criterionforum.org

B-Rdotcom have rated Arrow's Hellraiser 1-4 al l4 - 4.25 in terms of picture quality. What do we think of their constant picking at "chunky yellow grain" and grain variances?

Odd that they seldom mention encoding anomalies in the Severins, Vinegar Syndromes and Criterions. but they often pick up the chunky yellowness in others

Apart from that, they seem to like the discs although they don't see much upgrade over the standard blu ray.

M Sanderson wrote:B-Rdotcom have rated Arrow's Hellraiser 1-4 al l4 - 4.25 in terms of picture quality. What do we think of their constant picking at "chunky yellow grain" and grain variances?

Odd that they seldom mention encoding anomalies in the Severins, Vinegar Syndromes and Criterions. but they often pick up the chunky yellowness in others

Apart from that, they seem to like the discs although they don't see much upgrade over the standard blu ray.

It’s funny that you write that as I’ve been criticizing the same reviewer for his very inappropriate means in judging the quality of a BD / UHD.
See here: https://criterionforum.org/forum/viewto ... 65#p802165

Contempt is a title with encoding issues that makes the grain less “in your face”, which likely is why that reviewer rated it as highly as he did.

indeed that reviewer in particular offers unusual comments about grain.

does anyone disagree with him regarding the Hellraiser releases?

M Sanderson wrote:indeed that reviewer in particular offers unusual comments about grain.

does anyone disagree with him regarding the Hellraiser releases?

I’m very, very sure it’s a knockout release like the vast majority of Arrow (UHD) releases. Fidelity in Motion encoded all four films and the caps I’ve seen are phenomenal. As usual with Arrow, I assume the OCN-sourced shots in HDR / DV border on surreal in how good they look. At least that’s what I felt when I saw Blood and Black Lace, to name a recent one. I was just stunned from how that film looks in a “yes, this is why I love physical media / UHD” way.

It's a fantastic looking set.The smokey interiors in the first film look incredible on their own.

The fourth film is on the same level as well. The only thing are jaggies around some of the CGI effects, which isn't a surprise and about as nit-picky as you can get. The inserted matetial for the unrated cut of 3 is also still taken from SD video.

I didn't read the full review, but I'm not sure what "chunky yellow grain" means here, and I have no idea how anyone can come away thinking there's no improvement over Arrow's old Blu-rays.

The only disappointment is they couldn't port everything over, which is why I'm keeping my Scarlet set, despite really only liking the first film.

Finch wrote:Shout's Fargo 4k samlop10 review

Shout’s recent track record in the most important departments is excellent, so the news about the encode not being that perfect is slightly surprising but of all films, Fargo definitely is not the easiest one due to the snow. The SDR screenshots already look very good. When seeing the grain intact in a film shot by a DP who transitioned that radically to digital always makes my heart blossom.

nicolas wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:18 pm

M Sanderson wrote:indeed that reviewer in particular offers unusual comments about grain.

does anyone disagree with him regarding the Hellraiser releases?

I’m very, very sure it’s a knockout release like the vast majority of Arrow (UHD) releases. Fidelity in Motion encoded all four films and the caps I’ve seen are phenomenal. As usual with Arrow, I assume the OCN-sourced shots in HDR / DV border on surreal in how good they look. At least that’s what I felt when I saw Blood and Black Lace, to name a recent one. I was just stunned from how that film looks in a “yes, this is why I love physical media / UHD” way.

indeed, Arrow's UHDs are very impressive in my experience. In particular I share your enthusiasm for their release of Blood and Black Lace, and I also think Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas and Naked Lunch looked stunning. Pitch Black, True Romance... they seem to be releasing the films I covet, to a very high standard.I never did quite understand the chunky yellow grain complaint. I always felt that while other labels leave in bizarre anomalies, that Arrow seem very dependable, as much as Indicator or the BFI.

Re The Hellraisers, the one from the Scarlet Box that could've looked better was part 3: Hell on Earth, a film I like a great deal. Looking forward to reacquainting as the script is literate and the late Anthony Hickox directs with some style and momentum.

