Non-Marvel and DC Comic Books on Film

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DrewReiber
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#26 Post by DrewReiber » Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:46 pm

harri wrote:some information
Holy crap, I totally forgot about that. Wow, jeez. Someone is going to have to pin Jackson down in an interview for an update on that one. I honestly don't think it's been mentioned once since that time. Of course, he's mentioned at least 3 more projects he wants to do (though Hobbit will never happen at this point) since that time. He couldn't pick a better time to make that kind of movie than right now, so maybe after Kong? Hmm.

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Polybius
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#27 Post by Polybius » Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:56 am

DrewReiber wrote: Whedon is/was probably our last hope, as much as I hate to admit that (not a fan).
I would rather cut off all of my fingers with a dull butter knife than see that grossly overpraised oaf within a mile of that production.

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#28 Post by DrewReiber » Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:03 am

Polybius wrote:I would rather cut off all of my fingers with a dull butter knife than see that grossly overpraised oaf within a mile of that production.
Well, the way I see it, they're going to make this movie no matter what. If they can't get Singer to direct it, they'll go to Whedon. If they can't get Whedon, they'll probably find someone who will do what they want in time for the summer 05 shoot.

And judging from the producer-based choices on Elektra, Fantastic Four and X3/Wolverine (so far), I would rather see someone who cared about the material get their hands on it. Time is running out.

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The Invunche
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#29 Post by The Invunche » Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:53 am

My biggest fear: Joel Shitmaker gets to direct X3.

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Polybius
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#30 Post by Polybius » Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:00 am

All I'm saying is that Wheedon is a talentless bum and I loathe him with all that I have at my disposal.

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The Invunche
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#31 Post by The Invunche » Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:06 am

Haven't read it yet, but Whedon's Astonishing X-Men comic is receiving much praise.

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#32 Post by DrewReiber » Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:28 pm

The Invunche wrote:Haven't read it yet, but Whedon's Astonishing X-Men comic is receiving much praise.
It's good, but most of that praise comes in much the same way all comic creator hype comes.... from existing fans of the person in question.

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The Invunche
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#33 Post by The Invunche » Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:45 pm

Except that this guy didn't really have any fanbase in the comic field to begin with. Anyway, I'm getting the first Astonishing TPB this week so I guess I'll find out.

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#34 Post by DrewReiber » Sat Dec 25, 2004 9:32 pm

The Invunche wrote:Except that this guy didn't really have any fanbase in the comic field to begin with. Anyway, I'm getting the first Astonishing TPB this week so I guess I'll find out.
Actually, that's completely untrue. Not only is most of the X-Men readership (as in most of the reader base) made up of Buffy fans (the series IS based on Claremont storytelling), both Whedon and his Buffy franchise have been in comics for sometime now. Dark Horse had been printing his comics for years, and some of the earliest stuff like Fray was written by Whedon himself. That's why sales on the first issues never reflect the actual reader response, but rather pre-existing fan interest.

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The Invunche
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#35 Post by The Invunche » Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:25 am

DrewReiber wrote:Not only is most of the X-Men readership (as in most of the reader base) made up of Buffy fans....
You're just gonna have to prove that.
DrewReiber wrote:Dark Horse had been printing his comics for years, and some of the earliest stuff like Fray was written by Whedon himself.
And exactly how old is this Fray stuff? A couple of years?

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#36 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:43 am

The Invunche wrote:You're just gonna have to prove that.
Look at the pre-order numbers for three issues of Astonishing, before a single issue hit the shelf. Look at the hype, in magazines, online newsites, forums, etc, all surrounding the obsession over the Buffy creator coming to X-Men. Chris Claremont himself went nuts when he found out Whedon was going to be writing the book, and even I know (despite avoiding the show) that it referenced the Dark Phoenix saga quite heavily. Most of the X-Men fans I know were rabid about the show when it was still on.

You may not share my view, but I used to cover comics regularly for those newsites and even worked in the industry for a brief period of time. It appeared to me quite early that Buffy and X-Men fans were largely interchangeable quite a bit before Whedon came onto the series. Individual Buffy-esque comic series and projects have appeared all over the place (even nods in Generation X and other xbooks) since the TV show became popular. Take it as you like.
And exactly how old is this Fray stuff? A couple of years?
Try three and half.

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#37 Post by The Invunche » Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:50 am

DrewReiber wrote:and even I know (despite avoiding the show) that it referenced the Dark Phoenix saga quite heavily.
I can only guess you're talking about Willow going bad. I was unaware that Claremont had the patent on good characters going bad.
DrewReiber wrote:It appeared to me quite early that Buffy and X-Men fans were largely interchangeable quite a bit before Whedon came onto the series.
That's all the proof I need.

Sometimes a guy like me really needs to be told by an expert who has written for web sites.

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#38 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:35 am

The Invunche wrote:I can only guess you're talking about Willow going bad. I was unaware that Claremont had the patent on good characters going bad.
And apparently unaware of how much Whedon has talked about his X-Men influences for the Buffy work. Oh well, not a shock considering you've consistently shown how little you know about Whedon or comics all together.
DrewReiber wrote:Sometimes a guy like me really needs to be told by an expert who has written for web sites.
*grabs chest* ARGH! You got me right where it counts, pardner!

