Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

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Professor Wagstaff
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#101 Post by Professor Wagstaff » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:30 am

mfunk9786 wrote:It's a decidedly uncinematic cut, as one can see moments when music may have been considered, or a scene may have been truncated (to fit the occasional abrupt-cut style Longergan employs) in a shorter cut but continues on here.
That's one of the elements I most responded to when viewing this last night. I'm not sure what the genesis of the film was, if Lonergan might have conceived it as a play originally, perhaps. The rhythms and transitions are similar to a staged work in many ways. Certainly that's our director's background, but still it made me question if perhaps at some point this became a theatrical script he found to ambitious to adequately stage.

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MichaelB
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#102 Post by MichaelB » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:31 am

Plus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
The Wild Bunch is well over two hours.

Just sayin'.

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knives
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#103 Post by knives » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:43 am

I did always feel it drags in its last act. :wink:

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wigwam
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#104 Post by wigwam » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:00 am

OK, watched them back-to-back this evening

if you didn't see it in theaters, go straight to the director's cut

if you saw it in theaters and loved it, make time to see that version again and then the longer cut, it's very worth the commitment - at first I found myself just playing Where's Waldo w/ lines or shots not in the earlier cut but then the bigger puzzle pieces are put in and wow it really has entirely fuller dimensions

Major differences in the cuts listed below [please do not read if you havent seen the longer cut and are curious to see it - both cuts are amazing movies and you're doing yourself a disservice as a cineaste!!!]
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The extended cut most noticeably adds a prominent sound design which situates Lisa's narrative within a New York that has numerous other narratives taking place just outside of frame and at moments their dialogue drowns out Lisa & co's - there are transitional shots between scenes where unseen characters' dialogue is high in the mix, giving the audience rich, detailed glimpses of these other stories taking place outside this film - it's a device hinted at in the theatrical cut but a major motif of this extended cut

I was shocked at how identical the classroom scenes, the big shouting scenes, the Ruffalo scenes, the dad phone call scenes, and the Jean Reno scenes were in both cuts

There is a scene between Lisa and her scorned suitor Darren in a diner where the sound design aspect almost forgets to give way to Lisa's attempt at honestly letting him down, which recontextualizes her intoxicated exchange with him at the party in the later scene

Lisa's deflowering has much more dialogue before and after which ratchet up the awkwardness and the regret

There is a major scene added involving an after-school theater production that Lisa and her classmates are all involved in, with Lisa and the Syrian-American girl Angie both being on the technical crew. The theater teacher forces the kids into a cathartic confrontation exercise which gets intensely emotional for most kids, especially Lisa, and loads her motivation for tracking down Monica's family in the scenes that follow (which are the same in both cuts)

Lisa's first phone call to Monica's cousin Abigail, which leads Lisa to Emily contains much more detail from Abigail regarding Abigail and Monica's estrangement/contention, with reference to Abigail's children

Her run-in w/ Mr. Aaron on his bicycle includes more dialogue, where she is blatantly coming onto him and brags about not being a virgin, much to his discomfort

The meeting between Lisa's mother, Lisa, and Emily contains more from Lisa's mother, giving more dimension to her character

In a new small scene, Emily recounts for Lisa why Abigail and Monica were estranged: a trust fund for Abigail's children which Monica was executor of, so as to protect Abigail's children from Abigail (and Abigail's husband) burning through the money, adding deep resonance to all future scenes involving Abigail and the settlement

When Lisa goes to Mr. Aaron's apt, there is much more dialogue of hers before she removes her coat, wherein she is again frank about her attraction to him (then the rest plays the same)

Lisa's mother tries to discuss her and Jean Reno's relationship and is shut out by him, just prior to the photo album scene, which completely recontextualizes her reactions in that scene, loading it with a tragic undertone where a distance/disinterest was read in the theatrical cut