Truly intrigued by the addition of part 4, with its layering of past, present and future.

I've never liked part 2, Hellbound. Hoping that this latest iteration of the film will allow me to appreciate with fresh eyes. As I do like Randel a lot, for Ticks, Fist of the North Star, and the most accomplished Amityville: 1992/It's About Time.


Following these very welcome releases from the Psycho and Hellraiser franchises, what do we think will be the next major overhaul by Arrow? The Phantasms, in about a year's time (part 2 is well overdue a fresh lick of paint)? Or Re-animators?

M Sanderson wrote:

nicolas wrote: Sat Nov 04, 2023 11:18 pm

M Sanderson wrote:indeed that reviewer in particular offers unusual comments about grain.

does anyone disagree with him regarding the Hellraiser releases?

I’m very, very sure it’s a knockout release like the vast majority of Arrow (UHD) releases. Fidelity in Motion encoded all four films and the caps I’ve seen are phenomenal. As usual with Arrow, I assume the OCN-sourced shots in HDR / DV border on surreal in how good they look. At least that’s what I felt when I saw Blood and Black Lace, to name a recent one. I was just stunned from how that film looks in a “yes, this is why I love physical media / UHD” way.

indeed, Arrow's UHDs are very impressive in my experience. In particular I share your enthusiasm for their release of Blood and Black Lace, and I also think Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas and Naked Lunch looked stunning. Pitch Black, True Romance... they seem to be releasing the films I covet, to a very high standard.I never did quite understand the chunky yellow grain complaint. I always felt that while other labels leave in bizarre anomalies, that Arrow seem very dependable, as much as Indicator or the BFI.

Re The Hellraisers, the one from the Scarlet Box that could've looked better was part 3: Hell on Earth, a film I like a great deal. Looking forward to reacquainting as the script is literate and the late Anthony Hickox directs with some style and momentum.

Truly intrigued by the addition of part 4, with its layering of past, present and future.

I've never liked part 2, Hellbound. Hoping that this latest iteration of the film will allow me to appreciate with fresh eyes. As I do like Randel a lot, for Ticks, Fist of the North Star, and the most accomplished Amityville: 1992/It's About Time.


Following these very welcome releases from the Psycho and Hellraiser franchises, what do we think will be the next major overhaul by Arrow? The Phantasms, in about a year's time (part 2 is well overdue a fresh lick of paint)? Or Re-animators?

I have no idea where they’re going next. Based on this year’s incredible slate, I assume and hope that 2024 will just be a continuation of that very high standard. The Conan set is a great beginning. This year had big surprises and a varied selection. I’d have never thought they’d release Barbarella or Blackhat for instance. If this year is remotely the same, we’re really lucky to have them as a fixture of greatness among the many mediocre efforts by other labels.

Sony's 4k re-issue of Black Hawk Down in a steelbook edition actually got a slightly superior encode so this is the version to get if you must have the absolute best presentation or haven't bought the film before. Dolby Vision was added but as with Starship Troopers, Sony hasn't utilised it as well as they could have. If you already own the previous 4k, you'll have to weigh up if the small improvements are worth buying the film again. Either way, this is the version that's listed in the top tier from now on unless there is another home video format and we're going up to 8k.

Then there is The Guns of Navarone steelbook where the disc is actually worth buying for Dolby Vision if your player can handle it.

Le Magnifique was released in France by Studiocanal from a new 4K restoration of the film.
Disc is a BD-66, has Dolby Vision and is compatible for France and Germany in audio and subtitles.

The scan and restoration was done by L’imagine Ritrovata and looks like that more than it doesn’t. It’s not their worst work but far from the better ones (The Conformist as an example). Svet will not like this - I thought of him the minute I saw the color of pool water in an early scene.

Encoding was 100% certainly done by the same facility that ruined Breathless and made Contempt look quite flat and ugly, meaning that all OCN footage looks exceptional (with even a little detail in the highlights but they’re nonetheless clipped) and optical shots are horrible. The opening titles for example are laughably bad with bitrates diving down to 5 Mbps! In addition, Ritrovata grain-managed the opticals and made them look like Paramount’s. Again, the OCN shots look good and have very pleasing detail.

