justeleblanc wrote:This isn't a surprise. Kino's ghosting and English intertitles are old news. I'm a huge Lang fan and I really don't care too much about either.
Keep in mind that when I saw the Eureka discs, I decided not to buy them cause I saw typos -- or at least awkward translations -- from the intertitles.
Wait. Ghosting and English intertitles aren't a problem for you, but typos are? Please talk with your physician and ask if an adjustment of priorities is right for you.
skuhn8 wrote:Would've cancelled and waited for a Euro release of this if I thought Kino would screw it up.
skuhn8 wrote:did they intentionally lag on sending out review copies or something? why wasn't some of this info out there before? I'm pissed cause I ordered 8 days ago from DDD and it finally shipped yesterday. Would've cancelled and waited for a Euro release of this if I thought Kino would screw it up. Grrrrr!
I hate to be defending Kino's methods here, but guys, this is far from news. Look at Kino's release of Spies as compared to MoC's. What made you think that Kino would change their ways??? You guys are nuts. Is it the heat?
And about my problems with typos but not ghosting.... because even after watching movies on my computer or on my TV, I can't notice ghosting. And I really don't care that the intertitles are in English. I can see how it bothers some, but I really doubt that these are the original titles used in the original screenings back in 1922. I also don't mind that my movie comes in a plastic box instead of a metal can.
But during a dramatic scene, I would hate it if suddeny I see an "All your base are belong to us" translation.
But during a dramatic scene, I would hate it if suddeny I see an "All your base are belong to us" translation.
I can understand why poor translations bother you, but at least such incidents on the Eureka or Transit releases appear in subtitles. If poor translations are a concern I don't quite get why English intertitles are not - having an error in a subtitle is, I think, a much lesser problem than seeing an incorrect translation in the intertitles themselves. And this sometimes happens with Kino's (and other's) releases.
But during a dramatic scene, I would hate it if suddeny I see an "All your base are belong to us" translation.
I can understand why poor translations bother you, but at least such incidents on the Eureka or Transit releases appear in subtitles. If poor translations are a concern I don't quite get why English intertitles are not - having an error in a subtitle is, I think, a much lesser problem than seeing an incorrect translation in the intertitles themselves. And this sometimes happens with Kino's (and other's) releases.
That may be, but with the Lang releases, I haven't noticed anything awkward with the intertitles. We'll see if Mabuse is any different.
Michael Kerpan wrote:If the _original_ titles are gone -- there is no way at all to know whether the English ones are correct. ;~}
The German titles are new as well, so there's no way to know if these titles are in fact what Lang originally wrote. Now, I don't know German so I don't know if the translations are exact, chances are there may be a few translations that aren't exact. But what I was concerned about was the English subtitles on the Eureka discs just being awkwardly written, there were a few moments with strange conjugation issues that I don't think were intended. I am assuming (since Spies & Metropolis didn't have these problems) that the intertitles on the Kino discs will not have the awkward sentences. If you're fluent in German, by all means yous should buy the Eureka discs, but since neither the German or English intertitles are authentic, why stress over what language they are in?
From dvdbeaver about the Eureka Mabuse discs:
Apart from the odd spelling mistake, they bear the unmistakable sign of being translated by someone who is not a native English speaker. From the constructions, I would hazard a guess that they were done in Germany.
I know that this could be regarded as nit-picking, but there are a couple of places where things just don't make sense.
You kids watching the film or attached with window-washer glass-suckers onta your screen glaring at the cathodes with a jeweller's eyepiece? As is to be expected for a company pumping out three silent films a MONTH, brand new exclusive six-figure progressive transfers are not possible. What you brats are hoping for transfer-wise in a co specializing in silents is just never ever going to be financially feasable. BFI dont do it, CC don't do it A Eye don't do it & MOC are releasing about a silent disc every other couple months and only recently switched to progressive transfers... even with FAUST, the first major silent inna while, Nick confessed that a new transfer was too cost-prohibitive, thus the jaggies.
Forced to choose between Reconstructed German Intertitles with embarassingly klunky English subtitles, and reconstructed English Intertitles with excellent, literary translations, I'd probably choose the reconstructed English.
Arguing is useless, Justelblanc. They've been taught to identify technical gleeps and throwing terms like "ghosting" & "combing" around, and some will always continue to look for these things first & foremost upon disc aquisition, even if they have to strain to find them... regardless of whether or not these insects are actually visible during the enjoyment process.
