Windowboxing / Pictureboxing: Now with a shiny new petition!
- denti alligator
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:36 pm
- Location: "born in heaven, raised in hell"
Windowboxing / Pictureboxing: Now with a shiny new petition!
I want to encouraging anyone (everyone!) who cares about getting the very best picture from your Criterion discs to email them and tell them that their recent trend of "pictureboxing" 1.33 AR films is very very bad. Why? Because a) it reduces the full potential resolution of the image, and b) it looks bad on displays that have no overscan (which are becoming more and more common) - the image has black borders all around it and is therefore smaller than it could be.
Please, please email Criterion and let them know that this, well, sucks.
Thank you.
Please, please email Criterion and let them know that this, well, sucks.
Thank you.
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- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:12 am
David, does this mean that we don't get to see the full picture on a 1.33:1 TV when viewing pre-widescreen films - or is it sometimes customary to compress the full image to "fit the screen?" I would assume there is no consistent norm re this - it's just something I've never thought of, so my curiosity got awakened. Perhaps all the picture information is there after widescereen monitors have become commonplace, meaning that we with old equipment are missing out?davidhare wrote:- Academy ratio films are (almost always) 1.37:1. 1.33:1 is actually the shape of the TV screen.
PS Did you know that the DVD of "Kiss Me Deadly" is erroneously shown in widescreen as the film was actually lensed with the academy ratio in mind. 'Tho some theater owners at the time cheated and showed it in fake widescreen, in an attempt to lure larger audiences to their cinemas. This is according to director Aldrich's son, in a letter to the DVD-Laserdisc Newsletter's Doug Pratt. Thank God I retained the laserdisc which has the proper aspect ratio, ensuring me that I get all the picture information as the filmmaker intended!
- Tribe
- The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
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- Location: Providence, RI
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
This oft overlooked fact (1:33/37) is the root of a lot of apparent confusion when co's such as MGM DVD prints THIS FILM HAS BEEN MODIFIED FROM ITS ORIGINAL VERSION... IT HAS BEEN FORMATTED TO FIT YOUR TV for films like NIGHT OF THE HUNTER on disc. People flip & think they've bought some cheeseball "FullScreen" disc for an originally-widescreen film, whereas they (MGM, etc) are being technical/meticulous about the slight loss (presumably in telecine by slightly sliding in on the gate) of right/left image info.davidhare wrote:We should note "pictureboxing" used to be called "windowboxing" (a la opening credit sequences for Warner and Paramount titles, etc.) It's the same practice. BTW - such a pedant - Academy ration films are (almost always) 1.37:1. 1.33:1 is actually the shape of the TV screen. Things like pre 1932 talkies with optical sound tracks are of course 1.19.
- a7m4
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:36 pm
- Location: San Francisco
- Contact:
It seems like the best solution to the overscan problem would be for Criterion to post a overscan FAQ on their website explaining what it is and how it can be dealt with. I'm sure it's only wishful thinking but then when people email criterion about cropping they could point them to it and we wouldn't have to deal with black borders around our DVDs anymore. However it is done I just hope this issue is dealt with before the release of Late Spring.
- glueman
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:27 pm
It's nice to know that Criterion, even with all their criteria, can yet find it in their hearts to look after those with lowest common denominator displays.
My experience of The Overscan Problem is that those for whom it is a problem have already found some way of minimizing its effect on their lives - ‘windowboxing' is a solution you don't know you've got to a problem you didn't know you were having.
Maybe they could have some display 'criteria' on the packaging, like the ‘Minimum Technical Requirements' you get on other software. (Perhaps extend this to customer criteria in general - IQ, salary, aesthetic sense, etc. indicated by appropriate symbols.) In any event, what's needed is more information so each customer can decide what choices to make - not even less choice.
Having said that, who doesn't appreciate an extra excuse to double-dip in a few years when affected titles are re-issued in a high-definition format?
