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David's encoding is so good two cuts fit onto a single disc without compromising the overall quality. If it had been authored by anyone else, I would have been concerned over there being 2 instead of 3 discs. There may or may not be an appreciable gap in the encoding (and given David's record, I'd expect the MoC being as good as or better than the Kino) but MoC has more extras including the excellent book originally edited by Nick Wrigley with two new pieces added. I can't imagine Welles fans not wanting the MoC at least in addition to the Kino. So I'm comfortable giving the UK disc a slight advantage.

It probably uses seamless branching, but I haven't seen it confirmed

I may be mistaken, but I hear kniselyb asking if there can be evidence of reputable reviewers comparing the two before making a call. I already have the MoC because I wanted it for reasons you’ve laid out well and that I share, but if I already had the Kino and MoC was being put in the best column without mention of the Kino, I might double dip assuming it’s far superior. That’s why the notes accounting for the reason for placement are so key - I just assume it’s for superior visual presentation, and if it’s in the red column I assume it’s vastly superior PQ to any other release available. I just spent a pretty penny importing the Eagle La La Land from Italy because of notes that it fixed brightness levels. Super helpful information. But if the Kino Touch of Evil is already visually arresting and might be comparable, it may be worth including that information so that people can choose for themselves whether extras are worth the edge.

therewillbeblus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:11 pm I may be mistaken, but I hear kniselyb asking if there can be evidence of reputable reviewers comparing the two before making a call. I already have the MoC because I wanted it for reasons you’ve laid out well and that I share, but if I already had the Kino and MoC was being put in the best column without mention of the Kino, I might double dip assuming it’s far superior. That’s why the notes accounting for the reason for placement are so key - I just assume it’s for superior visual presentation, and if it’s in the red column I assume it’s vastly superior PQ to any other release available. I just spent a pretty penny importing the Eagle La La Land from Italy because of notes that it fixed brightness levels. Super helpful information. But if the Kino Touch of Evil is already visually arresting and might be comparable, it may be worth including that information so that people can choose for themselves whether extras are worth the edge.

Thank you that is what I am asking. I own the Kino and only want to double dip if it is much superior in video quality not just the extras. I was hoping for comparisons in the video

I get Fidelity in Motion is great. But just don't want to double dip if it is the same video quality or just a tad better. I am assuming this was placed in reference column just due to FIM reputation. But Kino should get mentioned they had a great transfer

kniselyb wrote:

therewillbeblus wrote: Thu Sep 28, 2023 10:11 pm I may be mistaken, but I hear kniselyb asking if there can be evidence of reputable reviewers comparing the two before making a call. I already have the MoC because I wanted it for reasons you’ve laid out well and that I share, but if I already had the Kino and MoC was being put in the best column without mention of the Kino, I might double dip assuming it’s far superior. That’s why the notes accounting for the reason for placement are so key - I just assume it’s for superior visual presentation, and if it’s in the red column I assume it’s vastly superior PQ to any other release available. I just spent a pretty penny importing the Eagle La La Land from Italy because of notes that it fixed brightness levels. Super helpful information. But if the Kino Touch of Evil is already visually arresting and might be comparable, it may be worth including that information so that people can choose for themselves whether extras are worth the edge.

Thank you that is what I am asking. I own the Kino and only want to double dip if it is much superior in video quality not just the extras. I was hoping for comparisons in the video

I get Fidelity in Motion is great. But just don't want to double dip if it is the same video quality or just a tad better. I am assuming this was placed in reference column just due to FIM reputation. But Kino should get mentioned they had a great transfer

The Kino has a fantastic transfer without a doubt. David’s argument about putting the cuts on two discs was that due to new developments in encoding (and his expertise I might add), he could comfortably make it a two-disc set without compromising the image quality. If I remember correctly he said that the BD-100’s should rather be used for other films where they’re truly necessary instead of simply encoding on triple-layer discs just for the sake of doing so. I appreciate that other labels who don’t have David M’s as encoders use BD-100’s frequently (Shout, Kino etc.) and “max-out” the space in order to prevent bigger compression issues.

I’ve always understood the Eureka set as more complementary to the Kino (which most fans of the film likely had before the Eureka announcement) as it arrived so late. The main draw are the bonus features, at least they will be for me. All in all, I don’t believe FiM achieved any miracles and improved on the Kino specifically for the image (audio I have no idea) and, again, it seems like that was never the key reason for the release in the first place.

Thanks for that. I know Fidelity in Motion is great and if this came out before Kino its a no brainer. I'm sure having it on 2 discs is no issue if done right and FIM does things right I have no doubt . But if the video is not that much better I'll stick with Kino. If someone actually does a comparison I would be interested in the review

kniselyb wrote:Thanks for that. I know Fidelity in Motion is great and if this came out before Kino its a no brainer. I'm sure having it on 2 discs is no issue if done right and FIM does things right I have no doubt . But if the video is not that much better I'll stick with Kino. If someone actually does a comparison I would be interested in the review

I’m not planning on picking up the set before Eureka’s next sale, so hopefully someone else will be able to take a look.