Ok, Sparky. So is this to suggest that if we perused your previous 1094 posts ( )we wouldn't find a single sigh of disappointment at transfer quality? I know you got yours in advance and for free from Kino (kudos), but for those who shelled out I think it's a fair to be a little disappointed if there's major shifting there. I know I find it very distracting when moving images start to sputter and cough across the screen like an ailing Trabant. Now, again, I haven't even seen a cap yet--let alone got mine--so this may be jumping at nothing, but the first indications are less than promising. To be honest, I ordered mine just after I read your "image is stunning", since I trust your assessment on silents...but now that you are working PR for Kino...hmmm....
Well, in the case of this extended Mabuse, where you have to make a choice between reconstructed English titles vs. reconstructed German titles with clumsy English translation, I can understand why a person might want to go with Kino despite a poor PAL->NTSC transfer. (Personally, I got the Eureka over a year ago, and I don't find the English subtitles incomprehensible or even overly distracting. Then again, I've graded lots of freshmen papers, so I've seen much worse from native English speakers and may have built up some sort of immunity.)
But all other things being equal, why not always go with the better transfer? In other words, in the case of Spies, Metropolis, Asphalt, etc., why stick with an inferior Kino DVD? I mean, I understand your support of an indie label like Kino, Schreck, but MoC is just as worthy of support -- and supplies much better product to boot. Or am I misunderstanding your point here?
For me at least the transfer is not noticable at all unless you look at every frame. I would much rather dvdbeaver begin to house small clips instead of pictures, because his pictures make the Kino transfers look like WMDs.
And no, it doesn't make sense for someone who speaks German or who already owns the Eureka discs to pick up Kino's. But for those who do not yet have Eureka's discs, this new release could be a cheaper investment for those living in the U.S.
This discussion arose from a negative review of the Kino discs, from someone who really has serious (and in my opinion irrational) beef with the transfer and the intertitles. If you are one of the few who can actually notice the ghosting, then by all means buy the Eureka discs.
Ghosting is one of those things that I become aware of only when it's particularly bad. IMO, it's particularly bad on Kino's Metropolis, so that's made me a little wary of Kino product. (On the other hand, there are a lot of Kino titles that probably do disply ghosting if you look for it but that I find OK -- like Contraband, for example. So I don't think my caution is irrational.)
What really surprises me is this point you make:
But for those who do not yet have Eureka's discs, this new release could be a cheaper investment for those living in the U.S.
In fact, up until DDD's 50% discount on Kino titles, the MoC versions have always worked out to be a couple of dollars cheaper through CD-Wow!, especially if you take S&H into account. Not to mention the fact that you sometimes get better extras from MoC -- if nothing else, you generally get a nice booklet. (Of course, that's not the case with Mabuse.)
Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse. Like I said before, I can definitely understand why you'd want to go with Kino in this case. What puzzles me is that both you and Schreck seem to imply that you'd be perfectly happy with a lower-quality transfer -- even thought part of the point of going multi-regional is that you don't have to settle.
tryavna wrote: part of the point of going multi-regional is that you don't have to settle.
uh-oh
Hmm.... Perhaps you're right, Skuhn. Just pretend I didn't say it.
My uh-oh refers to a sore spot on the part of someone you are arguing with you opts not to go region free. Last time my gentle gibe resulted in upsetting said individual. I wholeheartedly agree with you: Life is too short to spend watching less than the best available transfers...especially something that is 4 1/2 hours long. Heck, it's a silent film. They can give me a soundtrack in 2.0 or 5.1, don't care. I want best possible image quality. Fortunately the good folks at MOC seem pretty on top of R0.
skuhn8 wrote:Life is too short to spend watching less than the best available transfers...
What a quote!!!
I'm not sure who the victor is in our discussion, but I wouldn't mind ending it on that.
me too... Skuhn is often quotable. With the Facets disputes clear in mind, I think it possible to even amend the statement slightly: "Life is too short to pass up watching a film due to less than perfect transfer, but equally too short to settle for anything but the best available transfer."
In my short time in this forum, this question continues to come up all over the place. As I see it, the question comes down to personal preferences and priorities. The great thing about this forum (and review sites like Beaver's) is that it can help film fans make a balanced decision on which edition of a film to purchase, and whether to purchase at all.
Another angry, drunken Hungarian night put down to words.
