The Business of Subtitles

[MichaelB]

My copy of Amour [Artificial Eye] arrived today, and I can confirm that it does have fixed subtitles.

There's no option to remove them in the menu, and neither can they be removed via the remote - although pressing the 'subtitle' button does at least make it clear that they're electronically added by the player rather than being part of the video encode, so at least you don't get the downside of mild artefacting around the letters that often accompanies such things.

So the Beev is flat-out wrong - I've just emailed Gary to let him know.

[RossyG]

Annoying! I'm guessing this has been forced upon AE.

[MichaelB]

Annoying! I'm guessing this has been forced upon AE.

I'm sure it has - and I doubt it's a coincidence that both Amour and Holy Motors came from the same source.

[TMDaines]

I'm sure it could have been negotiated. Oh well, import it is.

[Gregory]

How can you be sure of that?

[zedz]

Because he's seventeen?

[MichaelB]

Amour and Holy Motors are close to commercial dead certs in a notoriously tricky marketplace, which means that Les Films du Losange held all the cards. If Artificial Eye wasn't prepared to lock the subtitles, they could always license the films to a more compliant distributor, as I suspect AE knew perfectly well.

In these situations, there's little you can do - look at poor MoC and their confident announcement four or five years ago that they wouldn't region-lock their BDs, only to end up region-locking the vast majority. They could have maintained their purist stance, of course, by only licensing those titles whose rightsholders were amenable to region-free releases - but if they'd done that, much of their BD catalogue wouldn't exist, including the more commercially attractive titles that subsidise their riskier acquisitions.

[TMDaines]

I don't think you can really compare region locking and fixing subtitles. They're two entirely different processes. MoC's proclamations were always a flight of fancy and doomed to be undermined.

Because he's seventeen?

Why do you feel the need to behave like an utter moron and attempt to belittle someone else with a completely unprovoked, personal attack?

In a matter of weeks or months, as we did with Holy Motors, we'll see a DVD/Blu-ray of Amour without fixed subtitles: almost 100% guaranteed. These things are never non negotiable. I'm sure there's been numerous occasions when labels, such as MoC, Criterion and others, who never fix subtitles, have been asked to do so initially and they've negotiated around it. AE almost certainly could have done the same, but perhaps didn't care enough about it to do so.

[MichaelB]

I don't think you can really compare region locking and fixing subtitles. They're two entirely different processes. MoC's proclamations were always a flight of fancy and doomed to be undermined.

If it's a contractual stipulation laid down by the rightsholder, there's no difference.

In a matter of weeks or months, as we did with Holy Motors, we'll see a DVD/Blu-ray of Amour without fixed subtitles: almost 100% guaranteed. These things are never non negotiable. I'm sure there's been numerous occasions when labels, such as MoC, Criterion and others, who never fix subtitles, have been asked to do so initially and they've negotiated around it. AE almost certainly could have done the same, but perhaps didn't care enough about it to do so.

Or, far more plausibly, they were compelled to do so because they were also releasing in Region B, and Les Films du Losange wanted to discourage importation to their home territory. This is much less of an issue with regard to Region A editions, as the vast majority of European Blu-ray users won't be able to play them - so I imagine they're less bothered.

[McCrutchy]

Or, far more plausibly, they were compelled to do so because they were also releasing in Region B, and Les Films du Losange wanted to discourage importation to their home territory. This is much less of an issue with regard to Region A editions, as the vast majority of European Blu-ray users won't be able to play them - so I imagine they're less bothered.

And in this case, all of the extras from the French BD have been ported as well, so the UK BD, which would be cheaper than the French one, would become even more desirable without forced subtitles.

[TMDaines]

I don't think you can really compare region locking and fixing subtitles. They're two entirely different processes. MoC's proclamations were always a flight of fancy and doomed to be undermined.

If it's a contractual stipulation laid down by the rightsholder, there's no difference.

Well sure, that goes without saying, but in terms of it being up for negotiation or being insisted upon there's no comparison. If AE wanted to ensure that their subtitles could be optional, they could have bartered for it. I'm not saying that perhaps it wouldn't have been ideal financially, but the idea that the licensor would have simply said NO in the face of any negotiations, I find incredibly hard to believe.

AE have pretty much lost a sale from me on Amour, unless all other Blu-ray releases are similarily or otherwise flawed, because of this and there's the knock-on effect that I simply will not be pre-ordering their titles in the future anymore, now that they've compromised their standards. Previously it would be pretty rare for me to stray from them if they were releasing a film I'm interested in.

[swo17]

Nothing goes without saying once one has departed from the plane of reality.

