UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading [Archive]

[ryannichols7]

I haven't seen the SC version of Breathless and cant speak as to how it compares, but I think Criterion's looks very good.

the only endorsement I need, thank you Chris! I figured it would do just fine - the old master was great at the time but easily improved upon with a new transfer. glad to hear that's the case, I'll grab it this week

[Finch]

kekid, I've not seen any direct comparisons between the TBLITW and Arrow BDs yet but James Luckard mentioned in his feedback about the 4k that it has the same subtitles that appeared over some building signs as did on the Arrow BD. If anyone has the TBLITW edition and can confirm if their BD differs from Arrow's, please let me know.

[nicolas]

After Hours looks quite good in 4K, though I feel a little more potential is in the master when looking at how eerily close the Blu-ray and UHD presentations look. Both encodes are solid with the UHD obviously better (the handling of highlights is excellent with no blocking from what I saw) but really not significantly. Our friends at Pixelogic made it easier on themselves with likely a small amount of filtering but if that’s the definite edition of the film in the world, I’m more than happy.

What struck me a little odd on first glance are the colors which tend to be desaturated (neon lights for example), leaning more into the metallic, darker side. This was based on the 4K DV master. When checking the BD in SDR, I was struck by the opposite. Reds in particular feel much “punchier” there. At first, I attributed this to Lee Kline who graded the master and his (initial) disdain of HDR plus Thelma Schoonmaker instead of Scorsese approving the transfer. I’m really not sure what’s correct and how the film has looked in the past. I think I’ll take the 4K disc in SDR for my first viewing.

[andyli]

I think I’ll take the 4K disc in SDR for my first viewing.

How do you watch the 4K disc in SDR? Are you talking about some method to tell the player to convert an HDR video on the fly and show it in SDR mode?

[nicolas]

I think I’ll take the 4K disc in SDR for my first viewing.

How do you watch the 4K disc in SDR? Are you talking about some method to tell the player to convert an HDR video on the fly and show it in SDR mode?

Yes, I’ll do this in the settings of my Panasonic UB824. I’ll deactivate Dolby Vision and select SDR BT.2020 as output “signal”. That works and my TV (LG G2) recognizes the regular (non-HDR) viewing mode. I think it works really well. I’m using this for the French UHD of Renoir’s The Rules of the Game as well since the restoration is SDR and has been mistakenly forced into HDR by the authoring house.

[Roscoe]

It's interesting to me that the AFTER HOURS release does not include a "Scorsese Approved" transfer. He's usually so involved with this kind of thing. Any word as to what went down?

[nicolas]

It's interesting to me that the AFTER HOURS release does not include a "Scorsese Approved" transfer. He's usually so involved with this kind of thing. Any word as to what went down?

I can only imagine that he was too busy with Killers of the Flower Moon when the transfer was made. I have a feeling that they tackled After Hours while he was filming and Schoonmaker had still some time for approval. The Lebovitz interview might have been filmed once they finished post-production. All of this could have also caused the lengthy delay of the edition’s release. Same as with Kino’s To Live and Die in L.A. UHD.

[nicolas]

Wow - Arrow’s edition of Scorsese’s Hugo is phenomenal and might be my favorite edition of the year so far. It’s perfect and exactly what these special editions should look like. The transfer in Dolby Vision looks immaculate and so gorgeous it occasionally defies belief that something like this has been made for a huge budget. I may be biased - this is one of the key films that got me into cinema when I saw it in theaters in 2013 but even objectively there is nothing that comes close today in kids’ cinema. Not these colors, not that atmosphere and not the overall craftsmanship. Besides, it’s such a beautiful love letter to (early) cinema and rich thematically that it’s one of the rare films aimed at children but can be enjoyed by everyone.