There is a major sequence where Lisa uses a home pregnancy test to confirm that she is pregnant, a fact she shares with her mom who accompanies her to have the abortion she will later provoke Mr. Aaron with, which in this cut does not contain the ambiguity of her truthfulness as in the theatrical cut

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Alan Smithee
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#105 Post by Alan Smithee » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 am

knives wrote:Eh, I do agree that making longer and already very long film is probably not something a film maker should go out of their way to do.
mfunk9786 wrote:
Plus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
Just gonna let that sit and breathe for a bit
I too am a big fan of the 90 minute movie. The economy of it can be lovely but this film demanded it's length for sure. I just can't see things like Jean Renos character or Matt Damons character having as much of an impact without them sitting in this sort of sprawling world. Not to mention the ending wouldn't have the same feeling. Its an opera for godsakes, they're long.

Any thoughts on the many back of the head shots of Lisa? Haven't heard anyone speak to that.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#106 Post by hearthesilence » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:21 am

MichaelB wrote:
Plus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
The Wild Bunch is well over two hours.

Just sayin'.
The Seven Samurai too.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#107 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:03 pm

Having read a bit about the theatrical cut, which I've yet to see, I'm curious to see whether I'd like it better, because it certainly sounds like it could compete for my affections effectively:
SpoilerShow
Particularly with removing the abortion scene, which sounds like it adds another layer of tension to the final scene with Damon, creating a "Is she just making this up to fuck with him?" element on top of the "Holy shit, she's going to fuck his life up." element that we're already experiencing.
I'm going to re-watch the extended cut with my wife this weekend, but then I'll be watching the theatrical cut myself - but I'm almost tempted to have her start with the theatrical cut judging from what I've read about it. It sounds as if it stands a chance at being the better, subtler, more ambiguous film. Either way, I have the Blu-ray arriving tomorrow (I had borrowed the extended cut to watch it last night), and will cherish the fact that I have access to both cuts whenever I want to watch them. I've certainly softened on Fox's decision to put the EC on DVD - it would have been a far bigger sin if they never released it.

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Dylan
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#108 Post by Dylan » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:02 pm

I haven't watched the new cut yet, but I'm wondering: are on-screen credits for Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmaker anywhere to be found on it?

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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#109 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:10 pm

It's not their cut, so I doubt it. They cut an unreleased 2.5 hour version.

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MichaelB
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#110 Post by MichaelB » Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:41 am

I don't recall any such credits, and I was specifically looking.

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TheFilmMann
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#111 Post by TheFilmMann » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:18 am

mfunk9786 wrote:It's not their cut, so I doubt it. They cut an unreleased 2.5 hour version.
I thought the 2,5 hour version on BD WAS their cut? Not true?

I'm very interested to see Margaret, but unsure as to which version I should watch. I'm leaning more towards the 3h cut, as this is Lonergan's preferred cut, true?

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LQ
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#112 Post by LQ » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:26 am

One of the most difficult movies I've ever sat through, full of relentless and profound guilt, anger, anguish; that the characters are mired in these emotions but are incapable of processing them or even articulating them precisely magnifies them tenfold for the viewer.

I appreciated how the film dignified and respected its characters. They're not flies or pawns under the thumb of a godlike director but organic, genuine, human beings, brought to life by the perfect performances of the actors inhabiting them. The ultimate conclusion that they cannot reach far enough beyond their own selfishness to connect with and understand each other although they yearn to do so left me absolutely devastated at the end. The cumulative emotional effect of this film was staggering to bear but it's an eminently rewarding artistic experience through and through. I think it was Dylan who said earlier in this thread that he felt more emotions and sensations while watching this than he had with any other film, and I can fully agree with that.

I'm of the opinion that every second of this extended cut is essential.
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Regarding mfunk's comments about the theatrical version's cut of the pregnancy test/abortion scenes, the strained ambiguity that would result in the final scene with Matt Damon would be totally incongruous and nonsensical in such an aggressively honest and bare movie.

