That's one of the elements I most responded to when viewing this last night. I'm not sure what the genesis of the film was, if Lonergan might have conceived it as a play originally, perhaps. The rhythms and transitions are similar to a staged work in many ways. Certainly that's our director's background, but still it made me question if perhaps at some point this became a theatrical script he found to ambitious to adequately stage.mfunk9786 wrote:It's a decidedly uncinematic cut, as one can see moments when music may have been considered, or a scene may have been truncated (to fit the occasional abrupt-cut style Longergan employs) in a shorter cut but continues on here.
Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
- Professor Wagstaff
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
- MichaelB
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
The Wild Bunch is well over two hours.Plus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
Just sayin'.
- knives
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I did always feel it drags in its last act.
- wigwam
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
OK, watched them back-to-back this evening
if you didn't see it in theaters, go straight to the director's cut
if you saw it in theaters and loved it, make time to see that version again and then the longer cut, it's very worth the commitment - at first I found myself just playing Where's Waldo w/ lines or shots not in the earlier cut but then the bigger puzzle pieces are put in and wow it really has entirely fuller dimensions
Major differences in the cuts listed below [please do not read if you havent seen the longer cut and are curious to see it - both cuts are amazing movies and you're doing yourself a disservice as a cineaste!!!]
if you didn't see it in theaters, go straight to the director's cut
if you saw it in theaters and loved it, make time to see that version again and then the longer cut, it's very worth the commitment - at first I found myself just playing Where's Waldo w/ lines or shots not in the earlier cut but then the bigger puzzle pieces are put in and wow it really has entirely fuller dimensions
Major differences in the cuts listed below [please do not read if you havent seen the longer cut and are curious to see it - both cuts are amazing movies and you're doing yourself a disservice as a cineaste!!!]
SpoilerShow
The extended cut most noticeably adds a prominent sound design which situates Lisa's narrative within a New York that has numerous other narratives taking place just outside of frame and at moments their dialogue drowns out Lisa & co's - there are transitional shots between scenes where unseen characters' dialogue is high in the mix, giving the audience rich, detailed glimpses of these other stories taking place outside this film - it's a device hinted at in the theatrical cut but a major motif of this extended cut
I was shocked at how identical the classroom scenes, the big shouting scenes, the Ruffalo scenes, the dad phone call scenes, and the Jean Reno scenes were in both cuts
There is a scene between Lisa and her scorned suitor Darren in a diner where the sound design aspect almost forgets to give way to Lisa's attempt at honestly letting him down, which recontextualizes her intoxicated exchange with him at the party in the later scene
Lisa's deflowering has much more dialogue before and after which ratchet up the awkwardness and the regret
There is a major scene added involving an after-school theater production that Lisa and her classmates are all involved in, with Lisa and the Syrian-American girl Angie both being on the technical crew. The theater teacher forces the kids into a cathartic confrontation exercise which gets intensely emotional for most kids, especially Lisa, and loads her motivation for tracking down Monica's family in the scenes that follow (which are the same in both cuts)
Lisa's first phone call to Monica's cousin Abigail, which leads Lisa to Emily contains much more detail from Abigail regarding Abigail and Monica's estrangement/contention, with reference to Abigail's children
Her run-in w/ Mr. Aaron on his bicycle includes more dialogue, where she is blatantly coming onto him and brags about not being a virgin, much to his discomfort
The meeting between Lisa's mother, Lisa, and Emily contains more from Lisa's mother, giving more dimension to her character
In a new small scene, Emily recounts for Lisa why Abigail and Monica were estranged: a trust fund for Abigail's children which Monica was executor of, so as to protect Abigail's children from Abigail (and Abigail's husband) burning through the money, adding deep resonance to all future scenes involving Abigail and the settlement
When Lisa goes to Mr. Aaron's apt, there is much more dialogue of hers before she removes her coat, wherein she is again frank about her attraction to him (then the rest plays the same)