I would have bought this edition for the UHD alone but the bonus features are above and beyond. The Robert Richardson interview is 40 minutes and the Brian Selznick one is even longer at an hour. All three (Howard Shore is the third) are exceptional. Richardson in particular details his entire process, surprisingly stating that he and Scorsese had quite a few difficulties with 3D because they wanted the 3D effect in camera. He compared this to Avatar which apparently has a combination of on-set 3D photography and post-conversion. It’s a phenomenal interview and a treasure trove for fans of his cinematography style. I’m not sure if he was the one pushing for the 3D version to be included in the set (I was surprised by the initial announcement) but it could be as he made very clear that this is his / the filmmakers’ preferred version. The 2D version didn’t come together until later in post.

I haven’t had the chance to watch the scholarly essays yet because there’s so much available in addition to the legacy material. All in all, this is an edition that wasn’t on my radar and it’s above and beyond definitive. Seeing that it sells very well for Arrow makes me quite happy.

[Finch]

With the usual caveat of HDR>SDR conversions, the caps for Fist of Fury and The Big Boss comparing the Arrow 4k to the Criterion BD, the Arrow 4k is easily a solid upgrade at least for the colors on the former, and a bigger upgrade still for The Big Boss where the outdoor shots look much better on the Arrow.

[rrenault]

The Criterion of Breathless certainly improves on the Canal disc, even if there are still minor compression issues here and there. It’s still nothing like the eyesore we’re greeted with on the Canal disk when they’re in the model’s apartment at the end of the film. Some of the perceived compression issues on CC’s disc could be source-related though. The one other issue is it’s a bit grey at times as in not having enough contrast, but that could also be a source issue.

[nicolas]

The Criterion of Breathless certainly improves on the Canal disc, even if there are still minor compression issues here and there. It’s still nothing like the eyesore we’re greeted with on the Canal disk when they’re in the model’s apartment at the end of the film. Some of the perceived compression issues on CC’s disc could be source-related though. The one other issue is it’s a bit grey at times as in not having enough contrast, but that could also be a source issue.

Do you have time stamps for the grey sections? I could take a look and compare with my SC disc later today.

[nicolas]

I have received the UHD disc of Emir Kusturica's Black Cat White Cat (World Cinema Library Full Slip edition from China) from a friend for a personal rip. I thought - great, this is going to be a quick one and done considering that it has English subtitles.

Of course, things have to be different. The "4K transfer" is appalling. It's so bad that every Turbine re-grain attempt (Twister, Daylight, Born on the Fourth of July) looks like a new 4K OCN scan.

What is present on this disc is further away from 4K than any other transfer I've personally seen. Even Kurosawa's Ikiru whose best film element is notably two or three generations removed from the OCN has more consistent detail and resolution than this garbage. I truly mean this - many shots look sub-HD. I can't imagine that an interpositive would have so little detail.

Film grain looks like it has been taken off completely and replaced by little air bubbles which pop up significantly slower than real grain would. I've never seen a "grain" structure like this. It's horrifying. At this point, I'd rather have a completely grain-wiped and even sharpened master to have at least a little more resolution and image depth than what can be seen in this sh*tshow. Colors are often anemic, although this could be deliberate. Whites have pink hues, green is sometimes overly bright and exaggerated in a HDR advertising style.

I have no idea if this master is director-approved (the Blu-ray edition by WCL is approved by Kusturica) but in no way could a serious restoration technician approve an atrocity like this.

Before anyone asks, it is a genuine restoration project. The logo of a German fund for film culture starts before the film but no notes about the transfer and who did it. I can imagine that the lab associated with this would rather not be credited.

Encoding by WCL is difficult to judge because the image looks that processed. The blue opening credits text (film festivals) looked solid in DV, so at the very least the film could have looked more or less good with a real master.

On the packaging, MK2 is also credited. I feel bad for them because this can't be released in good conscience. I wonder what will happen with this film going forward.

Regrettably, I have not seen any film by Emir Kusturica before and am not very familiar with him and his views on cinema and presentations of his own work, meaning whether he's a digital tinkering fanatic like James Cameron or genuinely indifferent to how such restorations have to look like. His magnum opus Underground has also been restored recently. Oh, well.

BDInfo and screenshots over here: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=10

[nicolas]

Took a look into Criterion’s Breathless 4K and had high hopes that the issues from SC’s edition are fixed.

