Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

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thetao
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#251 Post by thetao » Mon May 02, 2022 12:26 am

At this point, unless I’m pre-ordering something, I’ve pretty much given up on Arrow releases. The “first run with booklets” is apparently so small these days as to disappoint regularly. I needed an excuse to cut down on my disc purchases anyway, and tuhis constant disappointment with Arrow upon opening their mystery packages has finally pushed me to drop Arrow in general.
This. I've lurked here a few times previously but just made an account to add some venting of my own. Personally, I am fed up in general with this whole limited edition thing. IMHO Twilight Time (are they still around?), Arrow, Indicator, Eureka, BFI, Imprint, and even the effing BBC all have something to answer for. As if the only way to exist in the home video market anymore is to peddle limited editions and make the buyers jump through hoops to get a complete copy. The last time I checked, companies like Criterion, Kino, and Shout were still doing good business.

I should clarify that while I am not somebody who goes out of their way for slipcovers, and really couldn't care less about them, I draw a distinction between swag and content. Swag equals slipcovers, posters, stickers, postcards, badges, t-shirts, etc. while content equals something that actually informs me about the film. That includes booklet essays, etc. which have become so scarce. The current market seems like the equivalent of an author declaring that anyone who buys the limited leather hardbound version of their book gets the whole thing...and everybody else loses chapter 3. It's ridiculous. I am a collector/completist, but if you shout "jump!" (i.e. "buy now or else!") I'm much more likely to respond with a string of explicatives than "how high?" Guess I wouldn't last long in the army, lol.

I only ever bought two Twilight Time disks for the same reason, and have also pretty much foregone Arrow. Some days I am tempted to do the same with all of them. I assume many of you noticed that Indicator is selling the full Ray Harryhausen Sinbad sets again, as a 5th Anniversary Edition, exclusively on their web site? I emailed them a month ago with a title suggestion, but also added that I missed their first William Castle set and MY business model is that while I try to accommodate theirs, if I can't get exactly what I want, I don't buy at all...so I hope they do the same for the Castle set in a year or two. I am tired of being quiet.

I don't have a blog. With tongue only somewhat in cheek, maybe somebody could spread the word to all the Chinese counterfeiters that they should dial back on turning DVD9 TV sets into DVD5 sets and instead work on counterfeiting all of these exclusive books and booklets. Then there would be some justice in the world.

Vent off. 😪

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tenia
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#252 Post by tenia » Mon May 02, 2022 1:52 am

Part of the answer probably is that for Arrow, booklets actually aren't that much of an incentive for consumers.
The issue remains that there is no solution for consumers to know what they're buying, unlike with Indicator who not only provide info about this but have a new reference for what turn to be standard re-releases.
But while I like these booklets, especially because I'm always keen on having access to the tech details, I certainly wouldn't pass on a whole release because of them, and nowadays, many aren't worthy of the "full" price I'd need to pay instead of waiting for a sale.

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andyli
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#253 Post by andyli » Mon May 02, 2022 5:11 am

Doesn't Arrow often skimp on technical details in its booklets? I remember the sets I own rarely shed light on the provenance and specs of restoration/transfer like Criterion does in its always-quotable About the Transfer section.

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tenia
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#254 Post by tenia » Mon May 02, 2022 7:45 am

There are indeed cases, especially with japanese movies, where the tech details are very generic, while Criterion would still provide more details about at least where the job was done and who supervised it. However, in most cases, they remain detaioed enough (like recently for their Vengeance Trails set).

thetao
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#255 Post by thetao » Mon May 02, 2022 1:14 pm

Part of the answer probably is that for Arrow, booklets actually aren't that much of an incentive for consumers.
If you're right, then perhaps Arrow does need a new business model?

Without re-reading this whole thread, I believe there were a few mentions of people pre-ordering and still not getting the booklet? Possibly even from Arrow? Has anybody then taken the seller to task and requested a refund? How did they respond? IMHO the best way to change the status quo is to be the squeaky wheel.
I certainly wouldn't pass on a whole release because of them, and nowadays, many aren't worthy of the "full" price I'd need to pay instead of waiting for a sale.
Hehe, my secret is that my wants list is so long that there is always something (more like a hundred somethings) to spend my money on. If it doesn't go to a second pressing Arrow, Indicator, etc. disk, there is always a Kino, Criterion, Shout, Flicker Alley, Sprocket Vault, Eureka, Imprint, odd foreign import, or even an old DVD TV series waiting in the wings.

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tenia
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#256 Post by tenia » Tue May 03, 2022 4:49 am

I might be wrong but it seems quite clear to me that Arrow's "business model" certainly doesn't have their booklets as a key component, certainly not in what are their more standard releases. I thus don't see why they would need to change it.

