Olive Films

[Matt]

If the subtitles are not part of the original film image (literally burned into the film print), then they are not "burned-in." If they are merely digitally generated but cannot be turned off, they are "forced."

[swo17]

If the subtitles are not part of the original film image (literally burned into the film print), then they are not "burned-in." If they are merely digitally generated but cannot be turned off, they are "forced."

OK, but some forced subtitles (e.g. those on Wild Side releases) can be bypassed with a little technical know-how. Olive's may not have been burned into the original film element, but they have been "burned in" to the transfer presented on disc, whatever you want to call that.

[Matt]

Okay, I think I get it now. There's probably another word for that. Embedded, maybe? Ingrained?

[repeat]

How about just plain old fashioned fucked up?

I'm genuinely shocked to hear this about Olive, whose releases I've been following with much excitement and of which I have a long shopping list. I can perfectly well live with the fact that some distributors might stipulate forced subtitles for business reasons - which is indeed so commonplace that I've fixed my regular viewing setup so that I can easily remove them - but burning/embedding subtitles into the video file itself is tantamount to actually destroying image information; you might as well cut off 5% of the frame or brand your fucking company logo in the corner or whatever.

Have Olive ever addressed this issue publicly, or has anyone asked them about it and got a reply? It's in such wild contradiction with their public image, I can't believe they're doing this on purpose. Also difficult to imagine why distributors would impose different sets of conditions on different publishers (so that everyone else gets away with forced, but Olive have to burn in theirs). Can they possibly be unaware of the difference between forced and burned-in subs?

[HJackson]

Thrilled about the upcoming Borzage discs. I think I've heard good things about I've Always Loved You before, but does anybody have any thoughts on the other two? I'll be snapping these up as soon as they're released - his late silent and early sound work confirms him as an indisputable master, so exploring his later work must surely bear at least some fruit.

[Jonathan S]

I watched Magnificent Doll the other day (broadcast by the BBC) and found it extremely tedious and unengaging. Beyond a few nice bits of camerawork, I can't think of anything positive - or even interestingly negative - to say about it. The casting is weird, the verbose script a mess with some scenes ending abruptly, and I was often unsure how seriously it was intended to be taken. I say this as an admirer of Borzage's 1920s and 30s work and of course the sublime Moonrise.

Oddly enough, many of Olive's Republic titles are among the most frequently broadcast movies (of their period) in the UK!

[domino harvey]

Maybe we should have an Olive FAQ post or thread so we can just point people to that instead of having the same arguments/outrages/discussions over and over?

[Props55]

Perhaps you're right, Domino.

FWIW though I would like to point out that unless Olive has access to the original camera elements (highly doubtful) of the foreign language films they have the rights too, then they most likely are dependent on 35mm library prints with "burned in" (i.e. "photochemically etched") subtitles. These prints were prepared at the time of release by either the the original producing entities for the English-speaking world market or by the American distributors upon aquisition for the North American market.

Take the case of FACE TO FACE. When Paramount contracted to distribute it stateside they stipulated a theatrical feature length reduction (whether such version existed beforehand I'm not sure) and were delivered a masterprint or dupe neg with which to prepare subtitles. The technique at the time was to "burn in" the titles permanately on the physical prints. Unlike todays digitally produced subtitles they are non-removable. Actually, with the right software and digital scrubbing tools they probably could be "surgically removed" but it would require an extraordinary amount of time and effort and the cost would be unduly prohibitive for a business model like Olive.

Since Olive does not have access to the original elements they must use the existing componets provided by Paramount which generally consists of the aforementioned distribution prints (which are given a modest digital dust 'n' scrub transfer) or, if they're lucky, a recent SD or HD encode.

In short, to replace "burned in" subtitles on foreign language films and replace them with digitally removable ones is cost prohibitive. As to the oft discussed topic of cc for hearing impaired I've no idea what the cost would be but it would undoubtedly be a much simpler operation than replacing old subtitles.

[Mr Sausage]

Maybe we should have an Olive FAQ post or thread so we can just point people to that instead of having the same arguments/outrages/discussions over and over?

If someone wants to write one up and PM it to me, I'll make it the first post in the thread and attribute the post to you.

[colinr0380]

Take the case of FACE TO FACE. When Paramount contracted to distribute it stateside they stipulated a theatrical feature length reduction (whether such version existed beforehand I'm not sure) and were delivered a masterprint or dupe neg with which to prepare subtitles. The technique at the time was to "burn in" the titles permanately on the physical prints. Unlike todays digitally produced subtitles they are non-removable. Actually, with the right software and digital scrubbing tools they probably could be "surgically removed" but it would require an extraordinary amount of time and effort and the cost would be unduly prohibitive for a business model like Olive.

Since Olive does not have access to the original elements they must use the existing componets provided by Paramount which generally consists of the aforementioned distribution prints (which are given a modest digital dust 'n' scrub transfer) or, if they're lucky, a recent SD or HD encode.

This is very interesting. Would Olive have been able to maybe circumvent Paramount and go directly to the Swedish production companies to pick up 'clean' international elements that they then would be able to put on removable subtitles themselves (and maybe pick up the longer version as a handy byproduct)? Or would any release of Face To Face in any form in the US be entirely dependent on using Paramount's elements, with no negotiation around that possible?