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wigwam
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#113 Post by wigwam » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:23 pm

LQ wrote:I'm of the opinion that every second of this extended cut is essential.
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Regarding mfunk's comments about the theatrical version's cut of the pregnancy test/abortion scenes, the strained ambiguity that would result in the final scene with Matt Damon would be totally incongruous and nonsensical in such an aggressively honest and bare movie.
It actually works in the theatrical cut, because there are several details from earlier which are also removed in this cut, so it balances very well. Both cuts work excellently, and since both films are about how choice can never be perfect, there's no hierarchy of preference. If you liked the theatrical cut, make time to see both (maybe space them out). If you've never seen either, see the longer cut and if you love it, you'll make time for the shorter one. The theatrical cut has a great score that isn't used in the extended because of a different strategy in sound design and to me that's the biggest difference.

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zedz
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#114 Post by zedz » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:53 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:Having read a bit about the theatrical cut, which I've yet to see, I'm curious to see whether I'd like it better, because it certainly sounds like it could compete for my affections effectively:
SpoilerShow
Particularly with removing the abortion scene, which sounds like it adds another layer of tension to the final scene with Damon, creating a "Is she just making this up to fuck with him?" element on top of the "Holy shit, she's going to fuck his life up." element that we're already experiencing.
This is exactly how it played for me, so it was indeed a "Bloody hell!" moment that pole-vaulted the character along that particular continuum.

It actually sounds more and more like we (and Fox, if they had eyes to see) got two great movies for the price of one, against all the odds.

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Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#115 Post by Matt » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:31 pm

Looks like I'll once again be the lone voice of dissent. While I was riveted to the screen for the duration of the extended cut, I felt like I had seen so much of what's in it done better recently by others. Noah Baumbach does youth in existential crisis and unlikeable protagonists so much better, Spike Lee evoked post-9/11 NYC fear and loathing (and the palpable sense that everything changed that day without quite coming out and saying it) with perfect pitch in 25th Hour, and Arnaud Desplechin's Kings and Queen and A Christmas Tale are perfect intimate, inter-familial dramas on a sprawling, epic scale.

Margaret is very interesting and has some excellent performances, but it's ultimately an artistic failure. I have a suspicion that some of the effuse love for it at the moment is based on the more interesting drama of its tortured history. We want so desperately for Lonergan's original vision to be vindicated that we're overcompensating in our praise. If the original film had come out as planned with no behind-the-scenes intrigue, I think it would have gotten some award nominations, would have been high on several end-of-year lists, but people mostly would have agreed that it wasn't quite up to the level of his previous film.

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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#116 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:38 pm

As much fun as it can be to consider the differences between the two cuts, etc - I can honestly say that I couldn't give a shit less about the tortured production history with regards to my feelings about the film. You don't have to believe me (or other people in the thread who'll be sure to chime in), but I mean it.
Last edited by mfunk9786 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#117 Post by Matt » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:42 pm

I should clarify that I don't necessarily see that tendency happening here (I give most of you more credit than that), but it is something I have seen in some reviews and around Twitter.

Though as much as people have said that the movie is incomplete at a length less than 3 hours, I bet I could cut a hell of a 100-minute film out of it. Start by getting rid of any shot that doesn't have Lisa in it. As is obvious from the film, teenagers feel like their personal drama is the only thing going on in the world. Emphasize that, don't diffuse it with side stories. If the purpose of all the operatic needle drops is to suggest that Lisa is living in her own personal opera, why counteract that with the sound design that suggests that Lisa's drama is just one of 8 million stories in the naked city?

