Business Models: Twilight Time vs. Other Boutique Labels

[knives]

That is circumstantial at best, though circumstantial evidence usually has actual evidence behind it. There's no factual reason based in reality to believe that criterion would not want to release a beloved film by a director whose popularity has increased in recent years especially when said film stars many popular actors. This is not to say this would be their top choice, but to say they'd never release it is utterly stupid and based in nothing at all. Adding in companies like Image or Mill Creek who will release anything available to them and your statements are provably false.

[zeroman987]

Well, there's another title I love but won't be able to own in HD anytime soon. Congrats Twilight Time. Well done.

Doesn't sound like you wanted to own it. You had more than 12 months to buy it and failed to do so. I think the only one to blame is your self. (or maybe Sony for licensing out to Twilight Time)

You're correct, I don't want to own a TT release. Someone on here posts a couple days ago that there are around 500 copies of Big Heat remaining, then a day later they're sold out... do you think all 500 people (or more likely far fewer than 500) who ordered those copies are planning on watching tonight? Check ebay in a few weeks. I get it's a free market and all, but that doesn't make it any less obnoxious. I know the procurers for this label are all about creating a sense of collectibility and that's fine, it's their business.

I'm region free. As you pointed out, I've already held out, and I can wait a little longer. Thanks.

So it is Twilight Time's fault that Sony licensed them a product, and that with ample warning you refused to buy it when it was available. It is their fault that a bunch of Ebay sellers bought up all the copies when it got down to 500 copies. It is also Twilight Time's fault that you posted a sarcastic message "congratulating" Twilight Time for your inability to buy the disc, which was your choice as a human being with free will. I bet they were behind a lot of other horrible things that have happened; do you think they were behind the fast and the furious movies?

[EddieLarkin]

That is circumstantial at best, though circumstantial evidence usually has actual evidence behind it. There's no factual reason based in reality to believe that criterion would not want to release a beloved film by a director whose popularity has increased in recent years especially when said film stars many popular actors. This is not to say this would be their top choice, but to say they'd never release it is utterly stupid and based in nothing at all. Adding in companies like Image or Mill Creek who will release anything available to them and your statements are provably false.

Admittedly I'm going off instinct more than anything. At 70 titles a year I do not see a place for Bell, Book and Candle in the Collection (not to mention Pal Joey and Bite the Bullet!).

I was just reading the beginning of this thread for the first time, and throughout 2011 and into 2012 there seems to be nothing but praise and defense for Twilight Time from this forum, especially you knives. When and why exactly did they become persona non grata around here? It's not like their business model or the sort of releases they were putting out changed.

[knives]

Primarily the sort of titles they were releasing changed drastically. At the start they were releasing titles that actually had never had home video releases which is of course a big deal, but now that so much of their slate is stuff with DVD releases their model is looking increasingly cynical. Also the appearance of Olive alongside major leaps forward in other companies showed the major flaws in the business model of TT.

[dwk]

I don't think it's the case that Sony do not allow labels to have extras on the discs. It's that any extras that are produced for Sony licensed films become the property of Sony, rather than the label. I seem to recall Cliff of Shout/Scream Factory saying this was the reason they won't licence from Sony. They can produce supplements, but they hold no rights to them once they go on the disc. Personally, I'd rather see the films out on Blu-ray than worrying about missing out on a 10 minute interview with one of the stars.

Eddie is 100% correct about the situation from Sony

I don't recall Cliff ever saying that Sony would own any supplemental features (not saying he didn't say it), all I've ever seen him say is that Sony will not allow it. In any event, if that is Sony's policy, it is basically the same thing as not allowing a company to create supplements.

It'll be interesting to see if Grindhouse Releasing's upcoming Blu-rays of The Big Gundown, The Swimmer, and Corruption (I think these are all Sony titles) have any supplements.

[rwaits]

This is the last I'll say on the subject because you're clearly getting more worked up than this is probably worth. As I've mentioned before, it is Twilight Time's prerogative to license whatever films they choose, and to issue them how they see fit. It is my prerogative to voice my frustration that it would cost me nearly double the already steep price to import one of their titles, and that Screen Archives (which seems to be the only real avenue to purchase) will not insure my order. So that plays a big part in my decision when I choose not to purchase these titles.

Surely other non-US posters here have voiced similar frustrations? I only discovered this label a few months ago, which should partially explain why I didn't in fact have a year or more to pick up this specific title. But again, I'm not tied to region A, and not a single one of their releases is an essential purchase for me (though Leave Her to Heaven is close), so I can wait for another company to issue a release that is more affordable for me, and one that would hopefully have supplements as well. It's really not a big deal.

On a side note, it is disappointing that some people are already scalping these on ebay, which is perhaps the reason for my inexcusable sarcasm in my initial post, but that is just my OPINION. Thanks.

[EddieLarkin]

It is my prerogative to voice my frustration that it would cost me nearly double the already steep price to import one of their titles, and that Screen Archives (which seems to be the only real avenue to purchase) will not insure my order. So that plays a big part in my decision when I choose not to purchase these titles.
Surely other non-US posters here have voiced similar frustrations?

