218 Le cercle rouge

[Kracker]

you didn't imagine that the fact that they had so many more UHD discs in stock was a sign no one was really buying them?

[therewillbeblus]

If I understand correctly, won't this transfer be wildly different? I have the StudioCanal blu, which has a distinct color scheme compared to the previous Criterion blu, and it sounds like they're going to use that version (which, if I recall correctly from david hare et al., is the preferable and most "correct" version)

[fdm]

you didn't imagine that the fact that they had so many more UHD discs in stock was a sign no one was really buying them?

No they were all still stacked behind the counter, not even put out yet, so I was probably the first customer to even notice them (release day like I said).

[captveg]

OR they could just put some of their Blu-ray discs in single clamshells for customers so they arent pressing these expensive UHD discs that will never be used. Even if it's for a handful of customers. They should have let the demand speak for if they should continue the bluray only option.

My understanding is that the disc isn't the most expensive part, it's the unique packaging. So it's cheaper to do all one type of printing/packaging for the sleeve/insert and throw in the UHD disc than to do two separate releases when a good size of the potential BD-only consumer base may already have the prior BD release.

[captveg]

If I understand correctly, won't this transfer be wildly different? I have the StudioCanal blu, which has a distinct color scheme compared to the previous Criterion blu, and it sounds like they're going to use that version (which, if I recall correctly from david hare et al., is the preferable and most "correct" version)

Since they are presumably printing a new run of the BD disc it's possible they replaced the source video file on the disc with the 1080p version of the new master. The specs aren't clear on this one way or the other.

[tenia]

OR they could just put some of their Blu-ray discs in single clamshells for customers so they arent pressing these expensive UHD discs that will never be used. Even if it's for a handful of customers. They should have let the demand speak for if they should continue the bluray only option.

My understanding is that the disc isn't the most expensive part, it's the unique packaging. So it's cheaper to do all one type of printing/packaging for the sleeve/insert and throw in the UHD disc than to do two separate releases when a good size of the potential BD-only consumer base may already have the prior BD release.

On a $50 DF release, the UHD can cost $10 to produce, the BD $3, then you'll have the cost of the extras, of the movie license, obvisouly the overheads of the label, the margin the label is doing on this. The packaging may be expensive, possibly the most expensive section of the cost structure, but not by much within all this. You need to go to very special XXL packaging to end up with a cost structure where it actually costs 40 to 50% of the overall production costs.

[movielocke]

There's still the option to buy the new release which includes the BD if one is not UHD capable. It's really only the DVD-only crowd that is out of luck on this reissue, which is also the case for most of the other announced releases of 2022 so far.

Yeah, but there's something obnoxious about paying the higher price point to have a UHD disc one has no intention of using, especially since Criterion is still clearly offering this alternative with other UHD titles. I wonder if they'll add a blu-only option on the page soon, or what kind of rationale will be included in the script for all the angry emails getting sent to Mulvaney as we speak

Scalper effect. I sold my blu for $100 two or three years ago the day I posted it. (The most I’ve ever sold a criterion for) If it’s got the proven demand to generate a higher price why not just do the higher priced release?

Sarcastic cynicism aside, I think they’re experimenting with different 4K release options on a case by case basis and probably have an inscrutable internal rationale for testing this release strategy on this title.

And my actual guess is the rationale was “okay, that sounds good, we’ll give it a whirl”

[captveg]

If they feel at a future point that a BD only option should be available again they could reissue that edition fairly easily. Movielocke may indeed be correct that they want to see how sales are affected with this approach to the market.

[Tuppence]

Unfortunately, the 4K master is as drenched in yellow as any horrible Bologna or Eclair grading. You can see this clearly in the clip and stills on Criterion's page for this release.

It's really confusing, because StudioCanal's previous HD remastering (for the European Blu-ray) looked excellent, colour-wise; that is, appropriately cold and wintry. This new one seems to be putting a sun-dappled wash over footage of snow flurries and stripped-bare forests. You can compare them side-by-side at Caps-a-holic.

