criterionforum.org

EddieLarkin wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:11 pm

Nanoc wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:45 pm and the million dollar question... can anyone confirm yet if it was color corrected like the Shout Selects? This is whats going to make or break it for me

They're all up at https://caps-a-holic.com/
All look better than the Shout Selects apart from Fist of Fury.

Actually, Way of the Dragon also looks quite close to the Shout's presentation and I think I'd tend to prefer Shout's over Criterion's. On The Big Boss, however, the Criterion corrections highlight, by comparison, the overly red aspect of Shout's color-corrections.

It is, in any case, fascinating to see how minimal most of the corrections brought by Criterion seem, but how they're able to eliminate most of Ritrovata's grading signature.

tenia wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:31 am

EddieLarkin wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:11 pm

Nanoc wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:45 pm and the million dollar question... can anyone confirm yet if it was color corrected like the Shout Selects? This is whats going to make or break it for me

They're all up at https://caps-a-holic.com/
All look better than the Shout Selects apart from Fist of Fury.

Actually, Way of the Dragon also looks quite close to the Shout's presentation and I think I'd tend to prefer Shout's over Criterion's. On The Big Boss, however, the Criterion corrections highlight, by comparison, the overly red aspect of Shout's color-corrections.

It is, in any case, fascinating to see how minimal most of the corrections brought by Criterion seem, but how they're able to eliminate most of Ritrovata's grading signature.

Could you help me understand how to do the comparisons on that page? When I choose the 2 DVDs Shout and criterion. Then I can click on the preview pic, and it puts the criterion over it. Is the preview pic supposed to be the shout then below? It's really faded out to show the overlayed pic so its hard to compare. I wish I could just have a side by side of the 2. Seeing if you or anyone could explain how to compare the 2 clearly on there. Thanks!

domino harvey wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:01 am

My key takeaway from Enter the Dragon is that I don't find Bruce Lee charismatic in the slightest and indeed found him rather obnoxious.

Given every review I've ever read on Bruce mentions his charisma, this is definetly a first!

Nanoc wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:45 pm Could you help me understand how to do the comparisons on that page? When I choose the 2 DVDs Shout and criterion. Then I can click on the preview pic, and it puts the criterion over it. Is the preview pic supposed to be the shout then below? It's really faded out to show the overlayed pic so its hard to compare. I wish I could just have a side by side of the 2. Seeing if you or anyone could explain how to compare the 2 clearly on there. Thanks!

It is just the larger pic, but you mouse over to change from one to the other. It's a far superior way to compare than side by side.

You can select fullscreen comparison in the top right of each pic to display a full 1080p (or 2160p if a disc is a UHD) comparison. Clicking on the image itself will show you a detail shot instead.

You should have just listened to us Dom. Tsk, tsk.

Not really a big fan of any of these, as I think outside of Bruce Lee performance they're all pretty poor in terms of narrative and film technique compared to other Hong Kong films at the time. Fist of Fury is generally my go to when I feel like revisiting them, just because its the most heavily remade and it has most of his iconic moments, plus I enjoy his part as the telephone repair man. Way of the Dragon definitely has more of his ideas about fighting, but I don't remember enjoying overall as much. The Big Boss is just a bit bloodier than the others, and Enter the Dragon I don't remember liking anything about at all.

The portrayal of the Japanese in Fist of Fury is indeed over the top, though the Hong Kong Film Archives book on Golden Harvest, mentions that the Japanese distributors were quite eager to get ahold of Fist of Fury and said it wouldn't be a problem marketing it over there as it would just be seen as what some some specific evil people were doing at that point in history. Lo Wei actually directed a more nuanced version of a very similar plotline in None But The Brave (1973) with Cheng Pei-Pei and Jō Shishido as the villain.

EddieLarkin wrote: Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:01 am

Nanoc wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:45 pm Could you help me understand how to do the comparisons on that page? When I choose the 2 DVDs Shout and criterion. Then I can click on the preview pic, and it puts the criterion over it. Is the preview pic supposed to be the shout then below? It's really faded out to show the overlayed pic so its hard to compare. I wish I could just have a side by side of the 2. Seeing if you or anyone could explain how to compare the 2 clearly on there. Thanks!

It is just the larger pic, but you mouse over to change from one to the other. It's a far superior way to compare than side by side.

You can select fullscreen comparison in the top right of each pic to display a full 1080p (or 2160p if a disc is a UHD) comparison. Clicking on the image itself will show you a detail shot instead.

Thank you .. just to clarify.. if I click criterion first. Then shout. And the Big pic comes up. That is criterion ( if chosen first) and then when i click it overlays the second (shout) ? Something about it isn't very intuitive lol but im trying my best

That's correct, though there is a logo to tell you this in the top left corner of the full size cap, which will change to the other release when you mouse over.

Can anyone tell me if there are Cantonese language tracks on the Hong Kong films? Bruce spoke mostly Cantonese in these. I had a box set (long gone) which included English, Mandarin and Cantonese language tracks but it doesn't appear as if the Criterion set has this feature.

ando wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:02 pm Can anyone tell me if there are Cantonese language tracks on the Hong Kong films? Bruce spoke mostly Cantonese in these. I had a box set (long gone) which included English, Mandarin and Cantonese language tracks but it doesn't appear as if the Criterion set has this feature.

Yes they all have Mandarin, Cantonese (which is what I’ve been watching them in myself) and English.

Enter the Dragon only has English though.

Thanks; makes it a must a must have (especially at 50% off).

ando wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:02 pm Can anyone tell me if there are Cantonese language tracks on the Hong Kong films? Bruce spoke mostly Cantonese in these. I had a box set (long gone) which included English, Mandarin and Cantonese language tracks but it doesn't appear as if the Criterion set has this feature.

