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For the first pressing it has to be too late, but subsequent pressings may change that if things work out to MOC's favour.

antnield wrote:It's also worth considering whether the Kino reviews so far relate to a check disc or to the finished product - it's been known before for check discs not to match in the past (as MichaelB has previously mentioned in the Here We Go Round the Mulberry Bush thread from the BFI section).

Wow, I sure hope this is the case, because if not, I'm not sure I'll purchase another Kino disc. For Metropolis, MoC's getting my money regardless, so that sale is unaffected. Still, I've often thought Gary Tooze was unfair to Kino in his reviews, but they may be about to generate a level of ill-will on this forum that will far surpass Gary's distaste for them.

And here I was about to order both of Kino\'s Wong Kar-Wai Blus. I had wanted to pick up the Kino Metropolis in addition to the MoC (since Kino will have the English intertitles), but if this region coding thing holds true and MoC has actually been screwed, then Kino\'s permanently lost a customer.

Really hope MoC can do region-free. I definitely want theirs and not Kino's.

Kino have confirmed their Blu-ray is region-free. They told us that their "authoring house made an error".

The MoC METROPOLIS Blu-ray is Region B due to a prior agreement with Kino that they would release theirs Region A.

I'm afraid it's hard for me to believe their authoring house made an error when the back of the sleeve and the disc do not feature the required Region A logo. The authoring house do not also design and print the sleeves.

If it's an error, it's a total and complete failure of communication at every level and I'm flabbergasted that such a grievous error could be made.

Wow, that is just disgusting.

The funny thing is, who in their right mind would import the Kino into region B? The only reason I can think of to buy it over the MoC is either not knowing about the MoC or being region locked out of it.

Wow indeed. I'll just wait and see how this clears up before I go hanging around Kino's HQ with my MoC Metropolis T-Shirt or something.

Wow. I don't want to buy their Buster Keaton releases anymore. (Hopefully they will be released in Europe some day).

Agreed. Kino's story doesn't add up, and they just lost a semi-regular customer.

Talk about some backstabbing....

Does anything of this "deal" with them have been written down on paper or something ?

Anyway, I will start right now to "pass the good word" about them in France.

It's amazing that such things can be done, and the only I would start to do would be to play their own game, and do the same type of mistakes...

Oops, mine it's region free too. Oh no !

Guess I won't be buying Metropolis. Here's hoping you can do a second, non-region locked printing of it.

If Kino did this deliberately (and the absence of a Region A warning on the box suggests that this is the most likely explanation), it's a shabbily cynical move that guarantees that no-one else will enter into a similar agreement with them in future - and I will most certainly be alerting UK distributors who might be in that position (one in particular).

Maybe they assumed (probably correctly) that Metropolis would be so disproportionately successful compared with the rest of their catalogue that it would justify this kind of short-termism?

Anyway, like others, it's made me seriously question whether I want to continue buying Kino's products - which is a real shame, as I've been championing their releases almost since I bought my first player in 1999.

I also apologise in advance for mentioning Kino's release in my Sight & Sound review of the MoC Blu-ray (now filed, and probably impossible to change at this stage), though I did so in good faith at the time, thinking that US readers might want to know that there was a Region A (ha!) alternative.

As others have already said, Kino has a monopoly on so many titles that it's hard not to pick up on some of their titles. Though if no new news comes around I'll be more willing to go to the foreign alternatives.

knives wrote:As others have already said, Kino has a monopoly on so many titles that it's hard not to pick up on some of their titles.

Well, either you want to take a principled stand over this or you don't. "I'm outraged by their behaviour and won't be buying anything from them again... ooh, shiny!" isn't an especially effective response. And I daresay the bulk of Kino's Blu-rays will turn up on other labels - the Keatons in particular.

What's particularly reprehensible about this move is that Kino would have had a much bigger market even if they'd respected their agreement.

You have secret info on the Keaton's? [-o< I figure stuff like the WKW will go the way of Pandora, but I was making that statement to suite films like Walsh's Regeneration where there isn't an alternative and isn't likely to be one.

Edit: Also it wasn't like I was calling for a boycott, just saying when there is an alternative I'll take it.

In other words, "ooh, shiny!"

Principled stands involve making sacrifices, otherwise they're like my Franklin Mint "boycott" - I've never bought any of their products and I'm never going to, so they won't exactly be quaking in their boots. On the other hand, I've given Kino many hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the last decade.

I don't have any privileged information, but Kino never had the monopoly on Keaton on DVD, so there's no reason to assume that'll be the position with Blu-ray.

If the DVD versions of Fallen Angels isn't a sacrifice than I don't know what is.

matrixschmatrix wrote:Wow, that is just disgusting.