The encoding issues of that disc are fixed, thank God, but something way more serious is now visible: The master itself is affected. The horrendous encoding on the SC disc the issue distracted from apparent issues which have been there underneath the strongest Lego Vision.

Basically, nearly every section of the frame which has something remotely white or bright in it is affected by a drastic resolution loss. It truly looks as if for these portions of the frame other film elements (higher generation) have been used. I know, this is impossible and could have never happened here but that’s what it feels. You’ll see the detail of OCN footage circling around an island-like section of something three generations removed.

It’s one of the strangest phenomena I’ve seen in a new transfer. It isn’t the classic blown out highlights thing which clips highlights but, as mentioned, a noticeable decrease in resolution. In my mind, this is way worse because it spreads to segments which aren’t even overly bright. The entire film is affected.

Based on this, I’m fairly certain that not even the Italian Eagle UHD is an improvement. It’s a damn shame that this is the second of two Godard masterpieces which have been ruined in the restoration lab.

[Finch]

Even if the stronger encode is largely wasted on the botched restoration, the Criterion 4k still merits a mention in the superior import section. Is the gap between the two big enough to call it a solid upgrade against the Studio Canal?

[ryannichols7]

I'm certainly no expert but I sampled the first 15 minutes of it and was pretty blown away. it looks awesome, but someone here who can comment on encodes (and the SC release) can further affirm. it definitely looks substantially better than CC's BD, but I can't say for sure comparing it to the SC. either way, it's another strong argument for 1.33 B&W films looking top notch on the format, and how there really can be a big improvement, even if it's just a newer restoration.

[nicolas]

Even if the stronger encode is largely wasted on the botched restoration, the Criterion 4k still merits a mention in the superior import section. Is the gap between the two big enough to call it a solid upgrade against the Studio Canal?

Yes and no. Yes because the overall encode is substantially better but no because the underlying master is affected. It would be a solid update depending on whether you notice the issue (starts in the first shot and continues all the way through) or not. It’s a difficult case. If we exclude the master issues for which Criterion aren’t to blame, it’s definitely a solid upgrade.

[nicolas]

I'm certainly no expert but I sampled the first 15 minutes of it and was pretty blown away. it looks awesome, but someone here who can comment on encodes (and the SC release) can further affirm. it definitely looks substantially better than CC's BD, but I can't say for sure comparing it to the SC. either way, it's another strong argument for 1.33 B&W films looking top notch on the format, and how there really can be a big improvement, even if it's just a newer restoration.

I’m truly happy for you that you were blown away. Many were, including Chris over here. It really depends on whether you notice the anomaly I described. Due to the Pixelogic encode, its visibility is less apparent than on the SC disc which struggles with the encode in addition.

For my taste (credit to M A for his idea) the remastered BD of the SC edition looks the best because it’s natively in SDR. I have already ordered the Eagle IT UHD in order to hopefully get a perfectly encoded BD of the 4K restoration which, as you said, is (other than the mentioned problems) miles better than any old transfer. I will keep you updated.

[a.e]

Quick heads-up: the Blu-Ray included with the Apartment UHD is not from the same source; they just used MGM's old disc. Makes you wonder why they even bothered with it.

I just preordered The Apartment UHD (going to be released on Aug 18th in Germany) and it looks like it finally got an HDR 10+ treatment. No idea about the included Blu-Ray though.

[M-A]

The same is true for The Great Escape. I wonder if Capelight got access to the ungraded files or if they are just doing an HDR grade based on the SDR one, or even still if it will be SDR in an HDR container.

[nicolas]

The same is true for The Great Escape. I wonder if Capelight got access to the ungraded files or if they are just doing an HDR grade based on the SDR one, or even still if it will be SDR in an HDR container.

Although I don’t know for certain, I’d be very cautious with these releases. I don’t think that there’s much beyond SDR in what they label as HDR, if at all. Usually, when Capelight exclusively uses HDR 10+, it is their own pass. If they have Dolby Vision or just HDR 10, it’s something officially licensed and supplied with the master they got. The upcoming Harry & Sally will be in DV and that restorations will also play theatrically in Germany, just like Bloodsport. Capelight advertises these quite aggressively, which is another indicator for what is / isn’t a prestige release for them.

