Once Upon a Time in the West (Sergio Leone, 1968)

[Stefan Andersson]

Comment about the Eagle UHD:
"Has it been mentioned that the Italian language version has the Finale music right to the end?"
Source: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 16&page=19 - post by ricki450

[Walter Kurtz]

I remember my grandpappy not only loving the movie but raving about the ending. I too would rave about the (fan-constructed) ending with Claudia's Theme going to the end and the Once... title crawling down from the top and framing the exit of Bronson and Robards. That's 105 on a scale of 0-100. Why anyone would ever gump up the ending with the corny Robards music and the spinning Once title is beyond belief. A collective moment of insanity.

[Stefan Andersson]

[quote="Stefan Andersson" post_id=831410 time=1738009955 user_id=12511]
Comment about the Eagle UHD:
"Has it been mentioned that the Italian language version has the Finale music right to the end?"
Source: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... 16&page=19 - post by ricki450

Edit/update: to me, the quote above reads as a question, though at a cursory glance it might be understood as a confirmation that the Italian language version conforms to the fan-reconstructed ending. Thought I´d mention that it could be read two ways.

[hanshotfirst1138]

I’d give my teeth if Arrow could get this like they did the Dollars trilogy. I guess we can dream.

[Lighthouse]

The result of the new 4k remaster from 2024, used for the UHD discs and the latest Blu Rays of Once Upon a Time in the West:

It is still not the exact theatrical version as released in 1968, it is still the slightly faulty Paramount version created in 1984, but now in the slightly longer 2011 restoration of the Film Foundation overviewed by Martin Scorsese.

The differences to the theatrical version:

1. The first scene is still shorter, with only 14 sec added by the Film Foundation there are still 56 sec missing.
2. The so called "Rising scene" directly after the train station shoot-out is still in.
3. The closing music is still wrong by using the Cheyenne theme instead of the complete track called "Finale".

The Italian Blu, which uses the same master, has at least the correct closing music.

I still have no idea why such an important film can't be done properly.
That Paramount is not even able to fix the obviously wrong closing music is a bummer.
And that Rising scenes still destroys one of the great narrative ideas of the film.

Funnily it's the same for The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, the original theatrical version from 1966 was never released on DVD or Blu in it's exact form.

[JamesF]

Someone's been reading the other board recently

Anyway, goes without saying I'd leap at the chance to do this one, even if it just meant making subtle improvements on the existing 4K master (including a branching option for "Harmonica rises" and fixing the end music), but just to clear - Arrow don't have a deal for this film right now. Hopefully in a few years Paramount will be more willing to let it go. I did a fan edit putting the additional scenes from the Italian DVD back in recently, and well, they certainly proved that you can have too much of a good thing...

[Lighthouse]

Only the additional scenes from the opening, or all additional scenes from the long 177 min version?

[JamesF]

A few addendums to the information posted in this thread:

A user recently posted information on the Spaghetti Westerns forum in 2023 confirming that the 144-minute version was the one submitted to the BBFC in 1969, meaning the 167-min runtime listed on the BBFC's website for that submission is an erroneous duplication of the 1982 submission.

I myself recently bought the British pre-cert VHS (released in April 1983, according to this site) and can confirm that other than featuring the correct Paramount logo at the start, it has all the same 'errors' as all subsequent home video editions, including "Cheyenne's Theme" interrupting the main theme midway through the ending. Assuming it is telecined from the 1982 print (and assuming Paramount had created a new internegative around that time with the reinstated material and the errors baked in), this is presumably when we can date these changes back to, not 1984 as commonly thought.

A Dallas TV airing from 1983 turned up on archive.org and has the footage currently missing from the opening scene and omits the 'Harmonica rising' scene, so would appear to be from one of the 16mm reduction prints of the 'original' version mentioned in the Video Watchdog article. Sadly, it cuts out a couple of minutes before the end, so can't be used as a reference for the credits - gah!

[Lighthouse]

Is this VHS a widescreen or a full screen version?

[JamesF]

Is this VHS a widescreen or a full screen version?

Pan-and-scan throughout, with horizontal squeezing during the credits sequences.

[Lighthouse]

Hmm, that an April 83 release features the version that Paramount created in 1984 is a bit odd ...