They indeed had a period for which the booklets print runs seemingly were drastically reduced, which generated the issues you're describing. It however has been (also seemingly) fixed by Arrow, and I don't believe having seen the matter pop up again since.

It's however clear (and also part of the bet from the consumer's side) that the more you're waiting (whether it's for a price drop or whatever), the more likely you are not to get a booklet. I'd argue that it's mostly your own decision : if I wait because I don't deem a release and its content, booklet included, to be worthy of me paying £17.99 for its content and am choosing to wait for a price drop even if it means not getting a booklet, well, that's my own ponderation of what I'm waiting vs what I get.

However, as I wrote above already, I do think Arrow should much more clearly communicate where they're at regarding booklet-containing pressings, so that at least, you know what you're getting. I was happy buying Sailor Suit and Machine Gun at a discounted price and still getting a slipcover and a booklet, but I'm likely to receive a booklet-less Irezumi. I'd like to know beforehand, just to have a thorough product description.

As for the overall market, I too have much more things I'd like to buy than money for it or even time to watch them if I was to have the money.

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Adam X
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#257 Post by Adam X » Tue May 03, 2022 7:58 am

tenia wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 4:49 am
However, as I wrote above already, I do think Arrow should much more clearly communicate where they're at regarding booklet-containing pressings, so that at least, you know what you're getting.
I suggested as much to them on a couple of occasions (prior to the Hut Group takeover) but they never ackowledged the issue in their response.

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#258 Post by MichaelB » Tue May 03, 2022 10:48 am

thetao wrote:
Mon May 02, 2022 12:26 am
Personally, I am fed up in general with this whole limited edition thing. IMHO Twilight Time (are they still around?), Arrow, Indicator, Eureka, BFI, Imprint, and even the effing BBC all have something to answer for. As if the only way to exist in the home video market anymore is to peddle limited editions and make the buyers jump through hoops to get a complete copy. The last time I checked, companies like Criterion, Kino, and Shout were still doing good business.
The mere fact that your second group comprises large US home video companies operating in a much bigger marketplace than the mostly much smaller British and Australian companies in your first group (TT is effectively defunct) rather neatly torpedoes your own argument: you're simply not comparing like with like.

And, having freelanced for the overwhelming majority of these companies (all bar Twilight TIme, Imprint and the BBC), I can also confirm that the American ones tend to pay more generously - but I don't for a millisecond think that the British labels are being stingy, because this is an inevitable by-product of operating in a much, much tougher commercial environment.

I've said this regularly going back close to a decade now, but if anyone has a genuinely workable and realistic alternative to the limited-edition model that fully takes into account the commercial challenges of operating within a much smaller physical-media marketplace than the US, and the increasingly pressing need to persuade consumers to pay close to the RRP close to the original release date (since that's the time that the label is at its most financially vulnerable), I am genuinely all ears, and I have the high-level contacts at multiple labels to be able to pitch such proposals to the people who actually make the decisions. But so far nobody has even attempted to rise to the challenge - usually I just get crickets.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#259 Post by hearthesilence » Tue May 03, 2022 12:16 pm

Shanachie Records' Yazoo imprint discontinued this practice (probably because their customer service seems to have disappeared), but when they were scaling down costs, one thing they did was stop printing liner notes on their back catalog releases while making them available as a PDF upon an emailed request. It won't appease collectors, but I imagine quite a few people (like myself) would be open to that option.

Orlac
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#260 Post by Orlac » Tue May 03, 2022 12:23 pm

The LE model for me is easier than it used to be - now so many companies are doing it, I have no hope of keeping up so just limit myself to £x per month.

I do think Arrow's lucky dip approach to the booklets was very annoying, resulting in me standing in HMV tilting the box to see if anything was in the damn thing!

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dwk
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#261 Post by dwk » Tue May 03, 2022 12:52 pm

Michael, Arrow has pretty firmly established themselves in the North American market. So I think it is fair to compare their practices with other North American labels.

(For the record, Shout very much should be taken to task for their extremely limited, website exclusive releases.)

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tenia
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#262 Post by tenia » Tue May 03, 2022 1:12 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 10:48 am
I've said this regularly going back close to a decade now, but if anyone has a genuinely workable and realistic alternative to the limited-edition model that fully takes into account the commercial challenges of operating within a much smaller physical-media marketplace than the US, and the increasingly pressing need to persuade consumers to pay close to the RRP close to the original release date (since that's the time that the label is at its most financially vulnerable), I am genuinely all ears, and I have the high-level contacts at multiple labels to be able to pitch such proposals to the people who actually make the decisions. But so far nobody has even attempted to rise to the challenge - usually I just get crickets.
What's interesting here however with Arrow is that it's actually not really their Limited Editions model that's being discussed, but a part of what aren't limited editions per se. Unlike Indicator (which is the closer model in terms of what happens once the 1st run gets out of print), who create a new booklet-less UPC, Arrow doesn't, so you're down to luck to ensure what you're precisely getting, but apart from the booklet and possibly a slipcover (which, in this case, is the same matter than for say big studios releases with 1st print slips), you're still getting it as a whole. It's not like, say, their Zavvi exclusives that you can't buy anymore once they're sold out.

