altman)
29= A Clockwork Orange (Kubrick)
31= Cries and Whispers (Bergman)
31= A Woman under the Influence (Cassavetes)
33. Claire's Knee (Rohmer)
34. The Last Picture Show (Bogdanovich)
35. Killer of Sheep (Burnett)
36. The Mother and the Whore (Eustache)
37. Vengeance Is Mine (Imamura)
38. Walkabout (Roeg)
39. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (Peckinpah)
40. Mean Streets (Scorsese)
41. The Killing of a Chinese Bookie (Cassavetes)
42. Le Cercle rouge (Melville)
43. Jeanne Dielman. . . (Akerman)
44. Every Man for Himself and God Against All (Herzog)
45. F for Fake (Welles)
46. Fear Eats the Soul (Fassbinder)
47. Alien (Scott)
48. Last Tango in Paris (Bertolucci)
49. Performance (Cammell / Roeg)
50. Scenes from a Marriage (Bergman)
51. The Exorcist (Friedkin)
52. In a Year with 13 Moons (Fassbinder)
53. Edvard Munch (Watkins)
54. Eros Plus Massacre (Yoshida)
55. Amarcord (Fellini)
56. Love (Makk)
57. The Travelling Players (Angelopoulos)
58. The Phantom of Liberty (Bunuel)
59. Mujo (Jissoji)
60= The Deer Hunter (Cimino)
60= The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (Hooper)
62. Two-Lane Blacktop (Hellman)
63. The Tenant (Polanski)
64. Cria cuervos (Saura)
65. Hypothesis of the Stolen Painting (Ruiz)
66. Paper Moon (Bogdanovich)
67. Lancelot du lac (Bresson)
68. All the President's Men (Pakula)
69. The Man who Fell to Earth (Roeg)
70. Network (Lumet)
71= Fox and his Friends (Fassbinder)
71= Stroszek (Herzog)
73. Halloween (Carpenter)
74. The Man who Left his Will on Film (Oshima)
75. Picnic at Hanging Rock (Weir)
76. The Devil, Probably (Bresson)
77. Suspiria (Argento)
78= The Act of Seeing with One's Own Eyes (Brakhage)
78= Harold and Maude (Ashby)
80. Nosferatu (Herzog)
81= The French Connection (Friedkin)
81= Tristana (Bunual)
83. WR:Mysteries of the Organism (Makavejev)
84. Investigation of a Citizen above Suspicion (Petri)
85. The Ceremony (Oshima)
86. Cockfighter (Hellman)
87= All That Jazz (Fosse)
87= Four Nights of a Dreamer (Bresson)
89. Dog Day Afternoon (Lumet)
90= Carnal Knowledge (Nichols)
90= Hearts and Minds (Davis)
92. O Lucky Man! (Anderson)
93= Punishment Park (Watkins)
93= Love in the Afternoon (Rohmer)
95. Grey Gardens (Maysles et al.)
96= Carrie (De Palma)
96= The Parallax View (Pakula)
98. The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant (Fassbinder)
99. Death in Venice (Visconti)
100= Effi Briest (Fassbinder)
100= Day for Night (Truffaut)

29 lists were received (is that a record?), nominating 494 different films. 231 of those got more than one vote and qualified for the final list(s). The USA dominated the voting overwhelmingly, accounting for 206 of the nominated films.

Directorwise, Altman was kingpin, attracting 1815 votes in total for 11 different films (but still no love for Quintet?). These were the top ten:
Altman (1815, 11 films)
Coppola (1573, 4 films)
Fassbinder (1370, 13 films)
Tarkovsky (1260, 3 films)
Herzog (1096, 10 films)
Bunuel (954)
Allen (937)
Polanski (901)
Malick (881)
Kubrick (800)

Also-rans list tomorrow.

[domino harvey]

29/50 of my list made it. Thank God the Spirit of the Beehive wasn't number one. I also had 5/10 of the top ten on my list, which has to be a record for me and these lists-- you guys finally got it righter!
Some shocking exclusions though: No Tout Va Bien!, no Frenzy, no Little Murders and just barely any the Parallax View. Glad to see Paper Moon chart though.

[HerrSchreck]

Thank God the Spirit of the Beehive wasn't number one.

Is that because you do or don't like it. Personally I'm glad that Chinatown got #1 because I'm not all that crazy about the film, and being #1 sucks a certain cachet from a film I love-- like seeing your favorite dive watering hole get invaded & renovated by a buncha redheaded stockbrokers (apologies in advance to any stockbrokers on the board, but not if they're redheaded haw haw haw)..

God I adore the Erice... just hate that shot of Franky at the end.

[souvenir]

Hey I had 5/10 also there. Thanks again zedz for compiling everything. Not only am I surprised to see Chinatown at number one, but the margin is staggering. I wonder how many people actually put it at the top or if it was more of a situation where it did well on lots of lists.

[domino harvey]

I don't like the Spirit of the Beehive at all and I frankly feel very alone in this opinion, not just on the board either but with anyone I know who's seen the movie-- so it was a sincere sigh of relief. I'm genuinely surprised that Chinatown made it to number one, but it was in my Top 20 and I welcome it to the Number One spot more than I would Spirit or the winner from last time, Annie Hall.

