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Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:08 pm
by Monterey Jack
Just seems like a bad idea throwing a hard-R, three-hour movie about old-timey Hollywood into the marketplace at Christmas, when turkey-stuffed families will not have the patience or temperament for it (shades of Disney throwing Fox Orphan Nightmare Alley under the bus by releasing it the same day as Spider-Man: No Way Home last December). It seemed like a better idea to gradually platform it and only go wide in early January, when the Holidays were over and the Awards Season starts in earnest.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:36 pm
by therewillbeblus
The Wolf of Wall Street was one of the biggest Christmas box office hits ever, and the only difference in the eye-grabbing synopsis you aptly give for getting butts in seats is that this is about old Hollywood. I didn’t take a poll, but I’d gather that the demographic-based seduction of Wall Street 1% bros acting a fool vs. historical movie stars doing the same isn’t gonna be the crack that floods the dam. If anything, Babylon has the more appetizing milieu

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 5:56 am
by MongooseCmr
I think you’re forgetting how electrifying the first trailer for Wolf was, released I think 6 months earlier. Babylon isn’t even apparent when it actually takes place

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2022 2:08 pm
by therewillbeblus
I’m not saying Monterey Jack’s description is where the predictive variables for success start and stop, but responding to the specifics of their post which said that it was a “bad idea” to put a “hard-R, three hour movie” in theatres at Christmas time. I’m merely pointing out that this was a very good idea nine years ago. Their argument is about audience “patience and temperament,” not strategies in advertisement or the electrifying nature of a trailer. And I’m not forgetting anything because I didn’t make the claim!

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2022 6:43 pm
by yoloswegmaster
The runtime is confirmed to be at 188 minutes.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:09 am
by Never Cursed
First private screening of this occurred today to very positive reception, but the audience appeared to predominantly consist of bloggers who rave about everything, so take that with a grain of salt. Probably the smartest of the instant hot-take reacters called it "an even more insulting tribute to Godard than Hazanavicius'," so it's clearly a masterpiece

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2022 3:35 am
by Harvest
Never Cursed wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:09 am First private screening of this occurred today to very positive reception, but the audience appeared to predominantly consist of bloggers who rave about everything, so take that with a grain of salt. Probably the smartest of the instant hot-take reacters called it "an even more insulting tribute to Godard than Hazanavicius'," so it's clearly a masterpiece
The reactions looked much more mixed/polarizing to me. But yes, either way most of them were those awful Oscar blogger types.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2022 10:03 am
by cantinflas

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:47 pm
by yoloswegmaster
The Village East theater in NYC, Alamo Drafthouse in Brooklyn, and the Cineplex Varsity theater in Toronto will be hosting 70mm screenings.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:51 pm
by yoloswegmaster
Reviews are out and you can add this alongside Bardo and Blonde as films from 2022 that are polarizing and have long runtimes.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:38 am
by therewillbeblus
Perhaps it was impossible to make a consistently successful film that relies so heavily on bombast and uneven tones to secure its thesis, but I'll be damned if Chazelle doesn't reach for the stars to have his cake and eat it too. This is an incredibly accomplished picture, one that demands more time to flesh out roles like Jovan Adepo's, Li Jun Li's, and Robbie's, but I think there's an intentionality behind what appears to be lacking. In crafting lavish set pieces and vapid characters playing Stars even to their closest friends and themselves, Chazelle exhibits a world where spectacle trumps depth, and comedy usurps dramatic moments, at least for a little while. I can't decide whether the best segment of the film is Jean Smart's piercing monologue, forcing an unexpectedly poignant existential humbling upon a character too sensitive to stomach it, or Tobey Maguire's arc paving a descent into horror-noir hell, but that musing of mine is precisely Chazelle's point in fusing high and low brow art together for the sake of capturing dreams, affecting emotions, stimulating nerves, and making us feel alive. The show he puts on serves to demonstrate how much ceaseless, depleting chaos is required for a few seconds of inspiring magic, not just in moviemaking but in the fabric of our own lives, and he doesn’t take a juvenile position to assume it’s definitively 'worth it' either. It’s just what 'is'.