No meine Freunde, this is what I sez:
Silents're silents. Its an impossible market to live in and pull a sparkling progressive exclusive transfer for 3 releases a month. That's just a fact, end of conversation. They will cease to exist immediately and forthwith as a moneymaking entity. On their domestic silents they have NTSC masters and the problem tends to not exist. On european silents from FWMF Kino basically has to defer to masters made abroad.
I dont get copies for free, I'm not a shill, I just have an affection for the company because they have the balls of Dick Tracy to be doing what they're doing. I WANT WHAT YOU WANT: a world where every film including silents has a brand new Renoir-CC type progressive transfer done for it. But it is never ever going to happen. Milestone is no different from Kino-- I love em. BFI is no different from Kino, all their silents are interlaced transfers full of combing. Ditto AEye, FANTOMAS, interlace city. MoC's silents mostly interlaced and full of jags. Some, like ASPHALT even look ANALOG. Even still they come out at a rate that is very very cautious and tentative. His last disc, one of the most beloved silent films in history by one of the most beloved silent directors in history-- still a new transfer was cost-prohibitive, and jaggies from running it thru the ntsc-pal wash to have it run progressive. CC's ultra ultra rare dedicated silents have nowhere near the attention of their talkies, half are interlaced. Their last silent release was 04!
In germany & france they make masters but never put them out on disc. The UK is the only place where you find even the hint of the balls to put silents out with regularity. What we are dreaming of & hoping for does not exist. So when I hear people whining like above it always makes me want to ask-- who is doing what you want?
That said, if Kino was putting out silent discs that looked like Milstones PHANTOM, or Image's BERLIN, you'd hear me yelling at the top of my lungs. Those are discs that are "PAL/NTSC mess"es, the way so many discs are described. I watch on Sony wegas, a super hi res bigscreen dedicated CRT, as well as a regular tube tv and the only way I can really notice the extra frame in most of their releases is to stop & step forward.
I've got dozens & dozens of Kino releases at home , many of which there is simply no global substitute for (Paul Leni, Fairbanks, Pabst, Griffith, Pastrone, Kirsanoff, Epstein, Edison, Stiller, Robison, Stroeheim, Chaney silents, Mamoulian, West, Tourneur, and on and on and on), in transfers that look quite nice on any set. How anyone coud collect these hyperobscure gems and feel anything but gratitude to such a co, is really a mystery to me. Sophmoric Nerdville is how it reads to me.
HerrSchreck wrote:Silents're silents. Its an impossible market to live in and pull a sparkling progressive exclusive transfer for 3 releases a month. That's just a fact, end of conversation. They will cease to exist immediately and forthwith as a moneymaking entity.
If they were to pull back to 1 per month with 3 times the effort put into it, would the better word of mouth result in 3 times the sales of each title?
That would be a better business model for the consumer, but I guess you think that in practical terms that would not happen?
well, shucks. Mr. Schreck, what you say is of course true and after all the hyperventilation and perusal of the cold hard facts of business and of what really matters in the final analysis (that is, getting it out there in above-Facets quality) it is clear that Kino has got the balls of a porn star. It's just a consumer's frustration at having to come up short on what we have been spoiled into believing is not just possible but ready to be had just round the corner kick myself in the guts with joi-de-vivre well heck finally its here and I don't even have to think of replacing it with a better.
I've been holding out on this film and Potemkin, meaning I have yet to see either in any shape or form, because I feel this first impression is kindofa cherry poppin' cinematic moment. sniffle sniffle...just want the best...[cries in Tokaj, draws up big phlegm into already swollen sinuses]...sniffle sniffle...how much you say they payin' you over there at Kino-ba-Bingo?
n w wrote:
If they were to pull back to 1 per month with 3 times the effort put into it, would the better word of mouth result in 3 times the sales of each title?
Exactly. Many people buy MoC or Criterion dvds simply because they are out on these labels which deservedly are associated with quality releases, whereas other people (like me) tend to avoid Kino at all costs wherever possible (and to their credit and extremely good taste, often it's not possible) because so many of their releases suffer from a less than optimal presentation. They did a reasonable job about their native NTSC releases mostly (all the things Schreck has mentioned, Griffith, The Avant-Garde set etc.), but even these I only bought reluctantly simply because the way they handle German silents.
Kino is a label for film freaks, isn't it? They are not dealing with blockbusters designed for an undiscerning audience that do not know what a region-free player is. Anyone seriously interested in silents MUST have a codefree player simply because the few silents available are spilled over the whole of this world.