[tenia]

I'm quite certain that the older Studio Canal master wasn't faithful. It's cold as if Melville was shooting exactly all this color movies the same way, most likely because Pierre Lhomme was the one reference person for all those and these master rather reflect his own view of them than anything more case-by-case related.
Le cercle rouge's older master also is clearly dated and electronic looking.
Finally, at least on the BD, while the newer restoration definitely is warmer and quite Hiventy-looking, it certainly isn't homogeneised and blanket-tinted like what Ritrovata and Eclair are known to do. Actually, going by caps-a-holic, in a lot of cases, you can see how the grading isn't that different from the Criterion disc.

[Drucker]

Kind of bummed to see people still comparing isolated screencaps of Melville films to judge what they perceive the right color to be. I watched this film for the first time ever with the new Studio Canal blu. I thought the viewing experience was perfect, the film was exceptional, and color-wise it was the closest a home video has looked color-wise to the print of Le Samourai I've seen.

[tenia]

I think the issue rather is larger than this :
- It's clear that this has been graded by Hiventy, as it definitely bears their touch.
- Just because it does doesn't automatically makes it a nightmare. This clearly is lighter than, say, what Eclair and Ritrovata are doing.
- The matter often pops up when doing A/B comparisons with older masters than definitely have structual institutional problems regarding their gradings. This exacerbates the differences from the new grading, but it doesn't mean they're a problem as such. When comparing to a most likely abnormally neutralised master, anything less neutral will look weird.
- Which also means we should stop thinking the older masters look "excellent" and "appropriately" this or that. Why should it be appropriate, except our cultural and thematical acceptance that Melville has done some rather cold-looking gangster movies so this one should look like this too ? For all I know, Pierre Lhomme is the main responsible for how Le samourai, L'armée des ombres and Le cercle rouge looked so far on digital video, except he has only photographed one out of these 3, and on the one he did, he was consulted by both Canal and Criterion and he ended up yielding 2 different results. And since Lhomme died in 2019 and Le cercle rouge was restored in 2020, it might very well be that we're seeing what happens without Lhomme's specific input.

I certainly understand people scrutinizing those, as there are legitimate worries about those new gradings (including this one), but it doesn't help when lumping together very different levels of grading signatures' intensities.

[Matt]

Is there a Cliff's Notes version of which transfer is generally considered preferable between the old CC Blu-ray and the new SC 4K? Or are opinions very mixed?

As someone who saw this in 35mm multiple times in 2003 and has bought multiple home video editions, I am pleased with the 2011 Criterion Blu-ray. The 2010 SC Blu-ray was, to me, too dark in several scenes and had some terrible DVNR added. The Criterion was an improvement in every way.

The caps I see of the SC UHD do indeed look too warm, too “natural” in comparison with what I remember from 2003. If a release print is the basis for color reference for the new restoration, when was that print made? 2003? 1970? Sometime in between? How closely did 2003 prints conform to earlier prints? What involvement did Melville or Henri Decaë have with the color timing release prints of the reference print’s vintage? What stock is it printed on? How was it stored?

Unless all these questions can be answered authoritatively, I don’t think we can have a definitive opinion on what’s “correct.” There are only preferences now, so choose the one that looks “best” to you, I guess.

[swo17]

Well now I feel like an idiot for already unloading my old Blu-ray for relatively little...unless it ends up being packaged along with the UHD

[therewillbeblus]

Criterion's response to a Blu-Ray.com user about the color grade on their upcoming 4k:

I'm glad you're excited for our upcoming 4K UHD + Blu-ray release of LE CERCLE ROUGE!

The version we are releasing in March 2022 is the recent STUDIOCANAL restoration, in which they used a different print for color reference than we used on our previous DVD & Blu-ray releases. This new digital restoration was created by STUDIOCANAL in 4K resolution from the 35 mm original camera negative and an interpositive at Hiventy in Joinville-le-Pont, France. A 35 mm positive print was used as a color reference. We stand by this release.