Babylon threatens to alienate audiences because of its irregular approach to narrative informing character. This film is a straight-up comedy (and an effective one at that) where we attach to no single three-dimensional person until at least the halfway mark. Chazelle’s enterprise only morphs into drama once the drugs of ascending dream-actualization wear off and these characters become tired, shaken into lucidity through disrupted complacency. Pitt is terrific here, and more than anybody else feels like a real character over time, but only once the magic spell has lifted and he's compelled to come to terms with his own insecurities and philosophical burdens. Calva takes the position of observer to Robbie, but one wonders whether his love for her is inseparably linked to that feeling of being 'alive', of dreaming, of when it 'all started' for him - when he woke up to the 'possibility' of his life through her incidental ignition. He confesses his love quickly, and it's unclear whether Chazelle believes Calva really has fallen in love with a non-character or just the spirit she represents, which is a bit of a careless mistake. Or maybe the film just doesn't allow for it - after all, it's using the form itself to mimic the characters' and Hollywood ethos' motivation to subvert the bowels of meaning with extravagant presentation.

I love a moment where Robbie blurts out that she hates toppings on ice cream to Calva, just after she comes face to face with a clearly-traumatic trigger from her past. We can easily piece together that this is Robbie's resilience on display, reinforced in a world that doesn't encourage that depth, and its sadness is fused with humor - high and low brow art, high and low emotions, high and low commodities, high and low interests; synthesized for our facile amusement and our solemn relatability. But there are limitations to this strategy, and unfortunately Robbie’s insipid part doesn’t really work. I can appreciate the point is that her drug use, trauma, and exhaustingly suppressive tussle between her superficial self and inner demons obfuscate her characterization, but that doesn’t make her an interesting character to engage with nor does it justify the length we’re expected to follow her for. She's a tragic figure who exists for Calva to iconize, cry, try, and live for, and ultimately project his understanding of the business' and life's (interchangeably resonant for Chazelle's existential-emotional design here) meaning onto alike. Instead of a person, she's more of a vehicle to build a thematic world around for those who can gain sobriety to the chaos we endure to get those few magic seconds. I suppose that makes her play the part of an old movie star as seen through our limitations a century later, just like Smart predicts. I'm not sure that makes it all succeed, but for the majority of the runtime I had a blast, legitimately disbelieving my eyes during a few of the more creative set pieces. A major reason I keep going to new movies is the hope that they'll show me something new. So, for that, bravo.

Time will tell if future revisits will grant greater rewards, and for me that'll heavily depend on whether or not I can buy into Robbie's thin part as a self-reflexive risk of genius instead of an underwritten, carelessly executed instrument. It’s easy to see why the role was written for Emma Stone- who, as much as I like Robbie, has always come off as organically infused with star power, like a modern Audrey Hepburn. She’s transformed thinly written roles into what feel like real, detailed, authentic people in the past (including her last collab with Chazelle for which she won an Oscar) so perhaps he was relying on her to bring this person to life in the same vein (certainly Nellie’s more crass socially-inappropriate explosions would read differently coming from Stone). Either way it feels like a missed opportunity and Stone seems like the magic key to make this work. Or maybe what Robbie lacks will give the film shades of meaning due to the unglamorized vacuum Stone’s casting might’ve disrupted with a mirage of dimensionality. Who knows. Regardless of all that, I still think it's a bold, messy, unsafe piece of art, unmarketable and bound to stir and bore and frustrate more people than it satisfies, and there's something admirable about that commitment to vision. Oh, and am I the only one who felt like the score resembled La La Land's best bits incredibly closely? Not a complaint!

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:09 am
by beamish14
yoloswegmaster wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:47 pm The Village East theater in NYC, Alamo Drafthouse in Brooklyn, and the Cineplex Varsity theater in Toronto will be hosting 70mm screenings.


Apparently the AMC Burbank is as well. I’d heard absolutely nothing about this getting 70mm prints, and this must be the first Paramount title to receive the honor since Titanic. It was the first studio to basically eliminate producing 35mm prints save for preservation purposes almost a decade ago

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:43 am
by The Fanciful Norwegian
They did both five- and 15-perf (IMAX) prints for Interstellar, plus 15/70 prints of a few other films.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:50 pm
by DarkImbecile
I’m recovering from a multi-day bout of food poisoning (so much more appropriate a table-setting experience than I realized going in), but I felt close enough to normal by yesterday evening to use my tickets to the evening showing of Damien Chazelle’s latest… but now I’m not sure if my delirium had entirely subsided or if Chazelle actually made a film as violently abrasive, hilariously repellent, and purposefully derivative as Babylon. I do know I would give up a lot to have been in the room with the first Paramount executives to see it after having handed Chazelle over $100 million, Brad Pitt, and Margot Robbie to make his latest awards contender.

