Cassandra's Dream (Woody Allen, 2008)

[domino harvey]

This argument reminds me of an article I read by a Russian-speaker who complained about how bad the acting was in Lilja 4-Ever, but since I don't speak Russian, it still seems awfully brilliant to me. I don't live in the UK. In fact, most of the world doesn't. I'm sorry you don't get to enjoy this brilliant film.

[John Cope]

Your response makes it seem as though only language issues would prevent someone from recognizing the "brilliance" of this film. That simply is not the case.

[Belmondo]

Highly derivative of other recent Allen films, and the things that are new did not ring true for me.
Still love Woody (who wouldn't?), but, not this one.

[Binker]

For me, as an American, recognizing poor acting in Russian and recognizing poor British accent work seem like two wildly different things. The former being something I could have no hope of doing, the latter being something I can do relatively easily. I've never been to the UK, but through films, the news, British acquaintances in America, etc, I think I have a reasonable idea how several British accents sound. The accent work in this film was bad enough that I couldn't past it. Perhaps my experience with UK accents differs greatly from most Americans, but it would be surprising to me if it differed from most posters here (presumably college-educated fans of world cinema).

[Tom Hagen]

The irony is that part of the reason I enjoyed the film is because the dialogue seemed more natural to me than what I have grown accustomed to in Allen's recent American work. I was able to enjoy the film more because I wasn't distracted by the way the characters were speaking. I defer to my British colleagues on the accuracy of the accents and dialogue in this particular film, and I am disappointed on some pedantic level that Allen's voice wasn't nearly as correct as it seemed to me. As an American Gen-Yer who suffered through the implausible dialogue of the 20 somethings in, let's say Anything Else for example, I know how frustrating it can be when Woody writes characters who fail to sound anything approaching the reality that they are supposedly based in.

The accent work in this film was bad enough that I couldn't past it. Perhaps my experience with UK accents differs greatly from most Americans, but it would be surprising to me if it differed from most posters here (presumably college-educated fans of world cinema).

Obviously the intricacies here can be enough to fool a world class filmmaker and international cinema fan of Woody Allen's caliber and intelligence.

[domino harvey]

For me, as an American, recognizing poor acting in Russian and recognizing poor British accent work seem like two wildly different things.

Am I the only one who has no problems with the dialog in this film? The sudden pile-up of predictable "recent Woody Allen films suck" retreads in this thread has really disappointed me.

[Tom Hagen]

Match Point was an excellent film, and I thought Cassandra's Dream was a very good film that was undermined by some serious flaws. I actually have enjoyed all three of Woody's London-based films.

[Binker]

Obviously the intricacies here can be enough to fool a world class filmmaker and international cinema fan of Woody Allen's caliber and intelligence.

Yes, because reading that portion of my post, one would have to infer that I was insulting the intelligence of all Americans who did not recognize the poor accent work in this film.

[jorencain]

Like others who don't live in the UK, I was not bothered by the accents. I LOVED this movie. I thought it was much more successful than "Match Point" and the level of tension that Woody maintained was incredible, I thought. I never expected to be so on edge in a Woody Allen film, but everything leading up to "the deed" was quite nerve-wracking (in the best sense).

I thought "Scoop" was quite funny, and "Match Point" was solid, but this one really worked for me. I can't put my finger on exactly what it was, but I think he finally got all of the elements right in "Cassandra's Dream." So I don't find it derivative, so much as a culmination of all his previous "serious" films.

[Belmondo]

I think it is a culmination too, in the sense that his London period has run its course.

Woody is not getting any younger and it is possible good new ideas are getting tougher to find as themes get reworked, and plots and laugh lines seem too familiar even if they are brand new.
I can easily find much to love in his recent work and I would never miss one of his movies. I don't think any of his recent movies approach his best work so they are second tier movies from an artist who gave us the great gift of being prolific in his work.

[rs98762001]

I'm sorry you don't get to enjoy this brilliant film.

Brilliant? Whoa! "Steady on, me old mucker!" as one of Allen's English characters might say.

[Elmyr]

I can understand how dodgy accents can throw you out of a movie. I've certainly heard my share of horrible Boston accents and "authentic" local dialogue that bears no relation to reality. However, in the case of Cassandra's Dream , I can't imagine this being enough to ruin the film no matter how sensitive your ears. For me, almost all of Allen's movies have at least one major flaw but I think that's why I enjoy them as much as I do.

In one of the interviews in the recent Eric Lax book, Woody calls his films a "strange mishmash" of seemingly incongruous influences and to me that's why they work. Ingmar Bergman and Bob Hope don't go together. I don't think he's ever mastered the medium like many of his idols. But his movies have a weird kind of energy that is totally unique. I think Cassandra's Dream continues his winning streak of late and while it may or may not be brilliant, there's still plenty to recommend it.

