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Thank you very much. That's a great find.

The original Alex North score for 2001 is being released in a limited quantity of 3000 next month.

Antoine Doinel wrote:The original Alex North score for 2001 is being released in a limited quantity of 3000 next month.

This has been released before I think.... right?

The previous CD release of North's rejected "2001" score (over ten years ago) was a re-recording conducted by the late Jerry Goldsmith. This Intrada release contains the original mono master recordings, which were long thought to be destroyed before this announcement. I bet there will be a featurette on the forthcoming "2001" SE on the various scores (including the late Frank Cordell's score, which adapted Mahler for the entire film...those recordings do exist, and are owned by Cordell's wife, so I'm interested in more information about that as well).

A bit of trivia...although it's probably safe to assume he would've been rejected anyway, the first person Kubrick approached to score this was Bernard Herrmann, but because the film was so long, Herrmann doubled his fee, which Kubrick denied. Coincidently, Herrmann was also the first approached to score "Lolita," but declined when Kubrick insisted Herrmann adapt in his score a theme that had already been composed by (I believe) Kubrick's then brother-in-law. I wonder what Herrmann would've done with "Lolita?" It certainly would've been 180 degrees different than Nelson Riddle's score (which is very 'poppy' 60s).

flyonthewall2983 wrote:Link to that interview.

Wow, what a great show. Thanks for the link.

Coming to Lincoln Center/Walter Reade.

We are presenting a restored, previously unscreened 35mm internegative print of Barry Lyndon. It has been timed and color-corrected under the supervision of Leon Vitali, Kubrick's right-hand man for many years and the actor who plays Lord Bullingdon in the film. We are pleased that Mr. Vitali will introduce several of our screenings of Barry Lyndon, to discuss the technical aspects of the production and his own role in the film.

Barmy wrote:Coming to Lincoln Center/Walter Reade.

Wow. I wish I could be there! But maybe this is what they will source the high-def release from (although it's already been shown in high-def on HDNet Movies - don't know the source there).

Dylan wrote:I bet there will be a featurette on the forthcoming "2001" SE on the various scores (including the late Frank Cordell's score, which adapted Mahler for the entire film...those recordings do exist, and are owned by Cordell's wife, so I'm interested in more information about that as well).

While we're playing the "what-if" game, what would have happened if György Ligeti had followed through on his threat to sue MGM for copyright infringement? (They even admitted to him that it was an open and shut case, but said that their lawyers would drag it out for so long that Ligeti couldn't possibly afford to keep it going).

Fortunately, Ligeti liked the film, and almost certainly appreciated the massive new exposure (he must be far and away the best-known composer of that whole 1950s/60s avant-garde generation, at least in terms of instant recognition of the major works), so I doubt there was ever any question of forcing Kubrick to replace all the Ligeti tracks. But it's probably a good thing that he had some backup material, all things considered.

Open and shut in what way?

I'm intrigued - this was the first I'd ever heard of the whole incident with MGM not clearing the use of Ligeti's music. Did Kubrick ever address this in an interview? Was it a misunderstanding, or a mix up between different territories (UK vs US)? It doesn't seem possible that Kubrick would actually release a film without having made every attempt to clear the music within it. There's a story from the Clockwork Orange shoot where Kubrick asked McDowell to sing whatever song he knew, and after he performed the scene with "Singin' in the Rain," Kubrick immediately made a phone call to get the rights.

Jean-Luc Garbo wrote:Open and shut in what way?

Blatant and unarguable copyright infringement - apparently MGM's legal department cleared the performing rights but didn't think to ask whether the composer was still alive. Which he was (until less than a year ago, in fact).

Ligeti was living in Vienna at the time, oblivious of the use of his music in the film. But when a friend tipped him off, he went to the cinema, armed with a stopwatch, and was appalled to discover that there was more than half an hour's worth of his music in the film.

So he instructed his agent to make enquiries, and apparently MGM were extremely candid about the legal position - if it came to court, Ligeti would win overwhelmingly. But they also made it clear that they'd ensure that the case was stretched out for so long that it wouldn't be worth anyone's while, so he ultimately gave up.

But Ligeti doesn't seem to have had any problems with Kubrick, who of course went on to use more of his music in The Shining and Eyes Wide Shut - this time with full permission. And Ligeti even contributed to the posthumous documentary Stanley Kubrick: A Life In Pictures.

The real irony is that there's every likelihood that Ligeti might not have authorised the use of his music had he been approached in advance (unlike many of his contemporaries such as Krzysztof Penderecki or Toru Takemitsu he never wrote an original film score) - but he admitted that it was brilliantly effective in context, and it's also undoubtedly the case that much of his reputation stems from the film. Virtually every Ligeti fan I know, very much including myself, first encountered his music on the 2001 soundtrack, and it's still one hell of a showcase.

Whose music was it that Kubrick used and altered/manipulated in a film? Was that Ligeti? Wasn't that part of the issue as well? That since it was changed, etc. he (Kubrick) felt it didn't need to be cleared? Or am I misremembering?

you gotta be kidding me wrote:Whose music was it that Kubrick used and altered/manipulated in a film? Was that Ligeti? Wasn't that part of the issue as well? That since it was changed, etc. he (Kubrick) felt it didn't need to be cleared? Or am I misremembering?