Which is why I'm questioning the matter with Arrow's LE business, since the annoyance around the lack of visibility with their standard booklets actually isn't really related to this anymore (it used to a bit more, but not anymore IMO).

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#263 Post by MichaelB » Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm

dwk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 12:52 pm
Michael, Arrow has pretty firmly established themselves in the North American market. So I think it is fair to compare their practices with other North American labels.
But Arrow isn't the only label mentioned, is it? And the majority of the labels cited in the first group are small outfits either catering exclusively for the UK market or which have only just moved into the US.

So the comparison's only truly fair if the second group also includes several non-US labels operating at a similarly small scale and facing similar economic challenges, but which somehow manage to keep going without resorting to the limited-edition model. Let's say four, to be completely balanced.

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brundlefly
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#264 Post by brundlefly » Tue May 03, 2022 1:21 pm

tenia wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 4:49 am
However, as I wrote above already, I do think Arrow should much more clearly communicate where they're at regarding booklet-containing pressings, so that at least, you know what you're getting. I was happy buying Sailor Suit and Machine Gun at a discounted price and still getting a slipcover and a booklet, but I'm likely to receive a booklet-less Irezumi. I'd like to know beforehand, just to have a thorough product description.

As for the overall market, I too have much more things I'd like to buy than money for it or even time to watch them if I was to have the money.
FWIW, even if this was a hypothetical, my copy of Irezumi from the latest Arrow UK Store sale did come with its booklet. I was happily surprised (though it made me worried the Masumuras aren't selling very well.)

I agree that as a consumer all I want is an accurate description of what I'm buying. I feel kind of sad when I see "limited edition slipcovers" as incentives -- act now, treat yourself to more cardboard waste -- and feel bad for authors whose essays disappear after x number of copies of a disc are sold. But this is a shrinking market and the number of titles available is going to shrink with every format upgrade, so I am happy to support labels that funnel at least some of their efforts into bringing out interesting work in a way that exhibits some level of care.

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dwk
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#265 Post by dwk » Tue May 03, 2022 1:34 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 pm
But Arrow isn't the only label mentioned, is it? And the majority of the labels cited in the first group are small outfits either catering exclusively for the UK market or which have only just moved into the US.
No, but to be fair to those other labels, Arrow is a different beast and that is worth noting in this discussion and the OP shouldn't have lumped them in with those other labels.

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#266 Post by swo17 » Tue May 03, 2022 1:48 pm

I mean, the strategy has certainly worked to motivate me to buy things sooner. Though you do have to be insane/rich and have lots of free time to keep up with everything. If you don't like it you can vote with your wallet I guess, though bear in mind that we all voted for this outcome to some extent when we collectively waited for sales to buy even the things we really wanted

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#267 Post by DeprongMori » Tue May 03, 2022 2:24 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 10:48 am
I've said this regularly going back close to a decade now, but if anyone has a genuinely workable and realistic alternative to the limited-edition model that fully takes into account the commercial challenges of operating within a much smaller physical-media marketplace than the US, and the increasingly pressing need to persuade consumers to pay close to the RRP close to the original release date (since that's the time that the label is at its most financially vulnerable), I am genuinely all ears, and I have the high-level contacts at multiple labels to be able to pitch such proposals to the people who actually make the decisions. But so far nobody has even attempted to rise to the challenge - usually I just get crickets.
As one of the gripers about Arrow, I’m actually fine with the “limited edition model”. I understand why it is something of an economic necessity. And as I don’t have infinite financial resources, I know I’ll miss out on some things.

My gripe with Arrow is that there is no way for me to know what I’m getting with an Arrow release — even if I am holding the shrink-wrapped item in my hand. *That* is what irks me. I just want labels to clearly note what I’m getting or not getting — it can be as simple as a different SKU, a “first printing” note on the cover, or a sticker or O-card that says “booklet included”. (Though a separate SKU is the only option that solves the “on-line ordering” problem — best option is combo of SKU and visual differentiator.)