Perhaps your impression of TT has been sullied too much for me to make a difference, but as a non-US customer allow me to clarify a few things. Screen Archives are the cheapest place to buy TT product, despite their high international shipping charges. Their warning about not insuring orders is a load of bulls*** which should be ignored. A credit card or Paypal purchase from their site is effectively insured by your credit card company/Paypal themselves. Regardless, I have made about 12 orders over the past 2 years and not had any go missing, nor have I ever seen any international customers mention about one going missing (some claim to have used Screen Archives for decades for international shipping and not have a single order disappear).

If your country has a low import VAT limit (like mine does; UK), then Screen Archives will also mark your customs label down so as to avoid the fee. Usually they mark each item as $5 on the customs label. All in all, a TT title delivered to the UK, assuming I order multiple at a time (to reduce delivery costs), sets me back approximately $34.

[dwk]

One of the monsters that run TT posted the following at the HTF

Hi rsmithjr--I can assure we do listen--especially to the comments at HTF--but other boards not so much. What I can say for certain is that recently, my TT partner Brian Jamieson and I sat and watched the masters of all the first 40 films or so we are licensing from MGM/UA to make a judgement call--I do exactly the same thing at Fox--so if you generally agree that our standard of Fox releases is up to snuff, you won't be disappointed in the MGM/UA titles either. Regrettably, we had to pass on some of those we were hopeful of issuing, but we were able to select enough to get us through 2014 and beyond.

I'm not sure the quality of all their Fox releases were up to snuff, but I'm not posting this on the HTF, so my comments don't matter. (boohoo)

Anyway, TT has around 40 MGM films. I wonder if MGM will force Twilight to region lock these releases.

[MichaelB]

Anyway, TT has around 40 MGM films. I wonder if MGM will force Twilight to region lock these releases.

Arrow's MGM titles are locked to Region B, and I know their region-locking policy is identical to the BFI/MoC (i.e. region-free whenever contractually possible).

[Moe Dickstein]

I don't think it's the case that Sony do not allow labels to have extras on the discs. It's that any extras that are produced for Sony licensed films become the property of Sony, rather than the label. I seem to recall Cliff of Shout/Scream Factory saying this was the reason they won't licence from Sony. They can produce supplements, but they hold no rights to them once they go on the disc. Personally, I'd rather see the films out on Blu-ray than worrying about missing out on a 10 minute interview with one of the stars.

Eddie is 100% correct about the situation from Sony

I don't recall Cliff ever saying that Sony would own any supplemental features (not saying he didn't say it), all I've ever seen him say is that Sony will not allow it. In any event, if that is Sony's policy, it is basically the same thing as not allowing a company to create supplements.

It'll be interesting to see if Grindhouse Releasing's upcoming Blu-rays of The Big Gundown, The Swimmer, and Corruption (I think these are all Sony titles) have any supplements.

As Nick Redman told me that was the policy of Sony to extras in person I believe it is 100% the case. Unless he was lying which he has no motive to do. Anything they create reverts to Sony automatically. It's a reaction to all the extras Sony had to bargain back from Criterion for over the years.

[Moe Dickstein]

One of the monsters that run TT posted the following at the HTF

Gee, shocking that Nick doesn't want to come share here, being a monster and all.

[Moe Dickstein]

Primarily the sort of titles they were releasing changed drastically. At the start they were releasing titles that actually had never had home video releases which is of course a big deal, but now that so much of their slate is stuff with DVD releases their model is looking increasingly cynical. Also the appearance of Olive alongside major leaps forward in other companies showed the major flaws in the business model of TT.

Their deal with Sony only allows them to release titles that have been issued on DVD. The Fox deal has no such clause so that's where you saw the rarer titles. The really mainstream stuff from Sony are titles Sony asked them to take, not ones they asked for.

[EddieLarkin]

Primarily the sort of titles they were releasing changed drastically. At the start they were releasing titles that actually had never had home video releases which is of course a big deal, but now that so much of their slate is stuff with DVD releases their model is looking increasingly cynical. Also the appearance of Olive alongside major leaps forward in other companies showed the major flaws in the business model of TT.

Their deal with Sony only allows them to release titles that have been issued on DVD. The Fox deal has no such clause so that's where you saw the rarer titles. The really mainstream stuff from Sony are titles Sony asked them to take, not ones they asked for.

Though this agreement appears to have come to an end recently with the Mindwarp and Alamo Bay announcements, Columbia titles that as far as I'm aware never saw DVD releases.

[zeroman987]

[redacted] Also the appearance of Olive alongside major leaps forward in other companies showed the major flaws in the business model of TT.

I believe Olive was putting stuff out before TT came on the scene; they put out Amer (?) and Despair (?). But either way, I see Olive's output as their modification/improvement to the TT model because the flood of their discs seemed to happen last June, about six (nine?) months after the Fright Night release. Essentially, instead of licensing out films from the owner and putting out a high margin/high cost disc, with its value artificially increased by scarcity, they are putting out a ton of low margin discs as fast as they can. We will see who actually makes it, but I hope both of them are successful because that means more discs are available.