It was indeed Liegeti's, and while I can't be certain, I believe Liegeti was upset that his music had been altered without consent, ect. I don't remember anything about Kubrick thinking he didn't have to clear the rights, although it's probable.

To be even more specific, the piece in question was 'Aventures', an electronically reprocessed version of which can just about be discerned towards the end of the Stargate scene - though I bet Kubrick was banking on no-one recognising it.

As far as I understand the rights situation, I don't think Kubrick was to blame for any of this - he asked MGM's legal department to do all the necessary clearances and they did clear the performance and recording rights. Part of Ligeti's complaint, in fact, was that everyone involved got paid except for him!

Not to be persnickety, but Kubrick used a good deal more than just Adventures, he also used excepts from Atmospheres, Lontano, Lux Aeterna and the Requiem. Anyhow, I thought I would make that perfectly clear lest anyone get the impression that he only borrowed one little ditty.

kinjitsu wrote:Not to be persnickety, but Kubrick used a good deal more than just Adventures, he also used excepts from Atmospheres, Lontano, Lux Aeterna and the Requiem. Anyhow, I thought I would make that perfectly clear lest anyone get the impression that he only borrowed one little ditty.

I was talking about the music that he modified, as opposed to the music that he used generally. If I remember rightly, Ligeti's beef with MGM was twofold - that his music was used at all, and that 'Aventures' was modified without consent.

In fact, if you want me to be really precise/persnickety, the pieces used for 2001 were:

Atmosphères (1960) - opening of the film in some prints, plus excerpt at the end of the Stargate sequence;
Aventures (1962) - very short electronically modified excerpt towards the end of the Stargate sequence;
Requiem (1965), second movement ('Kyrie') - most/all appearances of the monolith, plus the bulk of the Stargate sequence.
Lux aeterna (1966) - the moon sequence.

Lontano (1967) was used in The Shining, while Eyes Wide Shut made repeated use of the second movement of the piano suite Musica ricercata (1953).

Ligeti's work has also been used to underscore other films. The night-time stakeout scene in Michael Mann's Heat was scored to the first movement of the Cello Concerto (1966) (which works brilliantly, apart from a really ugly splice early on), while a murder scene in Dominik Moll's Lemming was underscored by the jangling harpsichord piece Continuum.

Incidentally, if anyone has a copy of either the Wergo or Teldec CD recordings of the Requiem (Ligeti was very precise about timing, so both work equally well) and Artificial Eye's CD of Béla Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies, try playing the music alongside with the hospital scene - the synchronisation is uncannily exact.

MichaelB wrote:Incidentally, if anyone has a copy of either the Wergo or Teldec CD recordings of the Requiem (Ligeti was very precise about timing, so both work equally well) and Artificial Eye's CD of Béla Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies, try playing the music alongside with the hospital scene - the synchronisation is uncannily exact.

I prefer Pink Floyd with The Wizard of Oz myself.

tavernier wrote:

MichaelB wrote:Incidentally, if anyone has a copy of either the Wergo or Teldec CD recordings of the Requiem (Ligeti was very precise about timing, so both work equally well) and Artificial Eye's CD of Béla Tarr's Werckmeister Harmonies, try playing the music alongside with the hospital scene - the synchronisation is uncannily exact.

I prefer Pink Floyd with The Wizard of Oz myself.

Funny you should mention that.

Funny you should mention that.[/quote]
The drugs people are taking when they "discover" such synchronization must be the greatest ever....

I don't take much stock in the other synchs, but this one is quite extraordinary. Even straight.

flyonthewall2983 wrote:I don't take much stock in the other synchs, but this one is quite extraordinary. Even straight.

I agree flyonthewall, my roommates and I used to synch up Echoes to the last chapter of 2001 in college on a regular basis and we were always amazed by it. It's hard for me to even watch the last chapter without Echoes playing these days.

We also heard that Meddle, the album that includes Echoes, synchs up well to the first 40 mins or so of The Shining. We tried that a couple of times and from what I remember it somewhat worked, although we were usually not sober when doing this.

Although I said earlier I don't take much stock in the other synchs, I mean that nowadays. Back when the whole DSOTM/Wizard of Oz thing became news, I did an experiment with selected Floyd albums and some of the VHS tapes we had. Most of them actually worked, strangely enough lol.

PS: I would suggest playing Dark Side at the beginning of 2001 (when that terrible MGM logo comes up, after the overture).

New Edit: The "Echoes"/Jupiter And Beyond The Infinite video.

An appreciation of Barry Nelson's small role in The Shining.

Never heard that interpretation of Ullman's "role" before. It seems a bit speculative. The excised ending explained that Jack's body was never found (I'm taking that from wiki, so it may be wrong). So Stanley could have cut it because that added an unnecessary "mystery" about what Jack was.

flyonthewall2983 wrote:Link to that interview.

Thanks for the link. On google video you can also find Day of the Fight and Flying Padre. The first time I've seen these shorts. Day of the Fight was pretty interesting, but Flying Padre was rather dull. Does anyone know if it's possible to find The Seafarers on the net?

Found The Seafarers as well.