1990s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 2)

[Murdoch]

My recommendation for everyone is Raoul Ruiz's Time Regained, I've never read Proust but this film was gorgeous in its cinematography and costume design. It will definitely make it into my top five.

[ptatler]

Su Friedrich's Sink Or Swim - very highly recommended, top 10 lock for me.

Thanks for the recommendation zedz. I've queued it up.

I judge from a few of your posts that you're the resident A-G guy. Any other recommendations for the 90s? Are shorts that didn't necessarily get theatrical distribution acceptable? I think this applies to a few of Brakhage's and Maddin's.

I'm trying to get my hands on a copy of the Yang film. Difficult.

For your consideration: these are a few dark horses/underdogs that will probably/definitely appear on my list, pending reassessment:

CLEAN, SHAVEN
MUSIC OF CHANCE
VINCENT & THEO
A MIDNIGHT CLEAR
BLOOD AND WINE
CROUPIER
THE LIMEY

[zedz]

I judge from a few of your posts that you're the resident A-G guy.

Not really. There's a bunch of us, but there's a lot of background noise around here! I'd love to see more diversity in the films that get discussed and nominated for the decade lists, but the further away you get from the canon and Hollywood, the less consensus there is and the less chance there is that anybody else has seen the films you're championing.

Any other recommendations for the 90s?

My personal viewing is rather patchy and unsystematic, but some of the experimental films in my ridiculously long shortlist are (in addition to the Friedrich and Reeves works already discussed):

Black Ice (Stan Brakhage, 1994) - incredible, almost 3D intensity, even on DVD
Alone: Life Wastes Andy Hardy (Martin Arnold, 1998) - I know I've mentioned this before, maybe even in this thread
Rules of the Road (Su Friedrich, 1993)
Rock Hudson’s Home Movies (Mark Rappaport, 1992) - (if this counts as experimental)
Sweetness (Rachel Davies, 1992) - extremely simple but devastating: a harrowing narrative of sexual abuse lipsynced and gender-reversed
Hotel E (Priit Parn, 1992) - Bizarre Estonian animation that I've seen several times without once suspecting what it all means.
Outer Space (Peter Tscerkassky, 1999)
World of Glory (Roy Andersson, 1991)
Alone (Dmitry Kabakov, 1999) - Again, I don't know if this counts as experimental, but it's hardly run-of-the-mill: a century of Russian history and hardship refracted through the eyes of a ninety-year-old woman
Leche (Naomi Uman, 1999)
Cremaster 2 (Matthew Barney, 1999) - I'm no Barney fan, but this was by far the most entertaining section of the cycle.
Film ist (Gustav Deutsch, 1998)
London (Patrick Keiller, 1994)

And there are some great music videos as formally innovative as any of the above. Two by Michel Gondry leap to mind: 'Sugar Water' (Cibo Matto) and 'Let Forever Be' (Chemical Brothers). The latter is beautifully executed, but the former is so ingeniously conceived you wonder how Gondry goes about the most basic everyday procedures, like climbing a flight of stairs. Also 'Ali Click' (already mentioned and linked, I believe).

Are shorts that didn't necessarily get theatrical distribution acceptable?

Absolutely. Anything on imdb is admissable, as is anything not on imdb, if you can vouch for its existence.

[domino harvey]

Wait, can we actually vote for the "Let Forever Be" music video? It's definitely the only music video I ever would vote for in one of these lists

[Cronenfly]

For your consideration: these are a few dark horses/underdogs that will probably/definitely appear on my list, pending reassessment:

MUSIC OF CHANCE

Sounds very intriguing; do you know of a DVD of the film that's not P&S like the R2 UK release (which is the only one I could seem to find)?

[John Cope]

For your consideration: these are a few dark horses/underdogs that will probably/definitely appear on my list, pending reassessment:

A MIDNIGHT CLEAR

Glad to see someone acknowledge this. It probably is Gordon's best film from the decade, though Mother Night is also absolutely exceptional. Still, there is an astonishing, singular luminescence to Midnight Clear, a diaphanous quality which is hard to encapsulate or articulate properly. At his best Gordon refined his Kubrickisms to a fine art, distilling their essence, understanding their strengths.

Too bad this one is still unavailable as far as I know on a decent DVD. There was talk for awhile of re-releasing it in the proper aspect ratio but that hasn't happened.