[MichaelB]

Brilliant? Whoa! "Steady on, me old mucker!" as one of Allen's English characters might say.

You left out the "Gor blimey, strike a light, me old china".

Actually, do any of the non-British posters here have a problem with Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins? He's still a much-cited benchmark for atrocious accents in cinema as far as British audiences are concerned (in fact, you can read quite a few very recent citations by Googling "Cassandra's Dream"/"Dick Van Dyke"!).

This argument reminds me of an article I read by a Russian-speaker who complained about how bad the acting was in Lilja 4-Ever, but since I don't speak Russian, it still seems awfully brilliant to me.

Talking of Russians, there's an excellent parallel example doing the rounds right now - apparently native Mongolian speakers find Sergei Bodrov's Mongol hilariously terrible, largely because hardly any of the actors are Mongolian, and the director presumably wouldn't recognise authentic Mongolian diction in a million years. I'm guessing Mongolia isn't a particularly important market for big Russian blockbusters!

[colinr0380]

Wasn't there also much comment at the time about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon's Mandarin speaking actors too?

Sorry Michael I can't really tell much from that clip but then I'm based "oop North", so I can't really tell if the accents in Eastenders or kidulthood are spot on or over the top parodies!

It can't be as bad as the 'British' and 'Irish' characters on US TV shows like Heroes though can it?

Dick van Dyke's great in the film but yes the accent's all over the place in Mauray Popeines! But then I can get past it as it all adds to the unreality of the film, if we hadn't already cottoned on by the way the film makes chimney sweeping seem like a dream job full of happy dance numbers!

Though who can forget that line from Titanic: "Oicburg roight aheed!"

[domino harvey]

I'm confused, have you two seen the movie you're bad-mouthing or not?

[MichaelB]

I'm confused, have you two seen the movie you're bad-mouthing or not?

I've seen plenty of extracts (after hearing just how bad Farrell's accent was supposed to be, I eagerly sought them out!), and I've read the London reviews, which are all but unanimous in their confirmation that the accents make it impossible for a native Londoner to take the film seriously.

So there's clearly an absolutely fundamental suspension-of-disbelief problem for the likes of me, and I don't think watching two hours' worth is going to make much difference. I'm certainly not about to pay London cinema prices to find out, though when it turns up on telly I might give it a go out of curiosity.

But do bear in mind that my "bad-mouthing" (oh how appropriate) refers entirely to the spoken delivery, and won't affect anyone who wouldn't know an authentic London accent if it bit them on the shin. Much like my Italian friend who accompanied us to Ocean's 11 and couldn't understand why the cinema was rocking with laughter every time Don Cheadle opened his mouth! (She later said she found it very frustrating, as he seemed to be generating the biggest laughs by far, and she couldn't join in)

[Andrian Film Revival]

I haven't seen Cassandra's Dream and based on how much I hated Match Point, I never planned on seeing it. However, the viciousness of the reviews in the UK have piqued my interest, particularly in light of the fact that Woody seems to rate it as one of his top 5 or 6 films.

It got me to thinking - off topic and impossible to quantify - which is the worst reviewed film that actually turned later out to be bona fide masterpiece? I'm not talking about someone who quite likes Ishtar or Heaven's Gate... Stupid question maybe, but I can think of plenty of examples of the opposite.

[MichaelB]

It got me to thinking - off topic and impossible to quantify - which is the worst reviewed film that actually turned later out to be bona fide masterpiece?

Peeping Tom is too obvious, but someone had to mention it! And La Règle du Jeu didn't go down at all well in 1939 France.

But what I also find interesting are public critical U-turns. The one I remember most fondly, because I was involved with marketing the film, was Philip French dismissing Jan Svankmajer's Faust at Cannes and then apologising profusely for failing to recognise its merits when he gave it a much more positive write-up on its British release a few months later. But one of the main reasons I remember that incident was that it was so rare!

[reaky]

I agree with the earlier observation that there's more wrong with MATCH POINT than poor dialogue; the cultural/societal infelicities stand out too, with unbelievable howlers like the upper-middle class types evincing an enthusiasm for Andrew Lloyd Webber, and the cartoonish view of how the police operate.

I understand that such things don't really matter to non-British viewers; I don't worry about the authenticity of the speech patterns on Tattooine when I see STAR WARS. But it does seem odd that Woody Allen would alienate a previously solid sector of his audience (until recent years his work was certainly more highly valued in Europe than in the US, as he observes in WILD MAN BLUES). As Michael said, this critical suicide is largely the reason why his films aren't getting regularly picked up for distribution in the UK any more. I was actually astonished that CASSANDRA'S DREAM got a release, however brief.