Lisa's mother tries to discuss her and Jean Reno's relationship and is shut out by him, just prior to the photo album scene, which completely recontextualizes her reactions in that scene, loading it with a tragic undertone where a distance/disinterest was read in the theatrical cut
There is a major sequence where Lisa uses a home pregnancy test to confirm that she is pregnant, a fact she shares with her mom who accompanies her to have the abortion she will later provoke Mr. Aaron with, which in this cut does not contain the ambiguity of her truthfulness as in the theatrical cut
I was shocked at how identical the classroom scenes, the big shouting scenes, the Ruffalo scenes, the dad phone call scenes, and the Jean Reno scenes were in both cuts
There is a scene between Lisa and her scorned suitor Darren in a diner where the sound design aspect almost forgets to give way to Lisa's attempt at honestly letting him down, which recontextualizes her intoxicated exchange with him at the party in the later scene
Lisa's deflowering has much more dialogue before and after which ratchet up the awkwardness and the regret
There is a major scene added involving an after-school theater production that Lisa and her classmates are all involved in, with Lisa and the Syrian-American girl Angie both being on the technical crew. The theater teacher forces the kids into a cathartic confrontation exercise which gets intensely emotional for most kids, especially Lisa, and loads her motivation for tracking down Monica's family in the scenes that follow (which are the same in both cuts)
Lisa's first phone call to Monica's cousin Abigail, which leads Lisa to Emily contains much more detail from Abigail regarding Abigail and Monica's estrangement/contention, with reference to Abigail's children
Her run-in w/ Mr. Aaron on his bicycle includes more dialogue, where she is blatantly coming onto him and brags about not being a virgin, much to his discomfort
The meeting between Lisa's mother, Lisa, and Emily contains more from Lisa's mother, giving more dimension to her character
In a new small scene, Emily recounts for Lisa why Abigail and Monica were estranged: a trust fund for Abigail's children which Monica was executor of, so as to protect Abigail's children from Abigail (and Abigail's husband) burning through the money, adding deep resonance to all future scenes involving Abigail and the settlement
When Lisa goes to Mr. Aaron's apt, there is much more dialogue of hers before she removes her coat, wherein she is again frank about her attraction to him (then the rest plays the same)
Lisa's mother tries to discuss her and Jean Reno's relationship and is shut out by him, just prior to the photo album scene, which completely recontextualizes her reactions in that scene, loading it with a tragic undertone where a distance/disinterest was read in the theatrical cut
There is a major sequence where Lisa uses a home pregnancy test to confirm that she is pregnant, a fact she shares with her mom who accompanies her to have the abortion she will later provoke Mr. Aaron with, which in this cut does not contain the ambiguity of her truthfulness as in the theatrical cut
- Alan Smithee
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
knives wrote:Eh, I do agree that making longer and already very long film is probably not something a film maker should go out of their way to do.
I too am a big fan of the 90 minute movie. The economy of it can be lovely but this film demanded it's length for sure. I just can't see things like Jean Renos character or Matt Damons character having as much of an impact without them sitting in this sort of sprawling world. Not to mention the ending wouldn't have the same feeling. Its an opera for godsakes, they're long.mfunk9786 wrote:Just gonna let that sit and breathe for a bitPlus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
Any thoughts on the many back of the head shots of Lisa? Haven't heard anyone speak to that.
- hearthesilence
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
The Seven Samurai too.MichaelB wrote:The Wild Bunch is well over two hours.Plus, Lonergan breaks my one cinematic rule: No movie over two-plus hours should use slow-motion
Just sayin'.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
Having read a bit about the theatrical cut, which I've yet to see, I'm curious to see whether I'd like it better, because it certainly sounds like it could compete for my affections effectively:
I'm going to re-watch the extended cut with my wife this weekend, but then I'll be watching the theatrical cut myself - but I'm almost tempted to have her start with the theatrical cut judging from what I've read about it. It sounds as if it stands a chance at being the better, subtler, more ambiguous film. Either way, I have the Blu-ray arriving tomorrow (I had borrowed the extended cut to watch it last night), and will cherish the fact that I have access to both cuts whenever I want to watch them. I've certainly softened on Fox's decision to put the EC on DVD - it would have been a far bigger sin if they never released it.