Moment to moment, there are eye-popping technical achievements, touching fragments of performance, overwhelming visual set pieces, and laugh-out-loud formal and character-based jokes; there are also jarring tonal shifts, unfunny bits of juvenalia, extreme overacting, and blatant lifting of scenes and ideas from films like Boogie Nights and Irreversible. It’s certainly never boring, but Chazelle’s commitment to a frenzied pace, blaring sound, and non-stop extreme behavior also leaves you feeling like you’ve tongued a power socket.

Ultimately, I came out respecting the commitment to the bit and those scenes that do work enough to feel very mildly positive on the whole, but it’s nowhere near as successful as other debauched examinations of insular communities of hedonism, wealth, and privilege like Wolf of Wall Street. As twbb hinted above, this is not going to do well with general audiences — I can say with some confidence that I had the warmest reaction of anyone in my theater, since multiple people walked out before the opening title card, everyone else I saw leaving during the end credits looked shell-shocked, and the person I saw it was with was grinding his teeth in frustration at the conceit of the ending coda.

Between this, Bardo, Blonde, Tár, Nope, Men, and The Northman, it’s been a great year if you love big, divisive, messy auteurist swings for the fences.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:15 pm
by therewillbeblus
To be fair, the opening title card does occur about 20% into the film, after its most aesthetically-repellent set pieces and before any investment in character or story can be formed! Personally I think the two movie shoot set pieces (the outdoor silent film one, and the first day of sound shooting) were the best, not counting Tobey Maguire’s hellish field trip appropriately set in the third act. I do wish Pitt would get a nomination for this- he’s more fun in Once Upon a Time.. in Hollywood, but he has a more dramatic role to play here. His response to his fifth (or sixth?) wife following a bit of tragic news is really strong without going over the top, and its understated power hit harder surrounded by a film bathing in excess

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:22 pm
by DarkImbecile
That is a great moment for Pitt, and I agree that scenes built around actual shooting of scenes are the most fun in the film

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:36 pm
by therewillbeblus
I'll be curious to hear others weigh in, because I had a different theatre experience from you. People stayed, laughed at all the 'right' moments, and my theatre partner exited the screening not only liking the film more than me but praising Robbie's role as "her best yet," which I find to be an assertion wilder than some of the content in the film!

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:12 pm
by hearthesilence
Joseph McBride really liked this. For those not on Facebook:
Joseph McBride wrote:I saw BABYLON last night and love it. Such a sad movie about the tragic decline and fall of a great film industry and the art form it helped create (at least that's my interpretation of the film, though how you read it depends on your view of what has happened to Hollywood since the film ends in 1952 with the protagonist weeping in a movie theater yet slightly smiling with pride at his role in the passing parade). I recalled that more than 50 years ago I started taking notes for a similar project about the tragic life and career of John Gilbert, which I was calling THE CAPTAIN HATES THE SEA, after the title of his last movie. My version would have been more sober and dramatic than the Cecil B. DeMille-on-Acid fantasmagoria Damien Chazelle provides, but I thought even the excesses deplored by some reviewers fit the subject well (including the visualization of the classic joke about Hollywood with the elephant at the beginning, which I appreciated, having lived through it metaphorically myself). I also tried to pitch a book project in the late 1990s about the decline of American cinema, TWILIGHT IN THE SMOG (after a description of Hollywood by Orson Welles in 1959), but publishers thought I was too pessimistic, but it's mostly come true.

Sure, historical details in BABLYON were blended as in a puree, sometimes dubiously, with legend often treated as fact, and the sublime film artistry of 1926 conflated with the less sophisticated filmmaking of 1916, and the innocent Fatty Arbuckle was once again thoughtlessly maligned (and in this film literally pissed upon), but so much of BABYLON otherwise rings true to my knowledge of film history ("The story of that town is a dirty one," as Welles said in 1974 on Michael Parkinson's British talk show) and to my experiences as a Daily Variety reporter/reviewer/columnist and film and TV writer. I was reminded of my favorite episode of the Kevin Brownlow-David Gill series on silent movies, HOLLYWOOD, the one dealing with how the town destroyed John Gilbert and Clara Bow. That may have inspired BABYLON more than the Kenneth Anger book to which the film has unfairly been compared. And BABYLON has much in common with Welles's apocalyptic 1970-2018 film about Hollywood, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, which I am in and on which I served as a consultant (my character, Mister Pister, has something of the function of BABYLON's protagonist, Manny Torres, who is portrayed so movingly by Diego Calva; in the reverse angle of the scene outside the [Paramount] studio gate in 1952, you can see Raleigh Studios, where we shot part of OTHER WIND).