My experience of The Overscan Problem is that those for whom it is a problem have already found some way of minimizing its effect on their lives - ‘windowboxing' is a solution you don't know you've got to a problem you didn't know you were having.
Maybe they could have some display 'criteria' on the packaging, like the ‘Minimum Technical Requirements' you get on other software. (Perhaps extend this to customer criteria in general - IQ, salary, aesthetic sense, etc. indicated by appropriate symbols.) In any event, what's needed is more information so each customer can decide what choices to make - not even less choice.
Having said that, who doesn't appreciate an extra excuse to double-dip in a few years when affected titles are re-issued in a high-definition format?
Last edited by glueman on Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:55 pm
I am afraid I have to disagree with this statement. I have an overscan problem, and I have not figured out a solution. DVD players with incremental zoom are rare and difficult to find. And I am not prepared at this stage to upgrade my system to an HDMI compatible environment. So I recognize myself as the low-tech person Criterion are looking after.Glueman wrote:My experience of The Overscan Problem is that those for whom it is a problem have already found some way of minimizing its effect on their lives - ‘windowboxing' is a solution you don't know you've got to a problem you didn't know you were having.
Despite my current situation, I support the point of view expressed here that a quality-conscious organization such as Criterion should not compromise their quality for a short-term problem some of us will suffer until they upgrade. I am prepared to live with the overscan problem now, so that when I upgrade, my collection will be worthy of my hardware. However I simply wanted to point out that we should not minimize the overscan problem some of us have today. It is real, and it is not as simple to overcome as some exchanges on this forum have implied.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
One thing I'd like to mention, which has been sort of blooped over here, is the art of Skillful Television Telecine. It doesn't seem to me that it should be all that difficult to create an image that doesn't reach too far beyond the conventional monitor--border.... and also-- and this is a biggie for me-- DOES exhibit lens-curvature or negative-boundaries up in the four corners. I love my MVL hi-def crt (never seen a wega or Plaz to beat it... though the furniture-fit benefits of flat screen are obvious I'm not sure this trend away from crt... that is, quality non-tv crt... is a good one) which always allows me to view all data being fed to it (usually naturally, though if not so then with a little framing tweak).davidhare wrote:You're right to take the longer view. The prices of high-end gear like Plasmas and LCDs, and HDMI DVD players have crashed in the last two years, and will crash even further over the next few. By which time you will probably update. And the amount of overscanning you've been putting up with will amaze you.
One thing that always impresses me about Kino is the visibility of aperture-marks up in the image corners of so many of their 1/1:37 releases. This is something that CC, for all the vaunted coloring skill of their telecine ooperators, do no always respect. Dreyers JOAN OF ARC, HAXAN, TESTAMENT-MABUSE are a few which exhibit true-full-framing.
For all of Kino's addiction to interlacing & non-preconverted digital beta, youu look at the bulk of their framing and you see-- with exceptions of course-- a hearty respect for true FULL framing of neg info. Material coming out ofCineteca Bologna/LImagine Ritrovata deserve special applause... MAN WHO LAUGHS (whoever hasn't seen this yet should be--yes Dave-- whipped!), DIARY OF A LOST GIRL, NIBELUNGEN, TARTUFFE (though I think the master for this came out of south Germany, as with the similarly well-framed SEX IN CHAINS)... plus so many others with anonymous transfers... INTOLERANCE, HANGMEN ALSO DIE, the list can go on and on, really.
But I must say, faced with the choice of a few lines-loss of pixel-data in resolution due to overscan-offset (to acquire the full-neg on screen by the goofy application of a slight black border), and a very-slightly higher rez image filling the whole screen via the chopping off of neg-boundaries in the telecine gate, I'd choose the border any day, so long as it's very slight. Of course the ideal remains Plain Ol Good Telecine, as mentioned above a la CC's JOAN & Kino's DIARY. As proven by these releases, there's no reason to go chopping off, or hiding, negative data for any reason. I think the recent CC releases exhibiting the border is their way of jumping up & down & yelling "SEE! WE'RE NOT CROPPING IMAGERY ANY MORE!!!" in ref to the cropping complaints. Removing imagery from a hi-def master to maintain a certain resolution is as crazy as cutting off your arms to decrease body mass to INCREASE bloodflow to your erections during sex. Or something uh like that.