Well, I was considering going to IvC2 or Diamond to show you the parallel market percentage between Fray and X-Men throughout summer 2001, but it's quite clear it would be a waste of my time considering your complete mastery over my involvement in comics or inability to challenge your statements. Preach on, brother!

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The Invunche
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#39 Post by The Invunche » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:42 am

Please waste your time.

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igor s.
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#40 Post by igor s. » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:11 am

drewreiber wrote:Oh well, not a shock considering you've consistently shown how little you know about Whedon or comics all together.


vs.
the invunchche wrote:Please waste your time.


come now, tis the holidays, where's the spirit.

though i doubt this may illumine any of the preceding arguments, perhaps the words from the man himself may be beneficial to a talk about the man:

undergroundonline

your interpretation, drew, maybe a bit misleading or, in the least, exagerrated. maybe?
drewreiber wrote:It appeared to me quite early that Buffy and X-Men fans were largely interchangeable quite a bit before Whedon came onto the series.


maybe you should further share this observation.

-igor s.

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#41 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:39 am

igor s. wrote:though i doubt this may illumine any of the preceding arguments, perhaps the words from the man himself may be beneficial to a talk about the man:
Egad, they're mentioning his uncredited rewrite that they actually passed on for the first X-Men, which was followed by his screaming up and down to the media how bad the movie was going to be without him. Not cool.
igor s. wrote:maybe you should further share this observation.
I appreciate the offer, Igor, but I feel like if I put all the time to put together those figures it won't make a difference. This guy has thrown out every single thing I have said without even bothering to check if he has a point, and once I contradict one statement, he just attacks another one. If he truly cared about whether he or I was right, he would find out for himself. I pointed out where he can find the figures, so it's up to him.

Comic sales analysts have argued for years that top selling comics represent the majority of the direct market. Retailers definitely figure in as a large issue, but the profit base through which they survive comes from consistently selling titles like the X-Men (for the past decade). The X-Men titles that end up being popular manage to sell around 120-100,000 a month. Most titles around the top 20 didn't drop below 80,000.

But it's reasonable to assume that when a title is selling in the top 10, there is quite a bit of crosspollination in terms of the reader base. The total number of readers is no longer that high (probably much less than McFarlane's Spider-Man #1 sold in the early 90's). As Fray entered the market quite high in the direct market, and was a new title with no recognizable or consistently selling comic character involved, the order number had a large basis in customer subscription.

Due to this, it is logical to say that the pre-existing comic book audience were aware of the title and Whedon's involvement. Looking at the responses from comic book fans at the time of it's arrival, a good number of the X-Men fans were promoting/reading the title... and this is where I started to become aware of the Whedon/X-Men connection.

Once word started to leak out that Whedon was jumping onto an X-Men title, most of the Grant Morrison fans announced their disinterest outside of his writing and the market percentage on the title shifted respectively. Wizard magazine, those websites mentioned earlier and all other forms of representative comic book interest went crazy over the impending Astonishing series. Pre-sales on the first several issues were considerably higher than then other recent #1's for comic titles, including X-Men related ones.

Again, logic dictates that it shows a pre-existing interest/confidence in Whedon's work from existing comic book fans, as the direct market is just that... it's numbers and early responses are representative of a market that exists solely through comic book shops and Diamond Comics distribution. If it's also my perception that most of the people I see reading X-Men are also Buffy watchers, that's not my fault. It's an observation that adds signifigance in my opinion... perhaps it was a mistake to mention that.

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Polybius
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#42 Post by Polybius » Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:11 am

I have no strong opinion on the bleedover between the fanbases, but I can tell you there is one person who loves the X-Men and loathes most things Buffy (although I sort of like Angel...)

I can see someone liking both, but the tone is, from my seat, totally dissimilar. Claremont is often derided by people I percieve to be Buffy fans as being stodgy and humorless while Wheedon and all of his acolytes seem, to a lot of us, to be too cutesy and far too impressed with their own (largely imagined) cleverness.

I have no real reson to doubt any of Drew's perceptions. I can only speak for myself. For me, there is NO correlation between the two things and I'm convinced that a Whedon penned movie, unless made by a strong director, will be a smarm fest and will torpedo the franchise, at least aesthetically.

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#43 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:34 am

Polybius wrote:I can only speak for myself.
Hey, as I said, I can't stand Whedon's TV work, I'm just sharing what I've seen or heard (maybe I *am* wrong? I hope I am). But I have read first 4-5 issues of his X-Men and it's a whole lot more traditional than Grant Morrison's post-modernist, cypher-filled, 70's/80's retreads. This movie is going to happen no matter what, and if I can't have Singer, I would rather have someone who has proven they care about the characters.
Polybius wrote:For me, there is NO correlation between the two things and I'm convinced that a Whedon penned movie, unless made by a strong director, will be a smarm fest and will torpedo the franchise, at least aesthetically.
The franchise definitely needs a strong director, yeah. But wouldn't you prefer a smarm fest over Catwoman? I dunno, I guess I'm willing to take mediocrity over outright eye-gouging crap, when I could just accept that the franchise is doomed regardless. I just want to hold some hope that something good will happen before the end of next spring.