When a character in the film compares the film industry to gangsterdom, with little difference between the two, and a hit man warns Manny before sparing his life, "Get out of LA," I was reminded of how I feel obligated to warn my screenwriting students quite seriously that Hollywood is "a criminal enterprise." I attribute my continued longevity to having retired from screenwriting in 1984 to write books fulltime and having left LA for the San Francisco Bay Area in 2000 to teach and write. I enjoy being a talking head on documentaries about film history, as well as doing podcasts and audio commentaries, but I turn down any offer to let my work be made into a film or TV series, as I did again earlier this year. I recently looked at my WGA award for co-writing THE AMERICAN FILM INSTITUTE SALUTE TO JOHN HUSTON (CBS, 1983), which I keep in a box in a closet with my other Hollywood trophies, and found that the engraving has pretty much all worn off the award, leaving it a blurry black slab, which is rather symbolic.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:50 am
by Monterey Jack
-Babylon (2022): 2/10

Image

The worst film from a truly talented director this year? Baffling, indulgent, grotesquely scatalogical (you witness
Spoiler
an elephant explosively evacuate its bowels on top of a dude's head
within the first few minutes, and that's just the tip of the iceberg), rambles on for three hours and nine minutes(!), and has absolutely nothing to say about the changeover from silent film to "The Talkies" that wasn't already stated far more eloquently by SIngin' In The Rain or The Artist (both of which were nearly half as long as this). Plus, why does Tobey Maguire show up towards the end acting like Emo Peter Parker and made up to look like a sallow Emperor Palpatine? From a filmmaker whose last three movies I absolutely loved, it's the most crushing disappointment of the year. And for a movie that boasts both Margot Robbie and Samara Weaving in the cast, they couldn't have cast them as sisters, or at least have had them sharing the frame at the same time? And now THIS is the last movie I saw on the big screen in 2022. Happy New Year...!

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:45 am
by Black Hat
therewillbeblus wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:38 amI think there's an intentionality behind what appears to be lacking. In crafting lavish set pieces and vapid characters playing Stars even to their closest friends and themselves, Chazelle exhibits a world where spectacle trumps depth, and comedy usurps dramatic moments, at least for a little while.
I think you're being extremely charitable with your definition of intention.
therewillbeblus wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:38 amI can't decide whether the best segment of the film is Jean Smart's piercing monologue
There was so much to loathe about this dead-eyed flounder fish movie but, this, took the cake. What a load of self-important bunk, none of which was authentic mind you, really drove me nuts.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 5:35 am
by Swift
What a wildly uneven mess of a movie. Its juvenile and cartoonish humour becoming quite tedious. So many bodily fluids excreted here. How has excessive projectile vomiting become the go to gag in recent years in movies?

What did folks think of the final scene? I burst out loud at the complete tonal dissonance of it, particularly the later clips.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:47 am
by Never Cursed
A hyperactive, audience-assaulting, frenetically edited film, and how rare and pleasant it is to deploy those qualities as positives rather than negatives! Like the book from which Chazelle wrangled this narrative, I don’t think anyone looking for objective Truth or a simple “yay/boo movies” story will be satisfied with this; indeed, I think most viewers have been left pretty alienated by the film’s deliberate sprawl and jarring modulations in tone and especially pitch of performance. Every major character in the film is on some level a bullshit artist playing themselves (as TWBB has noted) to other people, and that conviction of expression has, I think, been confused with self-congratulatory sentiment on Chazelle’s part. There are some side characters that grate (see: Samara Weaving’s child-actor-on-a-sitcom level of diva hamminess), but the broad charm that Robbie and Pitt front with is self-sustaining and existentially aware rather than complacent. (Pitt’s Jack Conrad is described in the leaked script as a man “who floats through life like magic because he’s afraid of ever touching the ground.”) An example that I have seen singled out for particular criticism is Robbie’s opening dance, designed quite deliberately to pull attention, to convince a spectator that the dancer is hot shit. A Twitter commentator got a lot of positive engagement when they described the dance as, I think the phrase was, “annoying theater-kid bullshit.” Entirely true as an observation, but not a very interesting criticism: Nellie is at the orgy that opens the film to get the kind of attention that will land her a movie role, not to have a good time. The camera is overtaken by her self-indulgence not because Chazelle is so convinced of the inherent beauty of his and Robbie’s semi-fictional creation, but because they feel her hunger (for a job, fame, pleasure, and most importantly for a superiority that someone in her place would otherwise never be offered). If making something beautiful requires pain and stress and longing, then the film is about the almost masochistic tendencies that drive someone to want to make a huge and impossible work. What exactly is Chazelle telling on himself for?