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mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#118 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:49 pm

As for your analysis re: 9/11 discussions in the film, etc - I've noticed that folks who dislike the film put a lot more emphasis on this aspect of the film than those who like it - I honestly just see it as a metaphor for the film's major theme that there's a lot more going on in the world than a few people's suffering, that the entire world is a nesting doll, and New York City is a good example of that. Lisa's situation dealing with the accident is a very small doll within Monica's death and her friends' suffering, which is a small doll within an incident like 9/11, which is a small doll within an entire city full of people with their own personal struggles, which is a small doll within a whole world full of conflicting philosophies, ideologies, oppressions and frustrations. The entire thesis of the film, to me, is Lisa needing to come to terms with the fact that the world keeps spinning even if she's not there, and that there's so much more going on that's incredibly important and significant to other people that she'll never know or understand, and vice versa. It's easy to just shrug a film off because 9/11 isn't ignored, but those classroom debates and that uneasy imagery of the massiveness of NYC are important in this film's larger context.

Lisa's in her own personal opera, but the film is always tapping us on the shoulder and reminding us why she needs to learn not to be, or at the very least, realize why that's not always going to be practical.

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Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#119 Post by Matt » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:55 pm

See, I didn't think the film was about her coming to terms with the realization that she's not the center of the world. I thought it was about her complete inability to take any personal responsibility for anything despite mounting evidence that she exacerbates any bad situation with her very presence.
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When I saw her looking at that bus at the end of the film, I was absolutely sure she was going to throw herself in front of it, which would have been a very fitting, melodramatic ending. In fact, I would have liked the film a LOT more if that were the ending instead of the weepy gesture toward reconciliation at the Met.
And I'm not trying to make a big deal about 9/11. It's all over the film (the discussions with her classmate, the shots of the planes, the panoramic views of NYC very pointedly lacking the twin towers of the WTC), but I agree it's not the theme.

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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#120 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:59 pm

She was unable to properly punish herself or forgive herself for what happened because of her teenage narcissism - but I don't think that the film is trying to paint her to be some sort of burden on everyone. She's just coming of age.
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Your ending suggestion would have been far too heavy-handed considering what the rest of the film had shown us: the encounter with Damon and the hint of her doing something absolutely despicable to him and then collapsing into herself like a dying star at the opera was perfect, in my opinion.
The film wasn't an epic melodrama - Lisa's interpretation of her own events was. It would have been unfair to treat it like one at the end.
Last edited by mfunk9786 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#121 Post by wigwam » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:04 pm

Matt wrote:I have a suspicion that some of the effuse love for it at the moment is based on the more interesting drama of its tortured history.
it wasn't quite up to the level of his previous film.
I saw it in the theater last fall before learning abt its post-prod probs and immediately was smitten and went back to YCCoM which I felt hadn't aged well and I wish I hadn't revisited because I remembered it as being a perfect film

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Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#122 Post by Matt » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:09 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
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Your ending suggestion would have been far too heavy-handed considering what the rest of the film had shown us
I dunno.
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If I'm going to be teased with an opera metaphor for 3 hours, I feel owed a proper operatic ending. Madame Butterfly cuts her own throat. Norma throws herself on a burning pyre. Don Giovanni gets dragged into Hell. The film is a melodrama and it ought to own it instead of just turning off the motor at the end.
mfunk9786 wrote:The film wasn't an epic melodrama - Lisa's interpretation of her own events was.
Then the film needs to be better at at articulating this, which is why I think it would benefit immensely from cutting all the scenes that can't conceivably be from her point of view.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#123 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:12 pm

But if it's a film about one's need to become self-aware enough to move away from inhabiting a melodrama, which it is, isn't the ending (an exercise in the character showing restraint, pause, and self-reflection for the first time in the film) appropriate?

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Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#124 Post by Matt » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:19 pm

I think that ending fits your interpretation of the film (though that confrontation scene rang a little false for me), and my proposed ending fits my interpretation of the film. Now, which one of us is Matthew Broderick's English teacher and which one is the insistent student?

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mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)

#125 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:23 pm

Matt wrote:I think that ending fits your interpretation of the film (though that confrontation scene rang a little false for me), and my proposed ending fits my interpretation of the film. Now, which one of us is Matthew Broderick's English teacher and which one is the insistent student?
Pick me, teacher, I'm ever so smart!

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