You are of course welcome to read reviews that you trust after the release, if those would be helpful in your decision whether this is the version you'd like to purchase. Happy Holidays!

Best,
Jon M

Regardless of what is ‘right’, I find the bleaker color palette of the SC blu to be more meaningful to what I get from the film: namely that the sterile atmosphere these characters populate manifests as a gravitational force of spiritual (rather than corporeal) betrayal. When taken this as a given, schematically representing powerlessness over this objective worldview in the way the film is shot, the details for how the characters are constantly surrendering to and -within that compromise- ascending from their milieu's pull, to actualize meaningful exchanges of intimacy, become more pronounced and consequentially profound. I like that I have to work a bit harder as a viewer to discern these moments against the formidable portrait of what they’re up against and working within to achieve these existential wins, and I’m not sure the film would play as celebratory regarding the meditations on the power of agency if the exterior space were brightly lit with a sunny glow.

Having said that, I’ll probably pick this up anyways, if only to give myself an opportunity to find new significance under different conditions. Maybe it won’t change anything. Maybe the new color grading will reveal other invisible depths and allow me to have an entirely novel experience. Maybe I’ll hate it and keep it on the shelf after a single viewing. But while I’m disappointed based on a very personal relationship to the movie that’s heavily rooted in its colorization (something I don’t know if I’ve ever really cared about before, aside from this year’s Memories of Murder, and the WKW set on reasons of principle), I’ve gleaned enough merit from recontextualization upon revisits under alternative conditions to know there’s always a chance for discovering more layers from an art work, if one’s willing to take it.

[swo17]

Cyclical arguments about proper color timing of various Criterion releases moved here, so that this thread can return to its proper focus of why aren't they reissuing the Blu-only edition

[therewillbeblus]

My comment was aiming to use color to analyze the themes of the film, and was specifically and conscientiously geared towards avoiding objective critiques or cyclical arguments on “color timing” - I realize that was misinterpreted and ignited a very unnecessary and frustrating sidetrack, but it would be cool to remain in this thread in case anyone wants to engage in a conversation about how the bleak aesthetic affects their viewing experience, especially once we all see the UHD transfer and can compare on a thematic level. I’d love to come back to that and do another thematic analysis using my initial impression as a focal point.

So do these readings belong in the other thread since they involve "color" full-stop, or should I cross-pollinate between threads since they have to do with analytical film discussion based on visual aesthetics, as many posters here engage in outside of technical discussions? (Genuine question, at this point I'm very confused on where the 'line' is on this one)

[swo17]

Sorry, we'd clearly gone off topic but I was too hasty in moving the whole discussion over. I've now tried to move comments back here to the extent that they apply just to this film. No offense intended to those whose posts I moved

[therewillbeblus]

Not at all, I was trying to deviate the inevitable color-timing arguments on objectivity back to a constructive film-related analysis to begin with, so just double-checking it was received that way- thanks

[FrauBlucher]

Beaver...UHD

[swo17]

It's pretty hard to know Le Cercle Rouge's most authentic look and we tried to use the pool table felt as a barometer.

The cue balls are yellow

[kuzine]

The cue balls are yellow

Nothing wrong with balls that color in carambole from what I've usually seen in these parts. [Not meant as proof or anything, just another "it's hard to know"].

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

What's up with the font change in the opening title?

Perhaps they had the OCR and then added the titles digitally afterwards? Are the rest of the opening titles also different from the old blu-ray?

[tenia]

I just checked my older Studio Canal D (from the 2017 UK Melville boxset) and all the opening credits have indeed a different font from the 2020 disc. Interestingly, both credits are perfectly stable, which seem to suggest that in both cases, the labs worked with a text-less source and digitally added the titles. I have no idea which version is the "right" one.

[jegharfangetmigenmyg]

Would indeed be interesting to see how it looked on an old French 35mm. Could it be that they left it of the original print for international markets to add translated titles before release? Even so, it's a bit odd, especially with this film which is known by its French title, and not The Red Circle, in the English speaking markets.