Indicator has an excellent model for addressing this. The “limited edition” has a different SKU. BFI is generally good on this — it’s been incredibly rare that I’ve gotten packaging that was not what I’ve expected. I believe they are now going out of their way to specifically differentiate limited editions from standard editions. (I’ll need to double-check whether BFI is now assigning a new SKU to standard releases. I have had one issue with a recent Flipside release where it was the same SKU, but without a booklet — Legends of the Witches)

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#268 Post by swo17 » Tue May 03, 2022 2:42 pm

Yeah, that's certainly annoying. If something isn't a new release, I'll usually just try to find a copy on eBay where I can physically see a picture of the booklet

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#269 Post by DeprongMori » Tue May 03, 2022 2:42 pm

FWIW, I ordered a copy of Toto the Hero a couple weeks ago from Rarewaves for only $9.99 and it had a booklet.

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#270 Post by ryannichols7 » Tue May 03, 2022 2:51 pm

dwk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 12:52 pm
Michael, Arrow has pretty firmly established themselves in the North American market. So I think it is fair to compare their practices with other North American labels.

(For the record, Shout very much should be taken to task for their extremely limited, website exclusive releases.)
this. they're churning out countless UHDs, do in house restorations, and have all of their releases carried by the larger US brick and mortar retailer. I don't see how they aren't subject to the same standards as Criterion and Kino at this point, and it's stunning to me how these booklets (which I can't imagine to cost that much in the grand scheme of things, not any more than the Ultra Limited Edition Lenticular Collectors Editions that arrow are able to release for basically every other title) are still a huge point of contention with this label. eureka and second run, both substantially smaller labels, are able to provide booklets consistently with every single release. granted, it may be more pressing in their cases as these are titles that often have little critical analysis, but something like the Masumura titles have no other English speaking release, so they're in the same boat.

the issue I have most with arrow, or any label that practices this (but they do it most) is when actual films are limited edition exclusives. I shouldn't have to pay $200 on secondary markets to get the only English friendly release of Kieslowski's television films, that are held hostage on a long out of print boxset. isn't the entire name of this game film preservation? I know we lambast Criterion all the time for sitting on the rights to stuff for years (which we should be doing, their business model should change too), but at least they generally always stream their holdings! arrow doesn't even do that

edited to add: thread had some more activity while I stepped away mid post. agreed with the majority on Indicator doing a good job of handling the limited edition stuff, I don't have an issue with their practices at all. physically verifying a booklet on an arrow release at Barnes and Noble is easy for sure, but what about the countless better (/cheaper?) releases from the UK?

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#271 Post by vsski » Tue May 03, 2022 6:34 pm

The main reason, as I understand it, is that the booklet in the first printing is to entice collectors and fans of a given movie to order sooner than later and presumably pay a higher price to get a booklet. Fair enough, even if one could argue, if labels would discontinue the practice of discounting the movie 6 or 9 months later, maybe more interested buyers would be enticed to pay full price.

Initially it was no problem to order an Arrow disc a year after it was released and still get a booklet - I know I did it many times - but all of this changed a few years ago and I guess simply because too many people were waiting for the sale knowing they would get the same item with booklet then.

So the problem is a financial one - and MichaelB states as much - where labels are dependent to sell as many numbers as close to MSRP as possible. And if that’s the case then why continue the practice of having sales a short period after, making many consumers either contemplate whether a booklet is worth having, or take a gamble as to whether they may still get one. Discontinue the sales and keep the booklets - or do the presumably smaller sales quantities in that scenario also cause a financial problem? In that case one should just admit that the existing price points are no longer sustainable.

Of course I agree with many here that Indicator has by far the better model, as you know exactly what you are getting and if you are ok not to have the booklet, let’s wait for the standard edition and pay less, especially during their sales.

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DeprongMori
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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#272 Post by DeprongMori » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:20 pm

I’m looking to order Arrow’s release of Upstream Color / Primer and trying to determine whether it might still have a booklet. Has anyone ordered it recently and received a booklet? Has anyone ever received a copy without a booklet?

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#273 Post by swo17 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:21 pm

I don't believe it's ever had one, in keeping with it being stripped down to a very low profile release. (In any case, I ordered it direct from Arrow three months after release and it didn't have one)

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#274 Post by DeprongMori » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:35 pm

Thanks Swo17. Possibly because this was released about the same time as Carruth’s public self-destruction, it seems no review disks were ever sent out and I can find no reviews of this release anywhere. I already have the Primer DVD and original Upstream Color Blu-ray release. I have been trying to find out whether the Primer image is an improvement over the DVD. Given that both films share a single disk leaves this ambiguous, and I’m guessing that Upstream Color is still transferred at the bit-rate typical of a single-layer disc and likely no better (and hopefully not worse) than the original Blu-ray.

Any pros or cons to report on this one?

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Re: Arrow Booklets: An International Tragedy

#275 Post by swo17 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:33 pm

I haven't cracked it open to check, but I have all three releases and can do a comparison this weekend

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