SpoilerShow
Particularly with removing the abortion scene, which sounds like it adds another layer of tension to the final scene with Damon, creating a "Is she just making this up to fuck with him?" element on top of the "Holy shit, she's going to fuck his life up." element that we're already experiencing.
- Dylan
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I haven't watched the new cut yet, but I'm wondering: are on-screen credits for Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmaker anywhere to be found on it?
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
It's not their cut, so I doubt it. They cut an unreleased 2.5 hour version.
- MichaelB
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I don't recall any such credits, and I was specifically looking.
- TheFilmMann
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I thought the 2,5 hour version on BD WAS their cut? Not true?mfunk9786 wrote:It's not their cut, so I doubt it. They cut an unreleased 2.5 hour version.
I'm very interested to see Margaret, but unsure as to which version I should watch. I'm leaning more towards the 3h cut, as this is Lonergan's preferred cut, true?
- LQ
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
One of the most difficult movies I've ever sat through, full of relentless and profound guilt, anger, anguish; that the characters are mired in these emotions but are incapable of processing them or even articulating them precisely magnifies them tenfold for the viewer.
I appreciated how the film dignified and respected its characters. They're not flies or pawns under the thumb of a godlike director but organic, genuine, human beings, brought to life by the perfect performances of the actors inhabiting them. The ultimate conclusion that they cannot reach far enough beyond their own selfishness to connect with and understand each other although they yearn to do so left me absolutely devastated at the end. The cumulative emotional effect of this film was staggering to bear but it's an eminently rewarding artistic experience through and through. I think it was Dylan who said earlier in this thread that he felt more emotions and sensations while watching this than he had with any other film, and I can fully agree with that.
I'm of the opinion that every second of this extended cut is essential.
I appreciated how the film dignified and respected its characters. They're not flies or pawns under the thumb of a godlike director but organic, genuine, human beings, brought to life by the perfect performances of the actors inhabiting them. The ultimate conclusion that they cannot reach far enough beyond their own selfishness to connect with and understand each other although they yearn to do so left me absolutely devastated at the end. The cumulative emotional effect of this film was staggering to bear but it's an eminently rewarding artistic experience through and through. I think it was Dylan who said earlier in this thread that he felt more emotions and sensations while watching this than he had with any other film, and I can fully agree with that.
I'm of the opinion that every second of this extended cut is essential.
SpoilerShow
Regarding mfunk's comments about the theatrical version's cut of the pregnancy test/abortion scenes, the strained ambiguity that would result in the final scene with Matt Damon would be totally incongruous and nonsensical in such an aggressively honest and bare movie.
- wigwam
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 11:30 am
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
It actually works in the theatrical cut, because there are several details from earlier which are also removed in this cut, so it balances very well. Both cuts work excellently, and since both films are about how choice can never be perfect, there's no hierarchy of preference. If you liked the theatrical cut, make time to see both (maybe space them out). If you've never seen either, see the longer cut and if you love it, you'll make time for the shorter one. The theatrical cut has a great score that isn't used in the extended because of a different strategy in sound design and to me that's the biggest difference.LQ wrote:I'm of the opinion that every second of this extended cut is essential.SpoilerShowRegarding mfunk's comments about the theatrical version's cut of the pregnancy test/abortion scenes, the strained ambiguity that would result in the final scene with Matt Damon would be totally incongruous and nonsensical in such an aggressively honest and bare movie.