[tojoed]

[ For your consideration: these are a few dark horses/underdogs that will probably/definitely appear on my list, pending reassessment:

VINCENT & THEO

This is one of my swapsies. Glad to see someone else championing it.

[ptatler]

For your consideration: these are a few dark horses/underdogs that will probably/definitely appear on my list, pending reassessment:

MUSIC OF CHANCE

Sounds very intriguing; do you know of a DVD of the film that's not P&S like the R2 UK release (which is the only one I could seem to find)?

Unfortunately, I've only ever seen it on VHS. The only time I saw it in OAR was the first, when it aired on PBS. It's a great little existential nightmare. I haven't seen anything else by Haas (ANGELS AND INSECTS is on my catch-up list).

Just an APB:

In composing the first draft of my list (123 films, 76 wishlist films... Gud Gott!), I went and took a look at the '90s top tens for my three favorite film writers:

Michael Sicinski
Victor J. Morton
Theo Panayides

All three offer a good triangulation of opinion that's well outside of critical orthodoxy. Sicinski is a champion of avante-garde/installation pieces and the like (his "Stars of Criticism" list is also a great resource), Morton is a self-confessed "American conservative whose favorite Austrian film artist is Michael Haneke rather than Arnold Schwarzenegger," and Panayides is just brilliant.

Looking over their lists was a helpful memory-jog for me. Check 'em out if you fancy it...

[zedz]

Wait, can we actually vote for the "Let Forever Be" music video? It's definitely the only music video I ever would vote for in one of these lists

Yes you can. Now we can both gripe about its relegation to the also-rans list mid-year.

[zedz]

It's a great little existential nightmare. I haven't seen anything else by Haas (ANGELS AND INSECTS is on my catch-up list).

I wasn't over the moon about Music of Chance, but Angels and Insects was a big step down, in my opinion. Stiff and arid, but it does have weirdness on its side.

For those interested in Vincent and Theo, I believe the R1 disc recently went out of print, so you may want to swoop now. And if you're watching that, you absolutely have to make room for Pialat's Van Gogh as well.

[swo17]

Wait, can we actually vote for the "Let Forever Be" music video? It's definitely the only music video I ever would vote for in one of these lists

Yes you can. Now we can both gripe about its relegation to the also-rans list mid-year.

Count me in on the griping/celebrating(...?) I'm glad you also mentioned "Sugar Water," and there are probably a few other music videos out there worth getting excited about (um, "Come to Daddy" anyone?) but for the purposes of the project, I am willing to throw all my weight behind "Let Forever Be."

[zedz]

Count me in on the griping/celebrating(...?) I'm glad you also mentioned "Sugar Water," and there are probably a few other music videos out there worth getting excited about (um, "Come to Daddy" anyone?) but for the purposes of the project, I am willing to throw all my weight behind "Let Forever Be."

"Come to Daddy" is pretty funny / creepy, but I don't think it will make my list. I also like Cunningham's early videos for the Auteurs, which were unaccountably left off the DVD compilation (which wasn't exactly extravagantly packed, and images from 'Light Aircraft on Fire' made it into the menus, which suggests a last-minute reversal). Cunningham's cover for the band's 'Kids Issue' EP (below) is the prototype for his Aphex Twin videos, and 'Light Aircraft on Fire' uses the same trick with animals.



Here are the videos, anyway:
Light Aircraft on Fire
Back with the Killer Again

[John Cope]

I haven't seen anything else by Haas (ANGELS AND INSECTS is on my catch-up list).

The Blood Oranges should be as well. For me it is without a doubt Haas' best film. Though not exactly the Hawkes it is a terrific, sensitive adaptation with extraordinary confidence, not only in itself but in us to recognize how much remains undeclared and unrecognized by those on screen. The film impresses me greatly because, as with much of his other work, Haas builds his entire edifice on those things and if we neglect them the critical irony of the project will also go unappreciated.

It's an even greater accomplishment here, however, since the "story" is so straightforward and seemingly direct enough. It's tone is becalmed and every incident handled so evenly that when the "shocking ending" arrives we are, initially, as confused and uncomprehending as the characters. The final scenes, though, subtly re-orient us and allow a gradual dawning realization or understanding to emerge, regardless of whether it's shared with anyone on screen. What's interesting to me is that in interviews John Hawkes himself seemed to have a more fully worked out or specifiable attitude toward the main character/narrator here than Haas does. Somehow it works very well either way.