As for British films set in the US with ropey accents - CARRY ON COWBOY?

[Cold Bishop]

It got me to thinking - off topic and impossible to quantify - which is the worst reviewed film that actually turned later out to be bona fide masterpiece? I'm not talking about someone who quite likes Ishtar or Heaven's Gate...

But Heaven's Gate is a bonafied masterpiece... Ishtar is pretty damn good too. No Heartbreak Kid or Mikey and Nicky, but good.

[colinr0380]

As for British films set in the US with ropey accents - CARRY ON COWBOY?

"My name's Belle but you can call me Ding Dong!"

Or this quote, taken from imdb, seems more pertinent:

Johnny Finger: [addressing the Indian chief] How! Me-um heap big paleface chief from-um Stodge City. Me-um salute-um big chief. Me-um want-um pow-wow.
Big Heap: [speaking perfect English] I say, you do talk funny. You must be foreigners.

[domino harvey]

Picked up the Spain Blu-Ray/DVD combo of this and can confirm it is a pressed Blu-ray (many Spanish Blu-rays are boots burned on BD-Rs, as I've unfortunately discovered) with English audio and removable subs. Looks good from the little bit I watched. Only but a few Allen films left on DVD only, but happy to finally get this one in HD!

[StevenJ0001]

Picked up the Spain Blu-Ray/DVD combo of this and can confirm it is a pressed Blu-ray (many Spanish Blu-rays are boots burned on BD-Rs, as I've unfortunately discovered) with English audio and removable subs. Looks good from the little bit I watched. Only but a few Allen films left on DVD only, but happy to finally get this one in HD!

Thanks for the tip!!

[therewillbeblus]

It's hard to put my finger on why repeat returns highlight this as not only one of Allen's best but arguably his most perfect tonally-distinct dramatic film. As opposed to Match Point, which I used to prefer but find increasingly alienating and static in its treatment of moral development to irritating levels, Cassandra's Dream steadily raises the stakes and implores the audience to intimately ride the highs and lows with these characters. We're graciously gifted and brutally forced to rationalize with them as they engage in the dark side of existentialism's plight to reconceptualize ethical responsibility through ideologies of family, grandiose justification, karmic luck, philosophical concerns in fate v chance, and atheistic approaches to significance of action. Rationalization is taken very seriously here, with a bit more weighted empathy for the defense mechanism than condemnation, which would be reversed in a few years with the equally-misunderstood Irrational Man, also (briefly) validating these mental gymnastics before scoffing at the absurdities in the human condition of intellectualism with acidic wit.

Murphy's Law is prewritten destiny when one's hypervigilance picks up constant triggers that challenge their barometers of self-preservation, be they rooted in moral or selfish conservations, learned or innate, it doesn't matter. That's where Allen's agnosticism shines through as he refuses to doll up this tragedy into any grand spectacle beyond stewing in feelings and ideas that are rhetorical questions without answers, just like the enigmatic pull of a gambler's addiction that is as baffling to himself as it is to everyone around him. Life is full of failure, intrusive emotions, guilt from irredeemable actions, and within the break from our comfort zones of untested security that don't force a deviation from our values, are infinite floods of unexpected wagers and ironic contradictions. Just because everyone is selfish doesn't mean the lines are all the same, just because "now is now" doesn't mean the pragmatism of moving forward replaces the internal logic of our emotional cores.

The continual magnetism to nostalgia is something that grounds the audience to this world despite the specificity and unrelatable nature of the crime. The parents dream of the boys as children, just as they dream of their youth when their uncle could gift them an experience without responsibility to ante in, to be accountable for their behavior, to make choices, to weigh ethical dilemmas. Their souls are diluted with passing time, net-harm accruing with stronger measures of egocentricity into adulthood, as we move further from our innocent days of heightened moral sensitivity into consequential personality modifications from a lifetime of repetitive rationalizations, small and large, that stress a range of responses on the sensitization spectrum of apathy to shame, but either way leave a traumatic stain. The boat as a symbol of this historical youth attempting to be reclaimed with the stamped title of a lucky horse, itself signifying Terry's lack of consciousness to consequence, is emblematic of this expired fantasy resigned to permanence in the past as Allen returns to it in the final frame. As Terry says, we coast through life like we're in a dream, and eventually wake up to the gravity of our choices and the strategies we implement to remain unconscious of our liability. I think every adult has endured this process to some degree, and Allen forces us into a position to broadly identify and acutely squirm at the content, without any manipulation layered onto the presentation, respectfully and confidently trusting us to engage with the material on our own terms. The question is where is this "line" for any of us, and will we acknowledge it before or after it's too late?

[Orlac]

As for British films set in the US with ropey accents - CARRY ON COWBOY?

Not a film but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twfhMY- ... =DoctorWho