So there must be obviously something wrong with one of the informations.

And your tape includes the rising scene ...

[MichaelB]

James’s description fully matches that of my memory of two screenings in 1982 and 1983. In fact, I vividly remember how startled I was when I finally got to see Harmonica getting up, because I was so used to the abrupt transition between the creaking sound of the weathervane and the gunshots at the start of the McBain farm scene.

[JamesF]

Hmm, that an April 83 release features the version that Paramount created in 1984 is a bit odd ...

I think it's as simple as people keep calling it the "1984" version because that's what Paramount called it on their DVD, specifically because 1984 was the year that version was first exhibited in the US, without taking other territories into account. The actual "reconstruction" apparently took place at least a couple of years earlier, was first shown theatrically in the UK by UIP in 1982 and then released on VHS/Beta in the UK and other European countries by CIC the following year.

[MichaelB]

I can confirm that it first played in London in 1982, because I remember seeing it at the vast Empire Leicester Square as if it were yesterday; it was one of the most overwhelming cinematic experiences of my life.

[Lighthouse]

Must be so, but the exhaustive Video Watchdog article by Seven Lloyd about the different versions in the USA gives 1984 as year for Paramount's failed reconstruction of the theatrical version, which gave birth to the version Paramount distributes since then. Then Sep 84 can only have been the date that version was released first in the USA, and the reconstruction was done at least 2 year earlier.

In Germany the 1983 VHS release was still the theatrical version (also full frame), and the new version was probably not released before the 90s, when a widescreen version was released on VHS.
I first saw that Rising scene in 1998, when the long 177 min version was shown on German TV. Ha ha, startled describes very well my reaction, cause even If I knew that that scene existed in a short US version, I absolutely had not expected to see it here. I expected to see some of the deleted scenes as described in Frayling's book, and was very curious to see which, and was then pretty disappointed that none of them was featured, only that shitty Rising Scene and otherwise only needless extensions of existing scenes.

[JamesF]

I tried to put together a release history based on the info posted in this thread and whichever other sources were at my disposal or available at the touch of a button. Comments and corrections welcomed!

December 13 1968 – Submission to Italian censors (Ministero del Turismo e dello Spettacolo) lists runtime as 4869 metres, roughly 177½ mins. (This figure is also repeated on a doc dated December 20th, more info here: https://cinecensura.com/wp-content/uplo ... cicolo.pdf). If the post-production was anything like that of GBU (i.e. very chaotic, with Leone constantly second-guessing himself), editing changes were likely made right up to the last minute, and further changes to the cut may have been made even after the premiere on December 21st.

December 23 1968 – Italian theatrical cut goes on wide release, running 167 minutes including title spinning just before end credits rolling over black with “Cheyenne’s Theme” playing (watch 16mm excerpt here, same as Italian VHS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP8b2_GPUXU). Compared to the version currently in circulation on Blu-ray and UHD, the Italian theatrical cut (assuming this is the version released on initial Italian VHS) has 70 secs of additional footage in the opening, no ‘Harmonica rising’ sequence and ending as above.

May 28 1969 – English-language version premieres in New York, essentially the same 167-min cut as the Italian version, except title and end credits roll appear earlier (over “Finale” music) and “Cheyenne’s Theme” plays as exit music over black. Steven Lloyd claims the title did not spin on this version; this cannot be verified at present.

June 12 1969 – English-language version also approved for distribution in Italy.

June 1969 – Paramount are unhappy with the reception to the longer version and exercise their contractual right to cut the film to under 150 minutes for the wider release, without Leone’s input. English-language version cut down (manually to each print) to 144 minutes, losing 70 seconds in first reel, trading post scene, Jill firing on Harmonica at night, Navajo Cliffs hideout scene between Frank and Morton, Cheyenne’s death, shot of Harmonica riding away with Cheyenne’s body (according to Lloyd). According to Frayling and MFB (via MichaelB), Frank first discovering the aftermath of the train shootout (cutting straight to Morton’s death instead) was also cut from some prints. (Lloyd does not mention this edit, so perhaps UK prints were edited differently to US ones.) Unclear as to whether ‘Harmonica rising’ was added to the film at this point or in 1970, but likely the latter. (In Frayling’s book on the film, Joe Dante claims these cuts were made over a single weekend by someone working in the publicity department at Paramount.)