Finch and co were previously consulting reputable reviewers who post frequent, lengthy and thorough rundowns on the other forum to determine category-assignment here, so I imagine those same voices are active there and will be weighing in shortly if they haven't already

Having given this some more thought, I figured some people may in fact choose to hold on to the MOC BD for the extras as well as the 1.33:1 presentations and just stick with the 4k Kino, since the MoC UHD only gets one or two new video pieces and two new essays on top of what's already on the UK BD. So it's probably fairest to call it a tie between the two UHDs for PQ but still leave the MoC as the more comprehensive import, and possibly a solid PQ upgrade for both UHDs over the Universal BD which appeared after MoC's.

However, those who want the 1.37:1 version would want the Koch media blu over the MoC blu as it is clearly the best PQ for those versions.

The Psychic (Severin) caps

It compares favorably to the Blu-Rays but there may be a superior release from a UK or German label in the future.

Finch wrote: Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:46 am Having given this some more thought, I figured some people may in fact choose to hold on to the MOC BD for the extras as well as the 1.33:1 presentations and just stick with the 4k Kino, since the MoC UHD only gets one or two new video pieces and two new essays on top of what's already on the UK BD.

Okay, does anyone feel the exclusive Kino extras (I guess in particular, the commentaries by Tim Lucas and Imogen Sara Smith) are good enough -and provide unique perspectives not found elsewhere- to warrant a double dip if one already has the MoC?

I don’t want three copies of this movie taking up shelf space, but I love it enough where I will if there’s strong scholarly value

I bought the MOC of Touch of Evil having already owned the Kino, so for me right now it’s « keep both or offload the Kino and keep only the MOC or get rid of the MOC while it’s still sealed ».

I’m not a fan of Kino’s stacked discs.

I’ve watched U-571 on StudioCanal’s UHD last night and wrote my thoughts here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=99

All in all, I was happy to have seen it with my own eyes as previous reports that mentioned DNR were overblown. It’s a solid PQ upgrade with a subtle but essential color grading flaw that prevents this release from being a definitive edition. Sound is all-around phenomenal in 5.1.

And an update regarding Walkabout on UHD by Criterion. I took the plunge due to the different extras and Second Sight not (yet) mentioning anything about a forthcoming UHD. They usually announce bigger projects like this in advance and especially when competitor products release, so maybe they decided against one for now.

But after seeing how horrible the Criterion looks, Second Sight would be foolish NOT to release one. The Criterion is a macroblocking disaster in DV. I’m confident in stating that this is the worst UHD encode I’ve seen so far from them. Cloudy / bright skies, sunlit pavements or buildings and all the usual highlights in general are so atrociously ugly and blocky with huge frozen digital clumps. Blue skies, normal colors and all the rest looks wonderful with no apparent low-pass filtering. This encode rivals Studiocanal’s worst and certainly a low point for “The Criterion Collection, dedicated to gathering…. at the highest technical level”. Yeah, sure. The authoring house by the way is NEXSPEC according to the booklet. So unless Pixelogic changed their name, they changed authoring houses to what appears to be one Studiocanal and Curzon use. If this is the new standard going forward, I’ll stop buying Criterion discs unless one of my favorites receives an edition that’s unlikely to emerge elsewhere (Days of Heaven).

I’ve been looking forward to the restoration in native 4K but this disappointment in combination with my UHD having a number of circular scratches settles everything and makes me already regret having supported them further with Moonage Daydream.

P.S. Ironically, The Princess Bride was still encoded by Pixelogic and looks genuinely great in 4K. So yeah, they changed authoring houses to probably one of the worst ones out there.

Chris, if possible, could you let us know going forward which party encodes the Criterion releases when you upload your packaging pics? This will be a key buy / avoid indicator for me and probably a few others as well.

Looking about NexSpec in Linkedin : CEO is Keith Prokop, former CEO of Pixelogic and Radius60 before that. What's interesting is that the timeline clearly shows Radius60 turned into Pixelogic, but Prokop turned into a Pixeloogic consultant at the time he became CEO of NexSpec (january 2021).

NexSpec's CTO did the same : Radius60 then Pixelogic but switched to consultant at Pixelogic in June 2021 when starting at NexSpec.

My guess is it's indeed a different company, started by former Pixelogic top management persons, but still debatable technical skills on the field level.

It's a shame that 4 years after telling face-to-facePeter Becker and Fumiko Takagi they need to get their crap together regarding encodes and that they have no excuse because Fidelity in Motion is like 20 minutes of subway away from their NY offices, they're managing to finally change supplier... but for worse ? Come on.

How are things going for their Blu-rays ? Should I be worried about those too ?

tenia wrote:Looking about NexSpec in Linkedin : CEO is Keith Prokop, former CEO of Pixelogic and Radius60 before that. What's interesting is that the timeline clearly shows Radius60 turned into Pixelogic, but Prokop turned into a Pixeloogic consultant at the time he became CEO of NexSpec (january 2021).