[MichaelB]

If AE wanted to ensure that their subtitles could be optional, they could have bartered for it. I'm not saying that perhaps it wouldn't have been ideal financially, but the idea that the licensor would have simply said NO in the face of any negotiations, I find incredibly hard to believe.

I'm guessing you've never been involved in negotiations for the rights to a commercially hot property where the rightsholder holds all the cards and would be certain of finding another distributor in the event of you walking away?

In all seriousness, instead of vaguely saying "they could have bartered for it", perhaps you could offer specific advice as to what you would have done in AE's position? Because I have been involved in such negotiations, and I can't think of anything.

[HJackson]

This sort of situation makes me glad that I'm a retard who doesn't know any foreign languages.

[MichaelB]

I can't stress enough that if you have no interest in switching off the subtitles, the disc is fine - the transfer is state-of-the-art, and the subtitles play exactly as they would had they been optional: they're not literally burned into the picture.

So for me it was a choice of going Region B and being able to watch it downstairs on the big plasma telly, or going Region A and (possibly) getting optional subtitles but being confined to my rather cramped office.

[TMDaines]

In all seriousness, instead of vaguely saying "they could have bartered for it", perhaps you could offer specific advice as to what you would have done in AE's position? Because I have been involved in such negotiations, and I can't think of anything.

If, as you're insinuating, it all comes to down to the finances of the deal and the aforementioned licensor wishing to "protect" their market from sub-licensed alternatives from abroad, one would have to make it financially desirable for them to agree to allow AE to have the subtitles optional on their releases.

I find it so strange that people have such an attachment to these businesses that when they compromise their product, we immeadiately presume that it had to be done and there was absolutely no alternative at any stage of the development. You might not care about this issue but for Christ's sake let's have some backbone and call people out when they tarnish their standards. We've had fifteen years of DVD and Blu-ray releases with this rarely being an issue, and more being a case of which labels have the basic sense to realise that a fair percentage of their market might have developed the capacity to speak a foreign language. We have to put up with enough shit in the home video market, where the pirated product can so often be superior, without now turning a blind eye and swallowing DVD/Blu releases having fixed subtitles.

[MichaelB]

If, as you're insinuating, it all comes to down to the finances of the deal and the aforementioned licensor wishing to "protect" their market from sub-licensed alternatives from abroad, one would have to make it financially desirable for them to agree to allow AE to have the subtitles optional on their releases.

I doubt that it's a financial issue - or at least not as far as AE is concerned. (Les Films du Losange presumably perceives it to be a financial issue, but that's outside AE's hands).

I find it so strange that people have such an attachment to these businesses that when they compromise their product, we immeadiately presume that it had to be done and there was absolutely no alternative at any stage of the development. You might not care about this issue but for Christ's sake let's have some backbone and call people out when they tarnish their standards.

If I genuinely didn't care about this issue, surely I wouldn't have mentioned it at all, as opposed to being the first person here to confirm that Blu-ray.com was correct?

But as a realist who's worked in and around this business for nearly a quarter of a century, I know that it's very unlikely to have been Artificial Eye's fault. Based on their track record, it's pretty clear to me that their own personal preference would have been a region-free edition with optional subtitles - but when they're put in a position where neither is possible, what exactly can they do?

We've had fifteen years of DVD and Blu-ray releases with this rarely being an issue, and more being a case of which labels have the basic sense to realise that a fair percentage of their market might have developed the capacity to speak a foreign language.

Les Films du Losange would presumably reply that French speakers who want a subtitle-free picture can simply import TF1's French BD. They get the royalties either way, so I doubt they're too bothered.

But on the "basic sense" point, with a title like this, they have to weigh up the pros and cons of agreeing to the deal. The cons are that a small number of people might refuse to buy it on principle - but given that this is a title that is probably going to sell very widely outside AE's usual target market (they've handled Palme d'Or winners in the past, but multiple Oscar nominees are largely new territory), this will have a negligible effect on their bottom line. Much more pragmatically, this is the kind of high-profile acquisition that AE has to make on a regular basis because it will inevitably subsidise riskier titles. Assuming that negotiation wasn't possible - and I suspect that it wasn't, given their lack of an obvious bargaining chip - surely this is the least worst option from their perspective? And therefore the one that makes the most... well, basic sense?

Obviously, I'm playing devil's advocate here - but if I was in AE's position, I'd probably have made the same decision if it genuinely is the case that region-coding and locked subtitles were non-negotiable. This is too valuable a property to throw away over a point of principle that most purchasers simply won't notice or care about.