July 2 1969 – date of BBFC submission of 144-min version for UK release. The bed scene between Fonda and Cardinale is cut for an ‘A’ certificate.

August 14 1969 – 144-min version premieres in London (Wider release in UK on August 31). Meanwhile, the 167-min (possibly missing exit music) version is released in West Germany (dubbed), and also opens in Paris.

November 1970 – Films Incorporated (non-theatrical distributor of Paramount films) distribute English-language 16mm prints of the 144-min version. Lloyd claims this is where the ‘Harmonica rising’ scene first appeared and also a truncated version of the final shot where the title spin supposedly originated (though he is incorrect about the Italian cut title not spinning), with the title and credits starting sooner. According to Lloyd, these changes were now made to Paramount’s “negative” (presumably an interpos or interneg master rather than the Techniscope OCN, which would still be in Italy).

March 1973 – According to Lloyd, Paramount and Leone partner on a reconstruction of the original version (except for the final shot, still truncated) using dupes of the deleted material sent from Italy, distributed on 35mm and 16mm. Films Inc. reportedly offer a handful of full-length prints, available in pan-and-scan or ‘scope, for hire as late as 1981. (Ancedotally, these prints featured the ‘Harmonica rising’ scene, per HTF user ‘Sultanofcinema’)

1970s, unknown – 16mm prints of the full-length version (minus ‘Harmonica rising’) are sent to American television stations throughout the decade, and air as late as October 1983 (ABC affiliate WFAA in Dallas, TX). Though nominally uncut, these are reputed to be time-compressed to fit in more commercial breaks in a three-hour broadcast slot.

Feb 21 1980 – Italian-language version (“identical to the 35mm original”) approved for 16mm distribution by San Paolo Film in Italy (see clip linked above).

1980 – Lloyd claims that Paramount were unable to send a 35mm print of the long cut to the Sandburg Theater in Chicago for a booking there, despite the theater owners’ insistence. Whatever happened to the 35mm prints struck in 1973 is unknown (Paramount apparently offer a pan-and-scan 16mm print of the long cut instead). Instead, the cinema receives the studio’s vault print, which is the 144-min version.

(EDIT: in August 1980, Richard Corliss writes briefly in passing during an article in Time magazine that the full-length film has been restored by "heroic film scholars" - https://time.com/archive/6882058/cinema ... -rough-cut)

1981 – German 8mm distributor Marketing Films International offers English, French and Spanish-dubbed Super 8 pan-and-scan prints of the full-length ‘165-min’ version, as well as a three-part 66-min digest. (Catalogue here: https://super8database.com/catalogs/26/link/11347; digests also advertised in 1979 catalogue: https://super8database.com/catalogs/14/link/8294) According to HTF user akatanaka, this version omitted ‘Harmonica rising’ and had the full final shot with “Finale” playing to the end.

June 1982 – The “original uncut version” is released in London cinemas by UIP, premiering at the Empire Leicester Square. However, this is most likely the first release of the botched reconstruction with 70 secs of missing footage in the opening, ‘Harmonica rising’ included, title and credits appearing prematurely (timed to when they appear in the 1970 version instead of the 1969 one, despite the full length of the last shot being restored) and “Cheyenne’s Theme” interrupting “Finale” instead of being exit music.

April 1983 – VHS/Beta released by CIC in the UK (and other European countries), confirmed to be the botched reconstruction.

November 1983 – First German VHS release is still the original theatrical cut, albeit German-dubbed version with no exit music.

September 1984 – The reconstruction gets a limited theatrical release in North America "released in repertory through Films Incorporated”, with the poster declaring it to be “The Fully Restored Director’s Cut”. VHS and laserdisc editions follow in 1985 and every home video version hereafter (except in Italy). Paramount logos at start and end also altered to ‘blue mountain’ variant compared to 1983 VHS (which has the original 1968 logo at start); this carries over to every subsequent version.