NexSpec's CTO did the same : Radius60 then Pixelogic but switched to consultant at Pixelogic in June 2021 when starting at NexSpec.

My guess is it's indeed a different company, started by former Pixelogic top management persons, but still debatable technical skills on the field level.

It's a shame that 4 years after telling Peter Becker and Fumiko Takagi they need to get their crap together regarding encodes, and that they have no excuse because Fidelity in Motion is like 20 minutes of subway away, they're managing instead to finally changing but for worse.

How are things going for their Blu-rays ? Should I be worried about those too ?

Unfortunately I don’t know yet. Walkabout has the old 2010 (?) BD inside. I’ll probably get Moonage Daydream at some point next week. In the meantime, I hope Chris can let us know what he sees in the booklets.

Is the Walkabout 4k worse looking than the BD from Criterion?

I'd also really appreciate getting a heads-up on the booklet notes. Hopefully Criterion don't stop providing those stats, and the new authoring house get their shit together fast if that's their new permanent gig. Maybe future UHDs will be split between Pixellogic and NexSpec.

I was already more inclined towards the Second Sight edition of Mean Streets and this development seals it for me. With Paramount's seeming reluctance to license to UK labels, I really hope that whoever ends up encoding Days of Heaven for Criterion takes proper care of it.

Finch wrote:Is the Walkabout 4k worse looking than the BD from Criterion?

I'd also really appreciate getting a heads-up on the booklet notes. Hopefully Criterion don't stop providing those stats, and the new authoring house get their shit together fast if that's their new permanent gig. Maybe future UHDs will be split between Pixellogic and NexSpec.

I was already more inclined towards the Second Sight edition of Mean Streets and this development seals it for me. With Paramount's seeming reluctance to license to UK labels, I really hope that whoever ends up encoding Days of Heaven for Criterion takes proper care of it.

Regarding the BD, I’d say all in all yes. The inconsistency of the UHD is horrendous. The unaffected portions of the frame are flat-out phenomenal alongside some of the worst possible encoding in skies etc.

I’ve made screenshots of the UHD: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=59

Another addition to the reference category: The Wicker Man 4K / DV. Phenomenal release all around. Exceptional encode, restoration, color grade, sound mix and literally everything we want to see. If only more people would work on our favorites that way…

nicolas wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:34 pm Another addition to the reference category: The Wicker Man 4K / DV. Phenomenal release all around. Exceptional encode, restoration, color grade, sound mix and literally everything we want to see. If only more people would work on our favorites that way…

Great to hear. Now if they would just release a version that's reasonably-priced..

therewillbeblus wrote:

nicolas wrote: Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:34 pm Another addition to the reference category: The Wicker Man 4K / DV. Phenomenal release all around. Exceptional encode, restoration, color grade, sound mix and literally everything we want to see. If only more people would work on our favorites that way…

Great to hear. Now if they would just release a version that's reasonably-priced..

I’m sure a standard edition with The Final Cut appears down the line in the UK at least. If that’s the only cut you’re interested in, the extra swag of the Collector’s Edition probably isn’t worth it.

I'm interested in the other cuts if they're worth seeing, but I believe I've only seen the Final one. If it's worth the $ for those options, that's what I'd be spending it on vs packaging swag

therewillbeblus wrote:I'm interested in the other cuts if they're worth seeing, but I believe I've only seen the Final one. If it's worth the $ for those options, that's what I'd be spending it on vs packaging swag

I’m currently going through the bonus features on the Final Cut discs and these are definitely the essential ones. The second UHD has the other two cuts and an audio commentary by Robin Hardy, Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward which could be interesting. The director’s cut reinstates even more additional material which sadly only exists on tape. Although I haven’t seen the entire director’s cut (I watched the Final Cut), it seems that the great majority of the additional Director’s Cut material happens in the beginning and is not much more than backstory that was in my opinion rightfully excised from the film. Hardy himself didn’t put these scenes back in for his Final Cut and only a scene with Woodward’s character in the church (sourced from a 35mm print held at Harvard) remained in the beginning before the opening credits. He considered that scene essential but after having seen the film, I also feel that this scene is redundant as a very similar shot of the same scene occurs later in the film as part of the OCN footage, so therefore part of the original theatrical cut. The other inserted Final Cut moments for me were more a curiosity than essential storytelling material. For my next viewing, I’d technically choose the theatrical cut as it’s OCN-sourced throughout with only little second-gen intermediary material for damaged section… but the encoding on that second UHD isn’t as strong as the FC on its own disc. The TC still looks good on its own (likely encoded by the same great facility) but the bitrate is significantly lower. I presume they didn’t perform seamless breaching on that disc and encoded the film twice on a BD-100. The FC grain is significantly crisper whereas the other two cuts look as if they’ve been slightly filtered (understandably). Again, that disc has better encoding than so many other UHDs but I’ll gladly take the couple extra Final Cut minutes and enjoy a phenomenal UHD instead of “just” a very good one.
Nonetheless, I’m glad to have the big set as I’m looking forward to the commentary.

Thanks for the breakdown, nicolas!