- toiletduck!
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:43 pm
- Location: The 'Go
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- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
And you, my good maniac dcuk, exhibit a hearty sex-HYPER-mania in that you hacked it ALL off and are now naught but a dcuk-head rolling around on prosthetic wheels! The increased bloodflow to your brain has in this case sharpened your mind though as your posts have a good psychotic edge to them.toiletduck! wrote:And let me tell you, THAT'S a mistake you only make onceHerrSchreck wrote:Removing imagery from a hi-def master to maintain a certain resolution is as crazy as cutting off your arms to decrease body mass to INCREASE bloodflow to your erections during sex. Or something uh like that.
That would be the ALPHA video method, btw-- chopping off the WHOLE image to increase storage space for... no extras..
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- Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:12 am
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- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:20 am
- Location: Providence, RI
Gary rates a mention in Tuesday's New York Times over this issue.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: London, UK
Oh, for fuck's sake. Can everyone send another email telling them what a backwards, daft idea this is and they should hopefully pack it in soon enough.Late Spring, in addition to all our future 1.33:1 releases, will
indeed be windowboxed. The purpose of this is to eliminate the
"cropping" effect caused by overscanning present on the great
majority of consumer grade display monitors.
I hope this helps, and please feel free to contact us with any future
questions or concerns.
Best,
Matt Lipson
The Criterion Collection
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- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:09 pm
While I disagree with it's use, it still seems 'fair' as most people watching dvds would still be using displays that overscan (I would think).
If they kept doing it with HD discs, then I would probably think it was totally unnecessary.
The ideal would be displays without overscan, and players with incremental zoom(+/-). Remotes with scroll-buttons (like mice have) would be really useful for this and other things!
If they kept doing it with HD discs, then I would probably think it was totally unnecessary.
The ideal would be displays without overscan, and players with incremental zoom(+/-). Remotes with scroll-buttons (like mice have) would be really useful for this and other things!
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
I think it's also important to say that even getting rid of the windowboxing and going back to their old ways still doesn't solve the cropping problem. Simply letting more of the edges of the image be included when creating the transfer would minimize the problem for those with overscan, without hurting those with newer monitors. So, here was my added comment:
There are better ways to address complaints of overcropping. If Criterion made it a practice to allow a more generous portion of the edges of the film image to be displayed in the first place, then even those with overscan would be less likely to miss any crucial information, without any need to resort to windowboxing.
- GringoTex
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am
But then those of us with high-end equpment would be forced to watch the films with looser framing than the director intended.There are better ways to address complaints of overcropping. If Criterion made it a practice to allow a more generous portion of the edges of the film image to be displayed in the first place, then even those with overscan would be less likely to miss any crucial information, without any need to resort to windowboxing.
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
I only meant a bit looser framing than what they have been doing, which in most cases is tighter than comparable releases from their competition. I didn't have in mind anything too different from what other companies have done. Anyway, determining the precise framing the director intended is not an exact science, so I've long hoped that when in doubt they'd risk erring slightly on the side of too much of the image rather than too little.
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
What, the windowboxing? Because the company has said that this new practice was in response to complaints that they cut the edges too close. Also, responses from Mulvaney in response to these complaints have often cited overscan to explain the cropping problem away, even though comparisons at DVD Beaver and elsewhere have shown time and again that their transfers often have noticeably less information to begin with, occasionally cutting into important parts of the frame, e.g. Notorious. Overscan makes this problem worse (without windowboxing) but it's not the only cause of it.