[domino harvey]

Here's Let Forever Be for those who've never had the pleasure/want to have the pleasure again

[zedz]

Here's Let Forever Be for those who've never had the pleasure/want to have the pleasure again

Hey, you even got me to watch it again. I'm always amazed by how little of it is CGI: 21st century Busby Berkeley by way of 1970s video effects. What a joy. It almost allows you to forgive the existence of Oasis. Almost.

[ptatler]

I'd forgotten how utterly awesome Let Forever Be was. I noticed Academic Hack included the Prodigy "Smack My Bitch Up" video in one of his '90s top tens. Brazen, but not my cup of tea.

I finally caught up with all the posts in this forum and was wondering how many Big Nineties films will ultimately make it into our pseudo-canon. I'm especially thinking of the top-grossers, the awards-bait, and the Indiewood stuff that made a splash (and the intersection of all three, i.e. PULP FICTION).

Certain films that keep jumping on and off my list fall into one or more of these categories (TERMINATOR 2, JURASSIC PARK, SCHINDLER'S LIST, FARGO, GOODFELLAS, QUIZ SHOW, TRAINSPOTTING, L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, BLAIR WITCH PROJECT, SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, UNFORGIVEN, etc.).

The artistic merits of these can be argued endlessly, but they all have an epochal quality (not to mention a lot of entertainment value) that make them, for me, as list-worthy as a SATANTANGO or BEAU TRAVAIL.

What do you guys think? Am I the only resident Philistine who may cast a vote in the direction of the above? I do applaud whoever it was that "came out" with the announcement that they're voting for three Nicolas Cage action movies. Who'd of thought that CON AIR would become an iconoclastic choice?

Two other notes in this long-winded screed:

1) Anyone up for voting on the top 10 or 20 performances of the '90s as well?

2) I'm surprised at the tenacity of BLAIR WITCH in my memory/affections. I won't deliver a verdict until I rewatch it (it's been nine years), but -- if nothing else -- it's definitely the decade's most unique blockbuster (aside from, maybe, TITANIC). It also seems even more prescient now (for better or worse). I'm not just talking about reality TV and CLOVERFIELD. It seemed to prefigure the "rise of the amateur" that has marked the '00s Internet-centered culture -- political, popular, journalistic, and otherwise. Thoughts?

Sorry about the big-ass post.

[domino harvey]

I finally caught up with all the posts in this forum and was wondering how many Big Nineties films will ultimately make it into our pseudo-canon. I'm especially thinking of the top-grossers, the awards-bait, and the Indiewood stuff that made a splash (and the intersection of all three, i.e. PULP FICTION).

Certain films that keep jumping on and off my list fall into one or more of these categories (TERMINATOR 2, JURASSIC PARK, SCHINDLER'S LIST, FARGO, GOODFELLAS, QUIZ SHOW, TRAINSPOTTING, L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, BLAIR WITCH PROJECT, SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, UNFORGIVEN, etc.).

Of the titles quoted above, only Quiz Show, Pulp Fiction, and possibly Unforgiven will be appearing on mine-- but I do need to revisit Silence of the Lambs (and you didn't mention it but I need to revisit the Fugitive as well)

My childhood be damned, I won't be voting for either of the Jurassic Park movies, but I would like to let others question my sanity by admitting that I prefer the much-maligned Godzilla redux to either. Not to Armond out on you all, but I don't get the vitriol expended towards the flick-- it's a silly action movie done much better than that ID4 dreck would have led me to expect. There's too many great movies this decade for me to find room for it, but I am at least sympathetic to the film.

[colinr0380]

ptatler, I would recommend checking out The Last Broadcast to compare with Blair Witch. It is eerily similar in places and despite not having the same 'you are there' feel to the terror as the more famous film, it still manages to be extremely creepy in the way it carries out its own move from professional detachment to total audience involvement and implication.

I also agree with domino on Godzilla. It makes no sense whatsoever and gets a little too dark (as in "I can't see anything!") but I thought it was good goofy fun and better than ID4 or The Day After Inconvenient Truths. I had a similar reaction to Stargate - unchallenging fun and it could have been handled a lot worse.

DISCLAIMER!: This is not to suggest that I consider The Last Broadcast one of the best films of the 90s but it does make an interesting companion piece to Blair Witch. And there is no way even the two half-decent Roland Emmerich films are getting into my top 50!