Or would this be economic also, in the sense that Olive's release of Face To Face in any form is likely dependent on having access to the Paramount library of titles and the elements that come with that, so it would be economically unrealistic to go to such lengths to scour the world for a 'clean', maybe longer version of the film even if they could get Paramount's blessing to do a release of such a version of the film, if one were available?

[BillWatkins]

Several people including myself have asked MisterLime on the HTF forums questions about Face to Face regarding the master, TV version, Blu-ray, etc. This is what he's said:

Also, everything else from the Paramount library will be released on BLU-RAY very soon, with the exception of FACE TO FACE which only has a standard def master acquired from Studio Canal - by far the best elements available anywhere.

They had no choice with this release. The material was acquired from CANAL+, the material from the US studio was in horrible shape. All of their other releases were re-mastered in HD, this was the only SD release. But I'm still happy to finally see this film released.

Many fans would be glad to see some of these out, no matter what shape they are. I was looking forward to at least seven of these. A few years ago, they found a respectable 16x9 SD master for FACE TO FACE in France and released it on DVD instead of dropping the release, but got killed for it by some crazy fans. Most of the actual critics gave the release positive reviews and were happy to finally see the film released, but all it takes is a few more bad fan reviews and people start questioning the label, etc. The original negatives for some of these films were badly damaged and that's why they were dropped. We all know that there are some labels out there who would've released the VHS master on DVD.

[zedz]

This is very interesting. Would Olive have been able to maybe circumvent Paramount and go directly to the Swedish production companies to pick up 'clean' international elements that they then would be able to put on removable subtitles themselves (and maybe pick up the longer version as a handy byproduct)? Or would any release of Face To Face in any form in the US be entirely dependent on using Paramount's elements, with no negotiation around that possible?

I'm sure they could have done that if they'd really wanted, but it would have been commercially insane, since they'd end up having to pay two different companies for the film (plus the extra work of doing a new subtitle file). Since they were releasing Face to Face in R1, they would have had to pay the R1 rights holder (Paramount), even if they didn't use their elements. Now, if Paramount never distributed the integral version of the film in the US, they probably wouldn't have held the rights for that version, so Olive would likely have had to negotiate the rights for that version anew with the Swedish rightsholder, in addition to paying them for access to the elements (if they had them), as well as the potential high costs for a new transfer (has this version ever been released on home video?) By this point, Olive's release of Face to Face would have been costing them maybe three or four times more than any of their other releases, and quite likely more per unit than they'd be getting in!

EDIT: Just to clarify - the option for "circumventing" the local rightsholder is bootlegging or piracy. It would be like you or me deciding to port the Hong Kong BluRay of The Grandmaster and release it in the US, then try to defend ourselves from a massive Weinstein lawsuit by claiming "but it's a different version of the film!"

[peerpee]

Further to what zedz said, in circumstances like this it would help if interested parties all around the world banded together and nailed the elements for everyone. Takes a lot of organising, and that in itself takes time that a lot of distributors simply can't afford to spend.

It would help if there were better organisational structures in place for films that fall into this category. How is this film ever going to be seen properly otherwise? It needs at least a 2K scan from clean, best-surviving elements.

[Perkins Cobb]

So I guess I can finally give up on that Fantoma release of Dead Pigeon on Beethoven Street that I've been waiting on since 2000.

Also eager to finally see the DeToth / Stanwyck collaboration The Other Love, even though it doesn't have much of a rep.

[kingofthejungle]

Leo McCarey's The Bells of St. Mary's is coming to Blu-Ray via Olive in November.

[domino harvey]

No Man of Her Own getting the Blu-ray upgrade. So glad I didn't bite on the DVD last sale

[Ashirg]

Back in May, MisterLime indicated that all Olive releases from Paramount except Face to Face will get blu-ray upgrades. There are total of 6 titles left:
Buccaneer, The (1938)
Lawless, The (1950)
No Man of Her Own (1950)
Pony Express (1953)
Something to Live For (1952)
Tropic of Cancer (1970)

2 Godards and a Pialat will also get blu-ray upgrades:
Ici et ailleurs (1976)
Numéro deux (1975)
Police (1985)

[Mathew2468]

Maybe they'll blu The Devil Probably if they're blu'ing Police.

[JamesF]

Days before its release and still no review or confirmed specs for the Tam Lin BD - argh! Praying that Olive have done this one justice...

[Telstar]

This may be another of those unanswerable questions, but can anyone who's seen the Olive BD of Force of Evil comment on the choice between upgrading from the old DVD (which I have) or splurging on Olive's Plunder Road, which I've never seen at all. Looking for a little more noir to go along with my planned purchase of The Big Combo at the current DeepDiscount sale and my funds are unfortunately a bit limited at the moment.

[kingofthejungle]

If you're concerned about image quality, the Blu-Ray of Force of Evil looks terrific.

[Telstar]

If you're concerned about image quality, the Blu-Ray of Force of Evil looks terrific.

Yes, definitely interested in that element. Thanks.
But also want to factor the quality of the image upgrade of FoE against the thrill of seeing something that's completely new to me.

[FrauBlucher]

Martinis shaken or stirred

[hearthesilence]

2 Godards will also get blu-ray upgrades:
Ici et ailleurs (1976)
Numéro deux (1975)

Weren't these shot on now-primitive video stock? If so, I can't imagine a Blu-Ray release being a significant improvement.

[Mathew2468]

So I shouldn't wait to buy Numéro Deux?