This same logic presents itself all over the film. A beautiful climactic shot is special to us because of the Herculean effort expended to capture it, not just for its impressive scope and the happy accidents that enhance it (even though it is the latter and not the former that survives the recording process). The wellspring of Nellie's emotional talents (providing her with both sensuality and the ability to convincingly perform pain) is her hatred of her upbringing; Jack Conrad's origins are similarly humble and central to his need to stay on top.
Spoiler
Even the final montage (which, to be honest, I don’t think fully works thanks to its absurdly cute film selection) embraces this philosophy by presenting the future-history of film in the terms of an exhausting drive towards modernization and high-tech proficiency. Our characters already have enough of a rough time adjusting their crafts to the addition of sound, so of course they cannot coherently understand the endless formal and technological innovations (color, widescreen, surround sound, digital and computer-aided filmmaking) that the next century of film will bring. “Be glad you were a part of this,” the final shots of the montage, lingering reverently on images of the long-dead Nellie LaRoy and Jack Conrad processing in a bath of chemicals, say to Manny: “be glad that you suffered so to bring this art about.” (The question of whether these works were morally made, or whether participation in the industry was “right,” is totally irrelevant to Chazelle’s perspective.) Manny’s final emotional reaction is an alchemic blend of a million responses to this message: the excitement of self-recognition, the bitterness of the loss of his first love, the joy of having created, revulsion at the fact that the world has moved on, and so on. I think he ultimately decides that it was all worth it for him (which is different than saying that all the mayhem was “worth it” in general; “it” cost many other characters their lives), and it is here that I think Chazelle feels the greatest amount of personal sympathy for Manny: at a moment of satisfaction, but also at an emotional low point and at a position of maximum distance between himself and the industry that empowered him. Again, what exactly is he telling on himself for?
I was really bowled over by this, and I hope those of you who haven’t yet had the chance to see it aren’t dissuaded by the toxic buzz.

-------------------------------------

If anyone is interested, I compiled a list of differences between the leaked script and the film (hidden below for length and spoiler reasons)
Spoiler
Here are the major differences I noticed between the leaked script and the released film. The script is dated May 2019; my guess is that it was probably what Chazelle shopped to studios (its existence was first discussed by the press in July, with Lionsgate mentioned as a potential buyer, and Paramount was confirmed to have bought it in November).

Structurally, the film is mostly identical to the script; the two have all the same major sequences, begin and end in analogous ways, and share a similar pacing and tone. Some scenes and subplots have been added or dropped, and I’d say the majority of dialogue was rewritten between the two, but the experience of each one is pretty close to the other.

The most immediate difference is in the names of characters - something like a third of the central cast has their names changed between the script and the film, mostly to fictionalize identities. Those are as follows:

Nellie LaRoy (Margot Robbie) was originally Clara Bow
Robert Roy (Eric Roberts) was originally Robert Bow
Elinor St. John (Jean Smart) was originally Elinor Glyn
Lady Fay Zhu (Li Jun Li) was originally Anna May Wong
George Munn (Lukas Haas) was originally Paul Bern
Ruth Adler (Olivia Hamilton) was originally Ruth Azner (an homage to Dorothy Azner, though she originally had a death scene that aligned with Hollywood Babylon’s depiction of Marie Prevost)
Otto von Strassberger (Spike Jonze) was originally Erich von Stroheim
Constance Moore (Samara Weaving) was originally Colleen Moore
Don Wallach (Jeff Garlin) was originally Don Brady; the reason for the name change is unclear, and the character is closest historically to Adolph Zukor
Orville Pickwick (Troy Metcalf) was originally not identified (though either way the character is supposed to be Fatty Arbuckle)
Olga Putti (Karolina Szymczak) was originally Vilma Bánky

None of the other characters had their names changed significantly (Thalberg, Hearst, Marion Davies, and James McKay are all identified by their real names in the film).