[Cold Bishop]

30/50, 5/10

Patiently awaiting the also-rans

[yoshimori]

The ugly and tedious The Passenger is number 10, but no Zabriskie Point? Shame, shame!

[domino harvey]

Michael Medved told me not to vote for it

[Zazou dans le Metro]

I don't like the Spirit of the Beehive at all and I frankly feel very alone in this opinion, not just on the board either but with anyone I know who's seen the movie

The cynic in me has a mild hackles rising reaction to the endless shots of the Hallmark greetings cards saucer like limpid eyes of the little girl but I'd be interested to know if you have more fundamental reasons for your dislike of this film.

Did you see Erice's short for the Trumpet (or was it Cello) portfolio film? I thought it was worth the price of entrance alone.

On a personal note my top 3 Alfredo Garcia/Kaspar Hauser/Day for Night fared quite badly but then I got 6 /10 for the rest.

My Fassbinder vote went for Despair. I just love how camp Bogarde gets,rivalling his performance in Providence.

I'd like to have seen Tale of Tales and Hitler, a film from Germany in there but they seem to have fallen by the wayside.

Oh yes..Did no-one else vote for Face to Face?

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

My Fassbinder vote went for Despair. I just love how camp Bogarde gets,rivalling his performance in Providence.

This is indeed quite a gigglefest for me. I particularly like the scene where Bogarde has to proclaim 'I'm coming out'. Wonder if he was squirming during that?

[tojoed]

With all those votes for Robert Altman, it was a shame that California Split didn't get in. But as I didn't vote, I can't complain.

[Gropius]

The ugly and tedious The Passenger is number 10, but no Zabriskie Point? Shame, shame!

Hey! The Passenger was in my number one spot. I can see how it might theoretically be found tedious, but certainly not ugly. I like Zabriskie also, but it gets too silly at points.

As for the final list, disappointed about the lack of 'experimental' titles on there, but at least The Act of Seeing... and Jeanne Dielman made it. I was surprised O Lucky Man! charted so lowly, since I put it at number two (I suppose it was unavailable on disc until recently).

[GringoTex]

My big discovery this time around was 70s Chabrol, so I'm disappointed none of his made it, although you can't really expect films with no R1 dvd release to make the list.

However, I can take the forum to task over picking Truffaut's second worst film of the 70s as his sole entry. I prefer his 70s output to his 60s, and Bed and Board, Two English Girls, The Story of Adele H, Small Change and The Green Room are all spectacular films. Day for Night just creaks with age.

I'm obviously still in the minority in preferring Herzog's docs to his fiction films. Land of Silence and Darkness was my sole Herzog entry.

BUT HOW ABOUT THAT COCKFIGHTER!!!!!! *chest bumps zedz*

As for the final list, disappointed about the lack of 'experimental' titles on there

There's such a lack of critical consensus on 70s experimental films, that I'm even surprised the Brakhage made it.

[Zazou dans le Metro]

Day for Night just creaks with age.

Maybe. Maybe I creak too. But seeing it as film student and falling in love with the IDEA of film making lets that nostalgia lubricant ease those tired old joints.

Don't tell me that Delarue's music doesn't do it for you in the crane shot, please>

[HerrSchreck]

As for the final list, disappointed about the lack of 'experimental' titles on there

There's such a lack of critical consensus on 70s experimental films, that I'm even surprised the Brakhage made it.

I actually didn't want to be a party poop-- especially since I didnt get a list in this time-- but I was going to say this list lacked a certain eclecticism that other earlier-decade lists have to some degree had.

There's some good stuff in there, don't get me wrong. But I''ll be far more interested to see the also rans.

And despite it's modest merits, I just can't believe Chinatown beat out material like The Mirror, STalker, hell even Taxi Driver and The Godfather (if you want to talk in mass market Hollywood). Despite some great moments, (John Huston!) the film is another one of those films that is just never going to light my fire like it does for so many people. A la Polanski "Pop", I'm more of a Rosemary's Baby man (prev decade, I know).

[Dylan]

Yes, this is one of our most interesting lists. I haven't even seen forty-eight of these and most of the others I didn't vote for. It's very intriguing, though, and Chinatown (a perfect film) is a surprising #1.

The most surprising omission, I suppose, is Cabaret.

Since it barely broke in at #90, my placement of Carnal Knowledge as #2 clearly provided some leverage. Who else voted for it?

No Interiors, of course (my #6).

I look forward to seeing this Celine and Julie whenever New Yorker releases their DVD (unless it screen theatrically in Seattle - I have no access to multi-region players).

[Michael]

Very interesting list. This is making me want to revaluate Chinatown. No love for Bava? Lisa and the Devil, people?

If Celine and Julie made #1, I'd be still happy but for #1, I voted Cria Cuervos, which I think is better than Spirit of the Beehive.

[sidehacker]

Pretty disappointing. It doesn't look like anything in my top 5 made it. Oh well...

[DeVaca]

Ali: Fear Eats the Soul didn't rank this time after ranking at 16 the last time around.

Glad Network made it in.

[Michael]

Ali: Fear Eats the Soul didn't rank this time after ranking at 16 the last time around.

Glad Network made it in.

It's ranked #46 this time.