Knowing myself I will probably enjoy this presentation more than any old master despite the issues but it’s obviously a mediocre effort all around and far from an easy recommendation.

nicolas wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:43 pmIn addition, Ritrovata grain-managed the opticals and made them look like Paramount’s.

I just saw this one through the BD presentation, and Ritrovata'd color grading aside, yeah, the opticals are quite bad. There's a shot at 49 min 09 that's particularly bad, close to waterpainting.
It is however quite an upgrade (though still a perfectible one) over the previous master, which was rubbish (and the French Canal BD was rubbishly encoded on top of that - the car crash at the end has so much banding, you can barely understand what is going on).

tenia wrote:

nicolas wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:43 pmIn addition, Ritrovata grain-managed the opticals and made them look like Paramount’s.

I just saw this one through the BD presentation, and Ritrovata'd color grading aside, yeah, the opticals are quite bad. There's a shot at 49 min 09 that's particularly bad, close to waterpainting.
It is however quite an upgrade (though still a perfectible one) over the previous master, which was rubbish (and the French Canal BD was rubbishly encoded on top of that - the car crash at the end has so much banding, you can barely understand what is going on).

I thought so re. the older master. I didn’t like the look of it from caps and just for a basic improvement the new one is nice to have. I’ve held off watching the film for the first time because of that. Those in need of English subtitles probably need to stick with the older master for a while though - I don’t see Kino licensing the restoration any time soon.

I've put together translation subtitles for the StudioCanal Ghost Dog, and can confirm that they work on both the BD and the UHD.

I've attached instructions for how to play them on an Oppo player, but if any other player has the ability to attach SRT subtitles, they should work with that as well.

And now that I know that this technique works on my setup, I'm very tempted to import the Japanese Kagemusha disc, as I can't see that getting a non-Japanese release now that it'll be owned by Disney internationally.

Michael, thank you so much for creating the subtitles and putting together instructions! This is a tremendous help. I also have an Oppo player, so this should work. High hopes for the subtitles for the Japanese Kagemusha disc next. You are the best!

Any more word on if the Lionsgate Le Mepris 4K is better encoded than the StudioCanal? Trying to figure out if I wanna just settle for the SC while Rarewaves is doing their 10% weekend sale

They most likely are the same disc, which has been the case for nearly every StudioCanal title that Lionagate has released on UHD

Ghosting/motion blurring discovered and tested on different equipment on the new 4k, BD and streaming versions of Trading Places

The 75 minute original TV cut of Duel is only presented as a poorly upscaled SD version with the 4k/BD. That's a pity as I was curious to see that cut in actual high definition.

Svet published his Days of Heaven Criterion 4K review: https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Days-of- ... 33/#Review

I’ve taken a look at the downscaled 1080p screenshots despite them being incorrectly HDR-SDR converted. To my eyes the master doesn’t seem to have the Walkabout issues as the skies and generally brighter portions show grain and image detail. Consistency in the grain could be an issue as CC and their authoring house(s) have sadly proven way too often. Darker shots look impressive even on these converted caps and likely fare best overall. I assume that the film is on a BD-66 despite contrary information in the BR.com profile - they also show Walkabout‘s disc size as BD-100.

Other than that, it looks like Days of Heaven lacks Paramount‘s digital processing, meaning this is almost certainly Criterion in-house restoration. Such great news.

I hope Chris receives his copy soon. I‘d love to hear your thoughts on the encode.

These caps are so poorly downconverted, why even bother adding them ?

The details about the restoration provided by Lyon Film Festival are : "4K restoration by The Criterion Collection, with support from Paramount Pictures and Park Circus, under the supervision and with the final approval of Terrence Malick."

Also, Walkabout's Criterion UHD is 66,458,898,190 bytes, which looks to me like a BD-66.

tenia wrote:These caps are so poorly downconverted, why even bother adding them ?