The most significant omission from the script comes in the form of the exclusion of a major character. Her name is Zora; she is a Black writer who becomes a love interest for Sidney Palmer (Jovan Adepo). They meet and flirt at a nightclub, then get together after the middle-of-film party sequence. She helps him kick a heroin addiction (he and Anna May Wong shoot up a few times over the course of the script), and they move into his house together. (He doesn’t get the car as a gift in the script.) She attends the Hearst party with him, visibly pregnant. The end of Sidney’s storyline in the script sees him as a featured musician in a nightclub jazz band. Rather than playing a low-tempo number for a speakeasy crowd, Palmer plays a faster number in his final scene that is supposed to suggest his love for his family, ending on a “final sustained high C” that carries through the transition to the 1950s. Palmer’s arc is a lot shorter in the finished film, and he doesn’t have much dialogue in it.

After that, the differences are mostly in added/deleted/heavily altered scenes and are best summarized chronologically. I think these are all of the important ones:

- The opening scene of Manny getting the elephant to the party is set during the day in the film, and most of his dialogue in the script with the truck driver is cut.
- The Obese Man runs into Lady Fay/Anna May Wong in the script; she slaps him for making an obscene gesture at her. Elinor’s introduction in the film is quicker; in the script, Manny finds her dog while Elinor expresses racist indignation at Manny. Manny goes outside (where he meets Nellie/Clara) to toss some dog poop.
- Sidney assaults the saxophonist in his first scene in the script, headbutting him as they solo.
- Jack’s introduction is a bit longer in the script; a crazed fan attacks him before he heads into the party.
- Manny and Nellie/Clara’s relationship is more explicitly sexual in the script; Manny’s feelings towards her are more of unrequited lust than love. They have sex (offscreen) before she starts dancing. The tone of the scene where they do cocaine is, accordingly, different - it’s fairly sexual (and much shorter) in the script, and they don’t hype each other up like they do in the film. The whole “it’s written in the stars”/“I always wanted to be part of something bigger” exchange isn’t in the script.
- “My Girl’s Pussy” is much shorter in the film.
- Sidney and Lady Fay/Anna May do heroin after her performance, and she offers some to Jack (who declines).
- After the first party ends, the script features a lengthy scene where Don Brady/Wallach invites Sidney to view a sound film demonstration. (It is of a Paul Whiteman recording, and it hews very closely to a similar scene in Singin’ in the Rain). Most of the other guests are unimpressed, Palmer thinks he has seen the future.
- Manny’s trip with Jack back to the latter’s mansion is shorter in the film. Jack grabs the steering wheel of the car, and Manny professes that he is a huge fan. His lengthy speech before he falls off the balcony strikes a different tone - in the script, it is about making “one truly great piece of art,” in the film, it’s about perfect audience identification.
- Most of Robert Roy/Bow’s scenes in the script have been cut. Early on, he makes breakfast for Clara before she heads to her first day on set, cruelly mocking her. He pitches Jack on an idea for a restaurant at the party in the middle, and shows him a picture with himself and an uncomfortable-looking Charlie Chaplin. At the end, when Manny tries to flee L.A. with Clara, Robert asks Manny to apologize to Clara for him.
- A bit more with Nellie/Clara before she starts shooting on the first day in the script. She finds a makeup room in the Kinoscope studio area after seeing some more debauchery. Some actresses refuse to help her, so she tries to do the makeup herself. Also, the shooting area is inside in the script, rather than outside.
- As Elinor writes her article about Nellie/Clara, in the script we see her pay a visit to the latter’s house. Nellie/Clara lives in a total state of disarray, juggling two boyfriends that eventually find out about each other. She eventually gets everyone in the house to start fighting with her.
- During his New York trip in the script, Manny meets with a company that is producing early sound shorts. He sees that the technology is not really ready yet.
- In the script, the “hurray for sound” party in the middle takes place before Kinoscope transitions to talkies (in the film it is after the “first day of sound shooting” scene). Several of their stars (including Clara) are seen recording a sound test of “Little Bo Peep.” Clara struggles with hers.
- This party is set in the script at the El Mirador Hotel in Palm Springs, and is much larger and more explicit in who is present. Manny can’t get in until Jack waves him past a bouncer, morality protesters picket, and nude men and prostitutes wander around. Nellie/Clara says “Party time, bitches!” in the script rather than “Party time, sparkle cocks!”.
- In the script Lady Fay/Anna May sings “Orientally Yours” as she dances with Nellie/Clara.
- The film cuts a trip to the hospital following the snake fight, where Clara kisses Anna May. (They develop a more explicitly sexual relationship in the script later on, and film loses a brief sex scene between the two.) They return to the Kinoscope studio, where they are informed that the studio is shutting down to convert to sound feature production.
- Manny only directs the Sidney Palmer short and the “Duelling Cavalier” lookalike in the film. When he meets Nellie/Clara again in the film, their reunion is romantically rather than sexually charged.
- Manny takes a mescaline pill at the Hearst party in the script (he is by this point fully dependent on several drugs) and has hallucinations. He and Clara have sex again in the mansion bathroom; he hallucinates that they are swarmed by thousands of chickens as that happens (the chickens explode when he orgasms). Nellie only throws up on Hearst in the film, and her speech is much longer (and better-written) than in the script (to give you an idea, the script version of her tirade contains the word “virtue-signaling”).
- Thalberg pretty much immediately freezes Jack out once his interview with Elinor is published in the film, whereas in the script Jack meets more often with him. It’s mentioned that a role meant for him has been taken by Clark Gable. He gets assigned to lower-and-lower quality movies. The phone conversation he has with Thalberg, where Jack gets him to admit that the new movie is terrible, doesn’t happen in the script.