[kingofthejungle]

Though this agreement appears to have come to an end recently with the Mindwarp and Alamo Bay announcements, Columbia titles that as far as I'm aware never saw DVD releases.

This is a potentially exciting development, and though I'm not the biggest fan of Twilight Time's business model, if they could come across with Blu-Rays of unissued-in-region-1 films like Ford's Two Rode Together or DeToth's Last of the Comanches, I'd pre-order them on day one.

[dwk]

As Nick Redman told me that was the policy of Sony to extras in person I believe it is 100% the case. Unless he was lying which he has no motive to do. Anything they create reverts to Sony automatically. It's a reaction to all the extras Sony had to bargain back from Criterion for over the years.

Nice to have that confirmed. Still it is a jerk policy by Sony that effectively steals content from a third party.

Gee, shocking that Nick doesn't want to come share here, being a monster and all.

C'mon Moe, I was being sarcastic. Unless Nick clubs babies to death and grinds their bones into paste, he isn't a monster.

[jedgeco]

I believe Olive was putting stuff out before TT came on the scene; they put out Amer (?) and Despair (?). But either way, I see Olive's output as their modification/improvement to the TT model because the flood of their discs seemed to happen last June, about six (nine?) months after the Fright Night release. Essentially, instead of licensing out films from the owner and putting out a high margin/high cost disc, with its value artificially increased by scarcity, they are putting out a ton of low margin discs as fast as they can. We will see who actually makes it, but I hope both of them are successful because that means more discs are available.

Olive is clearly a better-capitalized operation that TT is and can afford to do take out a real license for the films as opposed to the chintzy, small-run-to-avoid-residuals licenses that TT is taking out. TT seems to be basically a hobby, whereas Olive is a real business. The open question is whether TT has any intention of trying to move from a hobby into the big(er) leagues.

[captveg]

I also suspect that most Olive titles are being done at runs of 500 or 1000 rather than TT's 3000.

[bainbridgezu]

I suspect that TT has first call on stuff.

Obviously not: they aren't releasing any Stanley Kramer movies.

[knives]

That goes beyond salt, man.

[domino harvey]

I suspect that TT has first call on stuff.

Obviously not: they aren't releasing any Stanley Kramer movies.

Slow clap

[Props55]

Guess it's been awhile since I really paid attention to this thread. Am I to understand that TT now has access to MGM titles as well as Fox and Columbia?

Beyond salt indeed. Shit,blood and mud.

[Jeff]

Am I to understand that TT now has access to MGM titles as well as Fox and Columbia?

Yep.

[Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia is] such a beautiful film with so many possible extras that this feels like a cruel joke. I suspect that TT has first call on stuff.

We don't know the details of Twilight Time's deal with MGM yet. It's possible (if unlikely) that they'll be allowed to create some supplements, and TT owner Nick Redman is a frequent commentarian for Peckinpah films.

I'd agree that Twilight Time's appealing terms got them the pick of the litter from the MGM catalog, with the better genre and cult films going to Shout/Scream Factory. I don't think it's safe to assume yet that Criterion's got anything new beyond IAMMMMW.

Unfortunately, I can't imagine Twilight Time going after any of MGM's non-English properties or documentaries, and I don't imagine they have access to the Buena Vista licenses. They've got 40 MGM films, and there's no telling what a company that has released everything from Enemy Mine to The Song of Bernadette to Sleepless in Seattle might go for. They obviously have a particular interest in strong scores, including some non-cannon musicals. They also like historical epics, and they have their pet directors. They have shown a willingness to go for some deep catalog esoterica (including some films I find truly execrable -- but you've got to admire the ballsiness). It's hard to get a feel for where their predilections lie, but here are fiftyish films I could see them potentially going after. As usual, I have almost certainly overestimated Wilder.

Avanti!
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia ✓
Coming Home
Darling
Dreamchild
Elmer Gantry
Equus
Eureka
Exodus
The Fortune Cookie
A Funny Thing Happened On the Way to the Forum
The Great Train Robbery
The Grissom Gang
Hawaii
The Holcroft Covenant
How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying
Images
Inherit the Wind
Irma La Douce
Judgement at Nuremberg
Junior Bonner
Kiss Me, Stupid
The Lion in Winter
The Long Goodbye
Lord Love a Duck
The Man in the Moon
Man of the West
Marty
The Miracle Worker
Mississippi Burning
Moby Dick
No Way Out
On the Beach
One, Two, Three
Portrait of Jennie
The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes
Runaway Train
Smile
The Spiral Staircase
Southern Comfort
Taras Bulba
Thieves Like Us
Thunderbolt and Lightfoot
Tom Jones
Topkapi
The Train
Trapeze
Two for the Seesaw
Undertow
Valdez is Coming
Witness for the Prosecution
The World of Henry Orient

[matrixschmatrix]

Jesus, I don't know if I'd cheer or weep if Twilight Time put out The Long Goodbye

[dwk]

Next year Twilight is going to increase the number of films they release each month:

Do you think you will get to the point where you will release a handful of titles each month like Criterion?

Yes, starting in 2014 there will be a production increase -- more details coming soon.