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The Invunche
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#44 Post by The Invunche » Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:59 am

DrewReiber wrote:I appreciate the offer, Igor, but I feel like if I put all the time to put together those figures it won't make a difference. This guy has thrown out every single thing I have said without even bothering to check if he has a point, and once I contradict one statement, he just attacks another one. If he truly cared about whether he or I was right, he would find out for himself. I pointed out where he can find the figures, so it's up to him.
I should find the figures that back your claims up? Yeah right.

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#45 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:13 am

The Invunche wrote:I should find the figures that back your claims up? Yeah right.
Or disprove me. My point stands, you don't care either way. You've just been arguing about whatever you come up with in your mind, despite that I've brought up some points of *fact* to *argue* my view. You bring absolutely nothing but an attitude, which would be cool in my book if you're at least willing to bring in an argument of your own.

The truth is you're too lazy to support your own responses with research or thought. You've just attacked everything I said with an obnoxious retort, not a shred of your own exemplified opinion for the sake of basic discussion. You could prove me wrong on both counts, but instead you've just replied with more empty snapping. And now you've passed on an opportunity to not only disprove my argument, but the perception of your belligerence.

Have a happy holiday. =D>

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#46 Post by jcelwin » Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:35 am

I always thought is was obvious that a large portion of comic book fans also liked buffy and were fans of Whedon. Just look at the comic book publications over the past few years.

Do you really need or want numbers to back it up?

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#47 Post by DrewReiber » Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:38 am

jcelwin wrote:Do you really need or want numbers to back it up?
Eh, let's just change the subject back to the topic.

Seeing as how Whedon's possible move to Wonder Woman got this started, how do you guys feel about David Goyer on The Flash instead of doing The Might Thory? Or how Blade: Trinity might reflect this? And who has predictions on who Warner Bros. will go to for Green Lantern?

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#48 Post by Polybius » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:34 am

DrewReiber wrote: But wouldn't you prefer a smarm fest over Catwoman?
Catwoman was a smarmfest :lol:

Actually, that's pretty much exactly what I dread: a smartass movie made by dumbasses.

Maybe Wheedon will go out of his way to emulate Claremont's feel...that's my Best Case Scenario if he's on board.

I thought the first one, even when I saw the promos, was going to suck on ice and instead I was rewarded with something I'd wanted to see for 20 years when I went to see it that day, so...who knows?

At least SMG won't be in it (unless someone wants to slip that particular shiv between my tender ribs...)

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#49 Post by igor s. » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:58 am

Polybius wrote: Maybe Wheedon will go out of his way to emulate Claremont's feel...that's my Best Case Scenario if he's on board.
it doesn't seem likely that whedon and x-men, other than on the new astonishing print, will see print on any film reel any time soon:
joblo wrote:"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" creator Joss Whedon seemed to, at one point, be the frontrunner to direct X-MEN 3 for Fox but now it seems he's headed for another comic franchise. Both Ain't It Cool News and TV Guide are reporting that Whedon is in negotiations to write and direct WONDER WOMAN. Producer Joel Silver (THE MATRIX) has been trying to get the film off the ground for some time with Sandra Bullock long being attached to the project. Recently Silver and WB hired Laeta Kalagridis of the defunct WB series "Birds of Prey" to write a draft of the script. Whedon is currently finishing up his feature directorial debut, SERENITY, based on his TV series "Firefly." It's unclear at this point whether Whedon could still direct X3 but given the animosity between Fox and WB over Bryan Singer leaving X-MEN behind to direct SUPERMAN, don't count on it. TV Guide also throws out the suggestion that Sarah Michelle Gellar could star in the film but given she's a diminutive 5'3" compared to WW's 5'11", that's another one you shouldn't count on. Stay tuned for more on this as it develops...
in the words of dennis hopper, in the voice of roy orbison:

Too bad it only seems
It only happens in my dreams
Only in dreams
In beautiful dreams.

-igor s.

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The Invunche
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#50 Post by The Invunche » Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:04 am

DrewReiber wrote:My point stands, you don't care either way.
No, I probably don't care that much. This is a pointless discussion on the Internet. Its kinda low on my list of priorities.
DrewReiber wrote:You've just been arguing about whatever you come up with in your mind, despite that I've brought up some points of *fact* to *argue* my view.
I've been making it up? Hell you're the one claiming X-Men readers are all Buffy fans with no proof of that whatsoever. You don't have to get all bitchy just because I don't agree with your observations.

I don't know a single person who's both a Buffy and an X-Men fan, but show me the numbers that support your claims and I'll gladly admit you were right. Show me the numbers that say Buffy fans are out buying Astonishing X-Men in huge numbers.

Could it be that people continue to buy Astonishing X-Men because it's maybe a decent comic? I think it's worth entertaining the thought.

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