- A montage of silent-film-star deaths is cut from the final film (among them recreations of the deaths of Marie Prevost, Fatty Arbuckle, Lou Tellegren, and Gwili Andre). This is what leads into Manny’s firing of Lady Fay/Anna May, which is quicker in the script and instigated by Manny. We feel a bit more of Anna May’s pain in the script, which stays on her as she leaves the set.
- In the script, we see Clara storm off to the McKay casino on the California border. We see her lose badly at cards, we are introduced to McKay, and he threatens Clara.
- The blackface scene has very little dialogue in the script. Sidney puts on the makeup with little resistance, and the camera stays on him as he does a full take in the makeup.
- The final Elinor/Jack scene is longer in the film, and Elinor makes a more extensive version of her argument. In the script, she is quite offended when Jack calls her a “cockroach,” and only makes the connection between roaches and “the system” later.
- The movie Jack shoots on at the end is not implied to be a “piece of shit” in the script. Jack asks for acting pointers from its director in the script; in the film, he takes stock of the seediness of the production. The movie is only implied to be The Captain Hates The Sea in the film.
- The whole Manny/McKay sequence is a bit simpler in the film. In the script, they meet McKay’s henchman at another nightclub (the rowdy “Toad in the Hole”), after which they get redirected to the Garden of Allah (which is where the film begins the sequence). McKay also gives Manny more movie ideas in the script (stripper nuns, stripper gladiators - “Ben-Her,” and “dinosaurs,” though he retracts the last idea when Manny tells him a dinosaur movie has already been made, suggesting instead “christmas dinosaurs”). When McKay realizes that the money is fake, he acts betrayed in the film, whereas in the script he instantly moves to kill Manny and the Count.
- We see Jack kill himself in the script.
- In the script, Clara is only half-conscious for the attempted escape from L.A., and Manny takes her to see his family before they leave. The trip to the Mexican bar, their declaration of love, and their plan to get married only happen in the film.
- The transition from the 30s to the 50s is shorter in the film, and it adds the headlines discussing the deaths of Elinor and Nellie (she is never directly mentioned in the script after she disappears). We also see Anna May leaving for Europe in the script.
- Manny arrives back in L.A. alone in the script; he runs a car shop in the country and is unmarried. He visits In-N-Out Burger and Clara’s old house in addition to the studio gate.
- The script does not feature the collage-like montage at the end; it simply concludes with Manny getting lost in his memories/the movie; credits roll to “Singin’ In The Rain” playing quietly. In the script, the scene of the chemicals tinting the silent film prints is located much earlier, immediately following the “first day on set” sequence.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:37 pm
by TMDaines
If you thought The Wolf of Wall Street could have been more bloated and tinged with scat humour, then I have just the film for you. A real oddity that felt more like a long workprint, still yet to pigeonhole what type of film it wanted to be. The epilogue tying in with Singing in the Rain and a Cinema Paradiso knock-off felt out of place. Surprisingly my wife enjoyed this more than I did. We coincidentally watched La dolce vita seven days ago and that felt restrained and tight in comparison. The soundtrack is a real earworm, but I doubt I will be thinking too much more about this one.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 3:39 am
by Toland's Mitchell
Spoiler
I, too, was not a big fan of the closing film history montage while Manny was in the movie theater, similarly to why I didn't care for the use of the Vertigo score near the end of The Artist. Both films had served their "love letter to cinema" purpose without those overemphasizing sequences. And I find both sequences somewhat distracting in otherwise powerful moments in the films. Babylon's montage also felt out of place to me because it merged Manny's flashback memories with multiple brief clips from movies that weren't yet made at the time the scene took place (1952), before cutting back to his teary-eyed face. We understand the films in the montage each represented an innovation that became ingrained in the art, and that Manny was one of thousands who were left behind after these changes came along. However, I feel that point had already been made through the reporter's monologue to Brad Pitt earlier in the film, which was also much more effective. I suppose the Jurassic Park and Avatar clips were nodding to more casual viewers who may not have picked up on Babylon's more obscure historical references (ex. Fatty Arbuckle), but I doubt those two seconds would improve anybody's opinion of this 3-hour gargantuan.
Anyhoo, I liked the film very much otherwise. The first hour is a comedic onslaught of Hollywood excess after excess, and our three characters feel like small pieces along for the ride, as we viewers are. Therefore, as others mentioned, I didn't feel the film wanted us to pass definitive judgments on these characters (not for first 60 min, at least). To piggyback off Never Cursed's comment about Nellie's dance, I thought it was equally clear of Manny's intention at the party...to hopefully meet somebody who can lead him down the path to someday be a VIP at the party, and no longer be the guy tasked with trucking an elephant up a steep hill to the party. When faced with that totally ridiculous (and dangerous) task, and lacking the necessary horsepower to achieve, it would have much easier for Manny to abort. However, his determination to make the party hosts happy and deliver them their elephant is his same determination to achieve Hollywood fame.
Spoiler
And I wonder if Manny's success later in the film as a director would have felt a little more earned if he had the been the victim of the elephant's 'accident' instead of the poor guy standing next to him (but really this isn't much of an issue).
Lastly, I'll echo the praise for Brad Pitt, the best of three characters and performances, and the most Oscar-worthy.