The Mandarin dubs are the ideal versions though.The Cantonese versions wern't made until the 1980s and, in the case of The Big Boss, the music and sound effects were totally revised.

Orlac wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:19 am

ando wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:02 pm Can anyone tell me if there are Cantonese language tracks on the Hong Kong films? Bruce spoke mostly Cantonese in these. I had a box set (long gone) which included English, Mandarin and Cantonese language tracks but it doesn't appear as if the Criterion set has this feature.

The Mandarin dubs are the ideal versions though.The Cantonese versions wern't made until the 1980s and, in the case of The Big Boss, the music and sound effects were totally revised.

Thanks. I’d assumed the Cantonese tracks had Bruce’s original vocals on them but apparently the Hong Kong films never featured them.

ando wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:57 pm

Orlac wrote: Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:19 am

ando wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:02 pm Can anyone tell me if there are Cantonese language tracks on the Hong Kong films? Bruce spoke mostly Cantonese in these. I had a box set (long gone) which included English, Mandarin and Cantonese language tracks but it doesn't appear as if the Criterion set has this feature.

The Mandarin dubs are the ideal versions though.The Cantonese versions wern't made until the 1980s and, in the case of The Big Boss, the music and sound effects were totally revised.

Thanks. I’d assumed the Cantonese tracks had Bruce’s original vocals on them but apparently the Hong Kong films never featured them.

Even Cantonese language films typically don’t feature the actors doing their own voices. They usually get a sound-alike to do all the dubbing as Hong Kong films were typically made without direct sound until the 90s. For instance, Jackie Chan didn’t begin to dub his own audio for his films until the late-80s, if I recall.

36 Chambers was completely dubbed? No!

The 36th Chamber Trilogy shows the transition - Part 1 is Mandarin, the sequels Cantonese.

Ah, well the English track is preferable in either case.

Can it be that Enter The Dragon is the only feature length film which includes the actual voice of Bruce Lee? May seem minor but for an actor that’s a vital part of his or her skill set eliminated. Certainly the Hong Kong films are the worse for not having Bruce’s vocals (signature caws, screeching and yelps aside - assuming that was him!).

There's a common claim that Lee dubbed the tiny amount of English dialogue spoken by Robert Baker's character in the Mandarin version of Fist of Fury, and it does sound much like him. (Here's the scene in question.) Maybe it's addressed on the commentary.

I suppose it's possible Lee dubbed his own voice in his fifties films, which unlike the martial-arts movies were made in his native Cantonese. But as noted above, Hong Kong films weren't usually dubbed by the actual actors. I can't tell one way or the other since I have no idea what Bruce Lee actually sounded like as a kid, and next to no idea of what he sounded like speaking Cantonese—there's hardly any publicly-available recordings of Lee in Cantonese, this being the main exception.

Bruce can be heard speaking English in MARLOWE (1969). The reason his voice can be heard in the 1950s Cantonese films is that those were shot sync-sound.

Lee did voice Petrov (Robert Baker) in FIST OF FURY. For WAY OF THE DRAGON, he dubbed the black thug ("I'd like some Chinese spare ribs"), the cop ("Hands up, against the car") and can also be heard dubbing some of the lines for the Boss played by John Benn (specifically "Take him out but be careful with the gun in public") - for the most part, the boss is dubbed by Ted Thomas).

Sort of off-topic, but another morsel from BIG BOSS II is now out for us to see

https://vimeo.com/439830825

Vimeo also has Matthew Polly's Criterion extra on the little dragon.

So now that I've seen all of these, my recommendations would be Fist of Fury with liberal use of the fast forward button or Game of Death Redux, actually. I do think he's a legend, though his films are unfocused and overlong

Orlac wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:32 pmThe 1978 GAME OF DEATH (which made me a Bruce Lee fan!) isn't a total write-off. It has one of John Barry's best post-60s scores,and the fight between Bob Wall and Kim Tai-Chung (the Bruce double) in a locker room is terrific.

Dean Jagger comes across as alarmingly senile - like Mr Burn being portrayed by Grampa Simpson!

I do agree (Colleen Camp and Gig Young are also pretty good in their small roles), it just never feels like anything that Bruce Lee himself might have done if he'd had any say in it, and I still shudder a bit at the use of the actual funeral footage as part of the faked death subplot.

Yes, Dean Jagger is shockingly frail-looking in this. Whilst it kind of fundamentally undermines the climax I kind of love the moment where:

Spoiler

'Bruce' finally gets to the big boss himself and strangles Jagger's character before lowering him to the floor in the most tender and gingerly way possible to make sure that he doesn't get hurt on the way down!

You can tell it's not a genuine Bruce film - there's no way Lee would have had a movie where he gets his ass handed to him in not one, but two fights!

Even the HK distributors seemed to agree - the Hong Kong version replaces the poorly handled skirmish in the theatre (which was made without Sammo's invovelment, I believe) with a dymanic duel between "Bruce" and Casanova Wong, which is one of my all-time favourite HK fight scenes.

cdnchris wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:54 pm I'll eat my words from my last comment a little bit: I haven't watched Game of Death yet, and still think Enter the Dragon is his best, but I found myself enjoying both The Big Boss and Fist of Fury more this time around, finding them both quite entertaining on their own levels. Way of the Dragon, despite having better fight scenes in comparison to the previous two films, is still pretty bad: it's plot is nonsensical, the humour never hits (for me anyways) and the final twist still makes zero sense

Spoiler

(Like, why the fuck doesn't he just sell to the gangsters??)

but those fight scenes, especially the Chuck Norris one, are still pretty solid and I'll revisit it for those.

I remember Game of Death being a hot mess so my expectations are still very low in my revisit.

Spoiler

He doesn't own the restraunt, Nora does.