I'm totally with them when they release stuff like "Warning Shadows" or the Stiller dvds (which I still have to see....) , but if they do not have the resources - for whatever reason - to deliver a first-class product, why put out films that are already out elsewhere in close to perfect editions?
WHY would anybody interested in these films buy the Kino releases of "Mabuse" or "Holy Mountain" when they can easily get the far superior MoC's?
n w wrote:
If they were to pull back to 1 per month with 3 times the effort put into it, would the better word of mouth result in 3 times the sales of each title?
Exactly. Many people buy MoC or Criterion dvds simply because they are out on these labels which deservedly are associated with quality releases, whereas other people (like me) tend to avoid Kino at all costs wherever possible (and to their credit and extremely good taste, often it's not possible) because so many of their releases suffer from a less than optimal presentation. They did a reasonable job about their native NTSC releases mostly (all the things Schreck has mentioned, Griffith, The Avant-Garde set etc.), but even these I only bought reluctantly simply because the way they handle German silents.
Kino is a label for film freaks, isn't it? They are not dealing with blockbusters designed for an undiscerning audience that do not know what a region-free player is. Anyone seriously interested in silents MUST have a codefree player simply because the few silents available are spilled over the whole of this world.
I'm totally with them when they release stuff like "Warning Shadows" or the Stiller dvds (which I still have to see....) , but if they do not have the resources - for whatever reason - to deliver a first-class product, why put out films that are already out elsewhere in close to perfect editions?
WHY would anybody interested in these films buy the Kino releases of "Mabuse" or "Holy Mountain" when they can easily get the far superior MoC's?
Do we know that the Eureka Mabuse is superior to the Kino? I know it is assumed, but...
I don't know where I got the idea that Kino was releasing the first presentation of the "full" 4 1/2 hours. I had the Eureka one in my sendit.com hitlist for ever and didn't bother to reference time. Would've cost me less to get the Eureka, part of my frustration. Just wish someone could do a friggin' comparison already. Leaving the country day after tomorrow and will have mabuse in my box when I arrive home. Just want to know what to expect.
Tommaso wrote:WHY would anybody interested in these films buy the Kino releases of "Mabuse" or "Holy Mountain" when they can easily get the far superior MoC's?
Because, at least for me, I cannot tell the difference. It's NOT far superior. I doubt these criticisms could survive a taste test.
Tommaso wrote:
WHY would anybody interested in these films buy the Kino releases of "Mabuse" or "Holy Mountain" when they can easily get the far superior MoC's?
Because (1) I don't own a region-free player, and I don't intend to buy one because I just don't want to and (2) notwithstanding all the alleged superior aspects of the MOCs (and I'll take everyone's word about those...the folks who do MOC are serious about movies and I believe it when they are claimed to be superior), when I watch these Kino silents they don't look bad to me.
I guess we've got basically two issues here that are always going to divide people:
1.) Yes, Kino are a very "ballsy" company that demand respect for the sheer number of obscure films they make available in decent, if not always outstanding, condition. However, one cannot help but wonder if they wouldn't please more DVD and film afficionados were they to cut back on the number and spend more on extras and progressive encoding. It's a question of quantity versus (perceived) quality that will probably never be resolved.
2.) Region-free DVD players are wonderfully liberating appliances that may strike many (mostly American) DVD afficionados as a bit of an unnecessary luxury. I guess you can't really know until you buy one. But it's a bit like heroin -- you can turn into an addict all to easily.
We really ought to get back to the DVDs that Kino have released -- like 'em or not. And not get too bogged down in the love-hate relationship so many of us on this forum have towards Kino.
)we wouldn't find a single sigh of disappointment at transfer quality? I know you got yours in advance and for free from Kino (kudos), but for those who shelled out I think it's a fair to be a little disappointed if there's major shifting there. I know I find it very distracting when moving images start to sputter and cough across the screen like an ailing Trabant. Now, again, I haven't even seen a cap yet--let alone got mine--so this may be jumping at nothing, but the first indications are less than promising. To be honest, I ordered mine just after I read your "image is stunning", since I trust your assessment on silents...but now that you are working PR for Kino...hmmm.... 
me too... Skuhn is often quotable. With the Facets disputes clear in mind, I think it possible to even amend the statement slightly: "Life is too short to pass up watching a film due to less than perfect transfer, but equally too short to settle for anything but the best available transfer."