(My blockbuster exceptions would probably be Speed and The Matrix. Mr Reeves makes a great blank slate action star! And Jackie Brown as the only Tarantino that may make it in)

[Binker]

Yep, Quiz Show, which will likely rank highly, and Pulp Fiction, which will likely rank not so highly, are the only two of those that will make my list as well. Definite no on Unforgiven, and I actually just rewatched Silence of the Lambs a couple days ago. Such a confident, smoothly constructed film, difficult not to admire. That said, it probably won't squeak into my top 50. BTW I can't for the life of me understand why the commentary has such a strong reputation... It's essentially Jodie Foster pontificating about hero archetypes and traditional folk tale structures for 2 hours, apparently never once even considering that that might not be the most effective model for approaching the film. Her two interpretations of the film, that of it being a modern folk tale and a realistic representation of a true female hero almost seem to contradict each other. The more she buys into this hero mythology, making claims like "heroes are born, not made, and difficult events in their lives just serve to reveal them as heroes" which seem highly inapplicable to the real world, the more she subverts what she says drew her to the project in the first place, it's representation of the real, three dimensional, authentically female heroine.

Another highlight is some FBI agent telling the story of how a crew member on the film being against the death penalty really pissed him off, so he decided to play him a tape of teenage girls getting tortured, evidently changing his mind.

A Bronx Tale is another movie that might make my list which seems to fit into your model. Utterly derivative of Scorsese, of course, including the gratuitous use of pop music, but there's a lot in it to love. Good Will Hunting, which was my favorite film for a long time, will make it.

BTW I watched Dick last night and loved it. I'll write more either tonight or tomorrow, for now I'll just comment on what a surprising and strange film it is, made entirely by its execution. This could have so easily been not only a bad movie, but an utterly terrible one. It's the kind of script that so often, instead of invoking genuine laughter, plays like "oh I get it, that's pretty smart, haha." Like the creators accidentally forgot to actually make the material funny. Not at all the case here. First credit I think has to go to Dunst and Williams, who do something wonderful and hard to pin down with the walking cliches they are asked to play; make them kinda not cliches. They don't exactly play for realism, but they're performances are so different from typical Valley Girl skit comedy. Somehow there is just more there.

[swo17]

Certain films that keep jumping on and off my list fall into one or more of these categories (TERMINATOR 2, JURASSIC PARK, SCHINDLER'S LIST, FARGO, GOODFELLAS, QUIZ SHOW, TRAINSPOTTING, L.A. CONFIDENTIAL, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, BLAIR WITCH PROJECT, SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, UNFORGIVEN, etc.).

The artistic merits of these can be argued endlessly, but they all have an epochal quality (not to mention a lot of entertainment value) that make them, for me, as list-worthy as a SATANTANGO or BEAU TRAVAIL.

What do you guys think? Am I the only resident Philistine who may cast a vote in the direction of the above?

Well, for me anyway...

Definitely: Fargo, Goodfellas

Maybe: T2, L.A. Confidential, Silence of the Lambs

[Murdoch]

Trainspotting will make mine since it's the only one mentioned that I still feel any strong feelings toward, although my list is going to have some widely maligned films on it with the inclusion of Street Fighter and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. 8-[

[colinr0380]

zedz, I noticed that you listed Patrick Keiller's London in your most recent recommendations. I've just rewatched the film and would certainly recommend it myself, but I was also wondering what your impression of Robinson In Space was? Personally I prefer London since a trip around Britain stretches the material a little too thinly, and there is more of a reliance on reciting facts and figures than revealing fascinating little details perhaps because, if I'm being harsh, there does not seem to be as much of a familiarity with or interest in the rest of the country as there was in the capital. That is a comment on the characters more than the filmmaker I suppose, but when the film takes a short detour to France I wonder whether it is significant of a lack of interest in Britain (or the UK) as a whole. On the other hand there is still a great deal to like about the film, Scofield's vocal performance is again perfect and I love films that capture ephemeral places and moments.

[Binker]

Nikita: what a despicable little film this is. I try to finish all the movies I start, but it's 35 minutes in and I can't take it anymore.

[domino harvey]

BTW I watched Dick last night and loved it. I'll write more either tonight or tomorrow, for now I'll just comment on what a surprising and strange film it is, made entirely by its execution. This could have so easily been not only a bad movie, but an utterly terrible one. It's the kind of script that so often, instead of invoking genuine laughter, plays like "oh I get it, that's pretty smart, haha." Like the creators accidentally forgot to actually make the material funny. Not at all the case here. First credit I think has to go to Dunst and Williams, who do something wonderful and hard to pin down with the walking cliches they are asked to play; make them kinda not cliches. They don't exactly play for realism, but they're performances are so different from typical Valley Girl skit comedy. Somehow there is just more there.