The funny thing is, who in their right mind would import the Kino into region B? The only reason I can think of to buy it over the MoC is either not knowing about the MoC or being region locked out of it.

I suspect Kino weren't concerned so much about expanding the size of their market as restricting the size of MoC's, given that the MoC package is undoubtedly superior (I've actually heard the Kalat/Rosenbaum commentary and read the MoC booklet, so this isn't just optimism based on written specs). Which is why they asked MoC to region-lock in the first place, despite the latter's stated preference for open competition.

But it's not a trick they're going to be able to pull off again, as the world of niche arthouse DVD/BD distribution is miniscule.

Is there really no recourse MoC can possibly take? Two "accidents" really can't hold up very well in legal terms- especially since you had a contract. It seems like, Nick, you could at least go tattling to Murnau Stiftung.

The only thing that Kino could do to make me respect them, let alone consider buying from them is if they recalled all of their stock and fixed both issues (even then, what a foul-up).

Has anyone checked the Metropolis DVD to see if it is also region locked? Seems like lightning couldn't possibly strike four times...

All I can really say is, all of those out there who haven't made the $130 plunge, what the hell are you waiting for? At the absolute least, buy the DVD and download VLC

At the very least, MoC should insist on a notarised copy of Kino's agreement with the authoring house - which would surely specify region-coding - and maybe the one with the printers too (though in my experience many DVD sleeves that state R1 only, notably from Warner, accompany discs that actually play in other regions).

But I don't think this matters if MoC has a written agreement with Kino. Mistake or not, MoC or Eureka should be able to sue Kino, then it's up to Kino to sue the authoring house. All very unpleasant, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to stay in business.

Has Kino ever region-coded a silent before? I don't have any of their Blu-rays, but none of my Kino DVDs state R1 on the case, nor do I remember having a problem when I test them on my R2-locked player. Their preferred approach, for their European-sourced silents, is to state on their website "(Note: DVD not for sale to customers outside U.S. and Canada)" This gets them off the hook as an e-tailer but of course it doesn't prevent others from selling their product wherever they like.

For Metropolis Kino's site also states:

THIS PRODUCT IS REGION PROTECTED AND WILL NOT BE SHIPPED OUTSIDE OF THE USA AND CANADA
UK Buyers should purchase the Masters of Cinema Edition on DVD or Blu-ray.

But to merely include that on their website is of course a tiny concession...

What I don't understand is what the possible advantage could be for Kino NOT to region-lock their disc despite the written agreement. Even if their disc now also plays on Region B-players, who would actually import it to Europe? It's more expensive than the MoC, has less extras and replaced intertitles on top of it. In other words, sales will remain the same more or less and restricted to the USA, region-coded or not. I understand that they want MoC out of the US competition, but that would have worked equally well if they had honoured that contract.

Jonathan S wrote:But I don't think this matters if MoC has a written agreement with Kino. Mistake or not, MoC or Eureka should be able to sue Kino, then it's up to Kino to sue the authoring house. All very unpleasant, but sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to stay in business.

This is all very well in theory, but in practice it's probably unaffordable - or rather, the cost of any legal action would more than swamp any potential profit (Metropolis is a blockbuster by MoC and Kino's usual standards, but when set against most mainstream releases it's piddling). And it's also by no means certain whether this undertaking to region-code was legally binding or a "gentleman's agreement".

And the real problem isn't that the Kino is region-free but that the MoC is region-locked. So even if Kino recalled and repressed all their discs to Region A, it wouldn't make any significant difference - as many have already said, who's going to import it in preference to the MoC?

Tommaso wrote:It's more expensive than the MoC, has less extras and replaced intertitles on top of it.

Odd though it seems to us, many people prefer replaced English intertitles, especially the kind of general sci-fi buffs for whom this may be the only silent film that ever enters their collection. But I also knew a silent film specialist (now dead) - who received a credit on the Cinema Europe series and was old enough to have attended the first London-run of Murnau's Faust - who also much preferred English-only intertitles. His view was they had "more impact" than two languages fighting each other. He even planned to create his own edition of Criterion's Passion of Joan with all-English titles...!

peerpee wrote:The MoC METROPOLIS Blu-ray is Region B due to a prior agreement with Kino that they would release theirs Region A.

Interesting development. You said, you have the agreement in written, that they will release Metropolis as Region A, thus it is clearly a breach of contract. Doesn't matter if it is a mistake or not.

Kino can correct it voluntary and print new BRs. Otherwise you can go a court and file a lawsuit for omission of release, then Kino cant release Metropolis Code Free. Or maybe there is a friendlier way to rule this issue out.

MichaelB wrote: And it's also by no means certain whether this undertaking to region-code was legally binding or a "gentleman's agreement".

Peerpee did state on here that MoC had it "in writing".