(EDIT: Dave Kehr wrote this in a Chicago Reader review dated Feb 4 1983: "Various “restored” versions have surfaced at the film societies and revival houses over the years, but none until now has been definitive. The Wilmette-based distributor Films Incorporated has just issued a superb new thirty-five-millimeter print of the 168-minute European cut; though stories persist in buff circles of even more “complete” versions, this is likely to be as close as we will ever come to Once upon a Time in the West as Leone intended it." Perhaps the reconstruction was available sooner than 1984?)

1995 – An interpositive of an earlier 178-min cut – perhaps the same one initially submitted to the Italian censor board - is found at Technicolor Rome, and a standard-definition video remaster of this extended Italian-language version is supervised by film historian Claver Salizzato in league with Leone’s family and close collaborators, released in subsequent years on VHS and DVD as a “Director’s Cut” (though this is very, very much open to debate). (More info: https://ilmanifesto.it/archivio/1995020435)

2003 – Paramount remaster the 1982 version for DVD.

2007 – Paramount and The Film Foundation photochemically restore the 1982 version, now with a handful of missing shots reinstated in the opening reel, but others still missing and other errors still present. This version is released on Blu-ray in 2011.

2018 – Same again, this time in 4K using the Techniscope OCN (unclear as to whether this element was used at all for prior restorations), released on UHD in 2023.

[Lighthouse]

Thanks, that's very informative.

Interesting to see the original Italian ending credits to be different from the endings we knew. And also different from the 178 min version.

I'm surprised that an 8 mm version of the complete film was distributed. I always thought that generally all 8 mm films were only possible in very short versions.

I watched OuTW many times from 35 mm, and there never was exit music here in Germany. The title at the end came also in a different way. it was kinda floating around. You can check an image of it here (last photo on the right side): https://www.ofdb.de/fassung/1660,423948 ... d-vom-Tod/

[Lighthouse]

One correction, at least I think it is one, the short US and the short UK version are indeed not exactly the same.

1. "Frank first discovering the aftermath of the train shootout" was cut in the UK, but not in the USA, so as you already had suspected that's the reason why Lloyd hadn't mentioned it.

2. And the other way round "Jill firing on Harmonica at night" was in the UK version, but cut from the US version. That's why Frayling does not mention it in his first Spaghetti Western book.

It seems the Harmonica Rising scene was never part of the short UK version. And it also seems that the 144 min version was still distributed sometimes in the mid 80s according to this:

"Michael B. writes:

“Sorry to come late to this, but I can confirm with 100% certainty that the short version was screened at the Gate Cinema in Notting Hill in the mid 1980s, as I saw it there myself. I think it was a one-off matinée, but it was certainly a full public screening.

I can be completely certain that it was the short version, because it was my second or third viewing, having first been exposed to the long version at its 1982 revival - which I always understood to be the UK premiere (or at least the first commercial release) of the 165-minute cut. " "


Actually the way they cut the film was rather idiotic anyway by eliminating several of the best scenes and ideas, there would have been much better possibilities just to make the film shorter.

In the uncut version the film became in the long run the 2nd biggest hit in Germany of all films released between 1968 and 1984. Actually since 1969 only Titanic sold more tickets. (The other big long run success was The Jungle Book (1968) with several very successful re-releases)

[Lighthouse]

And the 178 min cut, to my knowledge it came from the private archives of Leone.

In interviews Leone had spoken about such a longer version. Curiously it was also said that the McBain farm hunting scene was longer in such a version, but that one is the same in all versions we have.

Which leads to the question of the version Scorsese got from Leone, which maybe is also a longer one, but was supposedly the reason why the reconstruction of the theatrical version by the Film Foundation resulted only in another puzzling version.

[Stefan Andersson]

"The original Italian ending from a 1980 16 mm copy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP8b2_GPUXU
The title comes with the exit music, no freeze frame. Credits after a fade out over red and black.

The ending from the 178 min version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB8fIJeEgKo
The title appears a bit earlier, the credits over a freeze frame which begins with the exit music.

The ending from Paramount but with the correct closing music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urU1F_Y3nSE
The title and credits appear much earlier. Comes probably from a German disc, the dub features the correct music. Or it is fan made with exit music added.

The usual Paramount version with the wrong music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGL6IGOsq94

Source:
https://www.fistful-of-leone.com/forums ... c=10564.15