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Out of mild curiosity is there anyone without a knowledge of french that wants removable subs? Since, as MichaelB points out, anyone who speaks french or is competent enough to follow french HoH can get the TF1.
So refusal of burnt in subs is due to a Ding an sich issue or am I missing something?
Is it a purist argument of the integrity of the image regardless of not understanding the dialogue perhaps?

[MichaelB]

Is it a purist argument of the integrity of the image regardless of not understanding the dialogue perhaps?

I can absolutely accept that argument philosophically, but it's something I've hardly ever put into practice myself. And my French is probably up to coping with this film - which, as David says, doesn't exactly push the linguistic envelope.

(I wonder if this has anything to do with Haneke's lack of native French? I also found Kieślowski's French-language films much easier to follow than the average French arthouse film, very possibly for similar reasons - and I saw The Double Life of Véronique in Paris for the first time. By contrast, UK distributors can force the subs on Eric Rohmer films to their hearts' content as far as I'm concerned - I'm most unlikely ever to switch them off!)

[repeat]

I don't think it's entirely a purist argument - if you watch and rewatch a film, you might eventually end up wanting to turn the subs off, especially if they're big/yellow/ugly ones. My French listening comprehension is WAY too bad to follow a previously unseen film without HOH subs, but with a film like Holy Motors, which doesn't exactly rely on dialogue (and which I've already seen several times), I'd certainly appreciate the option to watch without subs. (Not to mention the upcoming Bressons...)

Having said that I'll probably get the AE Blu for the Carax interview; otherwise might've gone for this inexpensive Spanish dual format (currently even cheaper than the AE) - except that if the speculations here are correct, that will undoubtedly have forced subs as well.

[MichaelB]

Yes, forced subs on the Bressons would certainly be a deal-breaker for me.

[TMDaines]

Out of mild curiosity is there anyone without a knowledge of french that wants removable subs? Since, as MichaelB points out, anyone who speaks french or is competent enough to follow french HoH can get the TF1.
So refusal of burnt in subs is due to a Ding an sich issue or am I missing something?
Is it a purist argument of the integrity of the image regardless of not understanding the dialogue perhaps?

Here's eight points why I'm against fixed subtitles:

1) It compromises the integrity of the image: there's simply no way I can watch the film without text on the screen.
2) The idea that because you're purchasing a DVD in England, your mother tongue will be English, is wrong. It's 2013, globalisation, multiculturalism, etc.
3) The idea that because you're purchasing a DVD in England, you won't have the capacity to speak French, is wrong. Ditto: it's 2013, globalisation, multiculturalism, etc.
4) You're compromising your customer's experience. I'll be the one to decide whether I need the subtitles, not you.
5) You're not using the DVD/Blu-ray format to its full capability. I would have hated to have been around when subtitles had to be burnt in with VHSs. One of the great things about DVDs/Blu-rays is their flexibility: use it.
6) Principle of the fact that the genuine release is hamstrung in a way that pirated alternatives needn't be.
7) It's a token gesture anyway. An HTPC (and certain players) will get around fixed subtitling. All you're doing is frustrating a subset of people and causing extra inconvenience for the people who paid for the product.
8) Even if it's a release I'm not particularly interested in, it's necessary to make clear to distributors that this is not a trend I'm willing to accept, as it will inevitably make a travesty of one I do deeply anticipate.

--
Edit:

I forgot my ninth:

9) The idea that you need subtitles to enjoy and appreciate a performance in a foreign language, which you don't speak, is wrong. I'm sure everyone can list films that they don't need subtitles for, and then of course there is the majesty of opera.

[MichaelB]

Yes, but none of this impassioned itemising comes close to addressing my original question of what Artificial Eye could have done in this situation. As so often in these discussions (I recall a similar one with Nothing over region-coding), you're talking in generalities whereas I'm interested in specifics. How would you persuade the rightsholders in a situation like this to change their minds, given that the present situation presumably suits them down to the ground?

[NABOB OF NOWHERE]

Why are all these points not remedied by the availability of the TFI ? As you say and have said on numerous occasions, global market plus internet= global consumer. The world is your huitre mon coco.

I do however accept repeat's point re multiple viewings,but that doesn't seem to figure in you 8 and a half point plan.

[swo17]

I could also come up with 9 reasons about why I hate it when MoC locks its releases region B (yes, even though I have a region-free player). I might even not buy/keep a release primarily because of this. But it's an absurd thing to complain about. AE likely agrees with you in principle. They would just rather release the film slightly compromised in this way than not be able to release it at all. Furthermore, any other company that would have released it in the UK would surely have had to put up with this issue as well.