- zedz
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
This is exactly how it played for me, so it was indeed a "Bloody hell!" moment that pole-vaulted the character along that particular continuum.mfunk9786 wrote:Having read a bit about the theatrical cut, which I've yet to see, I'm curious to see whether I'd like it better, because it certainly sounds like it could compete for my affections effectively:
SpoilerShowParticularly with removing the abortion scene, which sounds like it adds another layer of tension to the final scene with Damon, creating a "Is she just making this up to fuck with him?" element on top of the "Holy shit, she's going to fuck his life up." element that we're already experiencing.
It actually sounds more and more like we (and Fox, if they had eyes to see) got two great movies for the price of one, against all the odds.
- Matt
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
Looks like I'll once again be the lone voice of dissent. While I was riveted to the screen for the duration of the extended cut, I felt like I had seen so much of what's in it done better recently by others. Noah Baumbach does youth in existential crisis and unlikeable protagonists so much better, Spike Lee evoked post-9/11 NYC fear and loathing (and the palpable sense that everything changed that day without quite coming out and saying it) with perfect pitch in 25th Hour, and Arnaud Desplechin's Kings and Queen and A Christmas Tale are perfect intimate, inter-familial dramas on a sprawling, epic scale.
Margaret is very interesting and has some excellent performances, but it's ultimately an artistic failure. I have a suspicion that some of the effuse love for it at the moment is based on the more interesting drama of its tortured history. We want so desperately for Lonergan's original vision to be vindicated that we're overcompensating in our praise. If the original film had come out as planned with no behind-the-scenes intrigue, I think it would have gotten some award nominations, would have been high on several end-of-year lists, but people mostly would have agreed that it wasn't quite up to the level of his previous film.
Margaret is very interesting and has some excellent performances, but it's ultimately an artistic failure. I have a suspicion that some of the effuse love for it at the moment is based on the more interesting drama of its tortured history. We want so desperately for Lonergan's original vision to be vindicated that we're overcompensating in our praise. If the original film had come out as planned with no behind-the-scenes intrigue, I think it would have gotten some award nominations, would have been high on several end-of-year lists, but people mostly would have agreed that it wasn't quite up to the level of his previous film.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
As much fun as it can be to consider the differences between the two cuts, etc - I can honestly say that I couldn't give a shit less about the tortured production history with regards to my feelings about the film. You don't have to believe me (or other people in the thread who'll be sure to chime in), but I mean it.
Last edited by mfunk9786 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Matt
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I should clarify that I don't necessarily see that tendency happening here (I give most of you more credit than that), but it is something I have seen in some reviews and around Twitter.
Though as much as people have said that the movie is incomplete at a length less than 3 hours, I bet I could cut a hell of a 100-minute film out of it. Start by getting rid of any shot that doesn't have Lisa in it. As is obvious from the film, teenagers feel like their personal drama is the only thing going on in the world. Emphasize that, don't diffuse it with side stories. If the purpose of all the operatic needle drops is to suggest that Lisa is living in her own personal opera, why counteract that with the sound design that suggests that Lisa's drama is just one of 8 million stories in the naked city?
Though as much as people have said that the movie is incomplete at a length less than 3 hours, I bet I could cut a hell of a 100-minute film out of it. Start by getting rid of any shot that doesn't have Lisa in it. As is obvious from the film, teenagers feel like their personal drama is the only thing going on in the world. Emphasize that, don't diffuse it with side stories. If the purpose of all the operatic needle drops is to suggest that Lisa is living in her own personal opera, why counteract that with the sound design that suggests that Lisa's drama is just one of 8 million stories in the naked city?
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
As for your analysis re: 9/11 discussions in the film, etc - I've noticed that folks who dislike the film put a lot more emphasis on this aspect of the film than those who like it - I honestly just see it as a metaphor for the film's major theme that there's a lot more going on in the world than a few people's suffering, that the entire world is a nesting doll, and New York City is a good example of that. Lisa's situation dealing with the accident is a very small doll within Monica's death and her friends' suffering, which is a small doll within an incident like 9/11, which is a small doll within an entire city full of people with their own personal struggles, which is a small doll within a whole world full of conflicting philosophies, ideologies, oppressions and frustrations. The entire thesis of the film, to me, is Lisa needing to come to terms with the fact that the world keeps spinning even if she's not there, and that there's so much more going on that's incredibly important and significant to other people that she'll never know or understand, and vice versa. It's easy to just shrug a film off because 9/11 isn't ignored, but those classroom debates and that uneasy imagery of the massiveness of NYC are important in this film's larger context.