Glad to hear you liked it, Binker! Like many great films, it succeeds on several levels, and you've already pegged a few. First, the bizarre novelty of its very existence. This is a film ostensibly marketed as being for teenagers but so esoterically linked to the Watergate scandal and "getting" the many many references that it's core audience is who exactly? Me? I still can't believe it even got made-- I mean, what not just teen comedy but comedy period has a De Gaulle joke?

You're quite right to single out the performances of Williams and Dunst-- Williams is such a gifted comedic actress here and especially in my 00s list #1 pick, the Baxter, that it's a shame she doesn't do comedy more often. And surely this is Dunst's best performance? This is getting into subjective reactions to comedy, but there are moments that never fail to make laugh no matter how many times I watch them, like Williams and Dunst playing with the dog for the first time, capping with Dunst's brilliant line reading of "Yeah" after Williams makes her inane plea for world peace.

While I agree that the actresses (and indeed, the entire supporting cast as well) put in great work here, I feel special consideration needs to be given to the script, which gives these girls intricately empty dialog that rarely ceases to be funny (and indeed might become funnier with every subsequent reviewing of the film). In a lesser film, these girls wouldn't be treated with such a novel humanist touch-- the picture has some laughs at their expense, but ultimately Fleming is obviously quite taken with his characters. Presumably this affection is due in some part to the not so subtle symbolic role they play, but still, consider how difficult a task this was to pull off. The characters aren't particularly bright, sure, but they possess such a gleeful innocence that the film never acts superior to its subjects. How many satires can say that?

But mostly, why I think this film is so good, is that it's a film that deeply understands and accurately emulates the paranoid cinema of the 70s. Besides feeling like a film from the period as opposed to indulging in period fetishization, the picture follows the tradition of great conspiracy films like Executive Action and the film Dick lovingly spoofs, All the President's Men-- Dick presents a perfectly plausible explanation for Watergate that, despite being patently false, shows how easily conspiracies can be made to fit given facts. If I may be so bold, this film is the conspiracy film, if just in honestly showing the problems inherent in ascribing to any conspiratorial tale. If the silly tale of two teenage dog walkers can explain the intricate minutiae of Watergate, how much stock can be put into any theories that run counter to the accepted truth?

[zedz]

zedz, I noticed that you listed Patrick Keiller's London in your most recent recommendations. I've just rewatched the film and would certainly recommend it, but I was also wondering what your impression of Robinson In Space was? Personally I prefer London since a trip around Britain stretches the material a little too thinly, and there is more of a reliance on reciting facts and figures than revealing fascinating little details, perhaps because, if I'm being harsh, there does not seem to be as much of a familiarity or interest in the rest of the country as there was in the capital. On the other hand there is still a great deal to like about the film, and I love films that capture ephemeral places and moments on film.

I liked them both, but confess to remembering London better. It might have been sealed in my memory by seeing it at a packed festival screening with a large number of vocal, outraged pensioners / expats who expected a conventional picturesque travelogue. Nothing like floating in a sea of hate to galvanise ones' own positive response to a film! I have the BFI disc around here somewhere, so I'll refresh my memory and comment.

On the list of biggies above:
I liked L.A. Confidential when it came out, but haven't seen it since. I admire a mainstream Hollywood film with a gay hero that isn't about having a gay hero.
Fargo may be my favourite Coen Brothers film, but that doesn't put it anywhere near my top fifty.
Goodfellas I always enjoy and admire, but again, it's nowhere near my list. I think The Age of Innocence would be my favourite Scorsese in a patchy decade, but I doubt that will register either.
Blair Witch Project I find fascinating in terms of narrative form, in the sense that the film itself is just one element in a nest of extra-filmic narratives that account for a lot of its impact, but I don't know how I'd rank the film itself. It was effective when I saw it, but again, I haven't gone back to it, or felt the need to.

Most of the others I find OK to blah. I'm completely mystified by the ardour with which some people regard Unforgiven, which just seemed like an efficent enough retread of a handful of late Ford and Hawks films, but I really don't get the Eastwood cult in general. The big exception for me is Schindler's List, which I loathe to the point of finding it offensive: Spielberg's most cynical film, which is saying something.