The details about the restoration provided by Lyon Film Festival are : "4K restoration by The Criterion Collection, with support from Paramount Pictures and Park Circus, under the supervision and with the final approval of Terrence Malick."

Also, Walkabout's Criterion UHD is 66,458,898,190 bytes, which looks to me like a BD-66.

Thanks for the note, this is great news re. the restoration. Criterion having done it means one less problem to worry about. Now it should just be the encode.

I don’t know who’s adding disc specs to BR.com but the disc size is such a simple and easily identifiable info that it’s really disappointing they’d approve errors like that. I don’t want to speak for Days of Heaven without having the disc but based on past Criterion editions, I’d be surprised if they took a BD-100 for this relatively short film.

nicolas wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2023 7:38 pm

tenia wrote:These caps are so poorly downconverted, why even bother adding them ?

The details about the restoration provided by Lyon Film Festival are : "4K restoration by The Criterion Collection, with support from Paramount Pictures and Park Circus, under the supervision and with the final approval of Terrence Malick."

Also, Walkabout's Criterion UHD is 66,458,898,190 bytes, which looks to me like a BD-66.

Thanks for the note, this is great news re. the restoration. Criterion having done it means one less problem to worry about. Now it should just be the encode.

I don’t know who’s adding disc specs to BR.com but the disc size is such a simple and easily identifiable info that it’s really disappointing they’d approve errors like that. I don’t want to speak for Days of Heaven without having the disc but based on past Criterion editions, I’d be surprised if they took a BD-100 for this relatively short film.

From what i understand, anyone can submit disc specs on BR.com and they are approved by a moderator - i've done it to correct a disc quantity in the Star Trek Complete Films UHD set and it was reflected after some time.

But the size spec info for the UHD of "Blow Out" still lists as BD-100 when its a BD-66 (being a 108 minute film).

Similarly "After Hours" is even shorter at 97 mins - i don't believe its a BD-100 either.

Its inconsistent - "The Others" UHD is listed correctly as BD-66.
Edit: Just received the UHD of "The Others" - and to my surprise i see 3 ring layers on the disc - so its a BD-100 for a 104 minute film with 2 audio tracks (Atmos and Commentary).

The issue with blu-ray.com's database is that a correction can take weeks to be approved, for some reasons. When I wasn't banned there, I added tons of specs on discs I was receiving early as press screeners, and several of those had "guessed specs" that were wrong most of the time, and getting the corrections approved was a nightmare, from them being flat-out rejected for no reason to them being approved in a batch 4 weeks later.

I’ve received and fully watched my Shout UHD of Fargo, one of my favorites. We should be blessed that Shout got the rights and not Kino or Criterion. Nonetheless, I had major concerns due to all the snow and the persistent brightness that comes with it. It could have been a disaster and thank God it’s not. The encode is very good and all the snow moments look superb. Roger Deakins, who oversaw the restoration and certainly the DV grade as well, didn’t make it easy on the authoring house as he didn’t grade the snow towards something smudgy and slightly yellow-ish. The snow is bright and white throughout - glorious. The entire film looks immaculate with great grain exposure (in DV) but for whatever reason, there’s one scene that’s totally out of place. It’s the first time Marge inspects the scene of the crime with her partner. That entire scene has been heavily de-and regrained - Paramount-level bad. I’ve checked the bitrates and they don’t appear to be the culprit here. I’m not sure what went wrong there. I can only assume that Deakins wanted this particular scene to have that look as otherwise there’s no hint of manipulation. The only idea I have is that Deakins was forced to shoot that scene with a faster (grainier) film stock compared to the other snow scenes which used slower and thus less grainy stock. Such bright exteriors like this can afford to film with the slowest stock (today it’s the Kodak 50D) as so much light is available for proper exposure. That’s why the exteriors also have that little grain, if anyone’s wondering. Nothing wrong there.
The only times the UHD encode struggles is with lamps and light reflections in inside shots - these appear clipped. I can live with that as the snow is excellent throughout. Unless FiM or LSP Medien get the chance to encode this master down the road, this will be the definitive version. In my eyes, a top-tier upgrade and a must-own for fans of the film.