If they do their own pass, it’s speculative as to how it turns out. Their Bilitis still might be the worst 4K UHD release I’ve seen. Upscaled, DNR’d, re-graded with HDR “in name only”. Some of their other releases, including Bloodsport and Misfits, don’t have the best encoding. The latter is also low-pass filtered. HDR doesn’t stand out there either. It could very well be just SDR in a HDR container.

So generally, I’d wait for reviews or go straight to the Kino releases. This is speaking specifically about their releases of films shot on film. Digital productions look solid to excellent.

I have attempted to contact Capelight a few times over the years, asking for some information about the masters and rather general answers, and apart from one instance when they got back to me and replaced a faulty disc, they never responded. The last time was less than two weeks ago when I asked about the master for their BD of My Summer of Love. We therefore are likely not getting any official information.

Hope this helps. Capelight sadly isn’t Plaion.

[nicolas]

One False Move (Criterion) Chris's review

To Live And Die In L.A. (TBLITW)

No one's sampled the DV presentation yet but the consensus seems to be that the film is mostly fairly well encoded in HDR10, apart from some blockiness in the highlights. And everyone noticed the overly red skintones. Makes you wonder if TBLITW hired the same person that was (still is?) handling the Vinegar Syndrome 4ks. I haven't seen feedback about the audio yet.

Finch, I watched To Live and Die in L.A. today in DV. It looks really good. I can confirm the occasional encoding issues in white highlights but to be honest, they’re not at all distracting. I was more worried about the scenes which are bathed in red thanks to the great Robby Müller but these look spectacular. What I don’t experienced though is the red skintone issue. I found them mostly very natural and fitting within the lighting. They’re not pale but neither ridiculously red like Vinegar Syndrome masters or Severin’s The Changeling UHD - far from it. In a handful of moments, a subtly pinkish hue extends to more screen area but again nothing I’d call problematic. I’m as sensitive to bad skintones as most other viewers but genuinely don’t think they’re wrong here.

Audio in 5.1 sounded good to my ears but the 2.0 issues are disappointing. For my taste, this is still a top-tier release (having not owned the film before) but understand if you / others say it’s second-tier. (For those in need of subtitles, Kino finally toned down the brightness to a more eye-friendly white!)

I’d take a Arrow 4K edition in a heartbeat but if this is indeed the end of the road for this masterpiece, I won’t complain.

[Finch]

Thanks for that feedback, nicholas, re the DV presentation.

Feedback on Ferris Bueller's Day Off is that it's a good encode from Paramount with little DNR: Matt 89's post

[nicolas]

Got my UK 4K Steel of Peckinpah’s Cross of Iron today. This was admittedly a bit of a panic buy due to the crazy pre-order situation but after seeing that remarkable restoration and encode, I’m so glad that I gave it a try ahead of the Imprint version.

I can only assume that this is a Fidelity in Motion encode because the film looks simply perfect. Truly extraordinary detail, fine but never manipulated grain, a to my eyes perfect grade and surprisingly dynamic audio to round it up.

If every release could look like this and every early report be this short.

Thank you so much, Silver Salt / FiM and Studiocanal. This is everything we could wish for.

(P.S. It continues to baffle that Studiocanal’s encodes and masters tend to vary that much. I have a feeling that SC lets the lab that handles a particular title encode their disc masters as well. Silver Salt surely used David M here, CNC / Eclair for the Godard titles whatever intern they found. The inconsistency is terrible for customers and occasionally infuriating but the more happy when a home-run like Cross of Iron comes out).

[tenia]

Eclair and Hiventy are actually quite gifted at least for BD encodes, and AFAIK for UHD encodes too.

[M-A]

I thought Hiventy did a lot of StudioCanal's old bad 4K encodes. I know for a fact they did Adventures of Antoine Doinel 4K encodes for Carlotta