Lisa's in her own personal opera, but the film is always tapping us on the shoulder and reminding us why she needs to learn not to be, or at the very least, realize why that's not always going to be practical.
Lisa's in her own personal opera, but the film is always tapping us on the shoulder and reminding us why she needs to learn not to be, or at the very least, realize why that's not always going to be practical.
- Matt
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
See, I didn't think the film was about her coming to terms with the realization that she's not the center of the world. I thought it was about her complete inability to take any personal responsibility for anything despite mounting evidence that she exacerbates any bad situation with her very presence.
And I'm not trying to make a big deal about 9/11. It's all over the film (the discussions with her classmate, the shots of the planes, the panoramic views of NYC very pointedly lacking the twin towers of the WTC), but I agree it's not the theme.
SpoilerShow
When I saw her looking at that bus at the end of the film, I was absolutely sure she was going to throw herself in front of it, which would have been a very fitting, melodramatic ending. In fact, I would have liked the film a LOT more if that were the ending instead of the weepy gesture toward reconciliation at the Met.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
She was unable to properly punish herself or forgive herself for what happened because of her teenage narcissism - but I don't think that the film is trying to paint her to be some sort of burden on everyone. She's just coming of age.
The film wasn't an epic melodrama - Lisa's interpretation of her own events was. It would have been unfair to treat it like one at the end.
SpoilerShow
Your ending suggestion would have been far too heavy-handed considering what the rest of the film had shown us: the encounter with Damon and the hint of her doing something absolutely despicable to him and then collapsing into herself like a dying star at the opera was perfect, in my opinion.
Last edited by mfunk9786 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- wigwam
- Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 11:30 am
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I saw it in the theater last fall before learning abt its post-prod probs and immediately was smitten and went back to YCCoM which I felt hadn't aged well and I wish I hadn't revisited because I remembered it as being a perfect filmMatt wrote:I have a suspicion that some of the effuse love for it at the moment is based on the more interesting drama of its tortured history.
it wasn't quite up to the level of his previous film.
- Matt
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm
Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I dunno.mfunk9786 wrote:SpoilerShowYour ending suggestion would have been far too heavy-handed considering what the rest of the film had shown us
SpoilerShow
If I'm going to be teased with an opera metaphor for 3 hours, I feel owed a proper operatic ending. Madame Butterfly cuts her own throat. Norma throws herself on a burning pyre. Don Giovanni gets dragged into Hell. The film is a melodrama and it ought to own it instead of just turning off the motor at the end.
Then the film needs to be better at at articulating this, which is why I think it would benefit immensely from cutting all the scenes that can't conceivably be from her point of view.mfunk9786 wrote:The film wasn't an epic melodrama - Lisa's interpretation of her own events was.
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
But if it's a film about one's need to become self-aware enough to move away from inhabiting a melodrama, which it is, isn't the ending (an exercise in the character showing restraint, pause, and self-reflection for the first time in the film) appropriate?
- Matt
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
I think that ending fits your interpretation of the film (though that confrontation scene rang a little false for me), and my proposed ending fits my interpretation of the film. Now, which one of us is Matthew Broderick's English teacher and which one is the insistent student?
- mfunk9786
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Re: Margaret (Kenneth Lonergan, 2011)
Pick me, teacher, I'm ever so smart!Matt wrote:I think that ending fits your interpretation of the film (though that confrontation scene rang a little false for me), and my proposed ending fits my interpretation of the film. Now, which one of us is Matthew Broderick's English teacher and which one is the insistent student?