Re: Babylon (Damien Chazelle, 2022)

Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2023 1:10 pm
by feihong
Monterey Jack wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:50 am Plus, why does Tobey Maguire show up towards the end acting like Emo Peter Parker and made up to look like a sallow Emperor Palpatine?
Having finally seen the movie, I can now say for sure that Maguire appears in this way precisely because Alfred Molina did something incredibly similar in Boogie Nights, inhabiting the exact same role––the psycho connoisseur of excess, who scares the guys we're supposed to like off the dark path they're heading down. So much of this movie was taken directly from Boogie Nights, by rights PTA should have a case for plagiarism. The scene of the girl OD-ing at the party, the camera drifting around the pool at the party, the whip-pans in the scenes where they're making movies, Margot Robbie's endless "Jack? I can do it again" moments in those scenes, and finally, Maguire literally just doing the Alfred Molina scene from Boogie Nights. Fay Zhu gets the Don Cheadle scenes (the scenes about bigoted typecasting, in other words), there's the transition to sound aping the transition to video-tape in Boogie Nights. Even the casual, almost random smoothness of the way Dirk Diggler gets brought into the porn scene mimics the casual, almost random smoothness of the way Manny gets pulled into film production. Endless stolen riffs made Babylon literally impossible to like. Every one of the scenes stolen from Boogie Nights plays like dogsh*t in this new movie, which seems to have been out of original ideas before it even started. Well, I guess there's the elephant (why oh why does it sh*t on a character we don't even care about?).

So on the other hand, I got a very enhanced sense of what Boogie Nights did so unerringly well that made it a really great movie.