Better Call Saul

Discuss TV shows old and new.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#151 Post by Kracker » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:39 am

cdnchris wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:05 am
SpoilerShow
It was great watching Ignacio stick it to tío Hector, but I found the whole thing just devastating. It was clear it was coming but I guess I was still hoping the writers came up with some insane scenario that we could all ridicule as lazy writing afterwards, but at least allowed him to get out of the situation and make it to Canada or wherever he was planning on running.

And, like others, I was surprised they closed that storyline off so soon in the season.
SpoilerShow
There was no way they were going to Canada, Nacho's dad was just too naïve and stubborn, thinking this could all magically go away if Nacho would just go to the cops. The "wolves and sheep" proverb comes to mind again. The sad tragic thing is he will probably never know the brave lengths Nacho went through just to protect him.

Also one thing the writers try to avoid is repeating themselves unless there's a really good reason. Its why Jimmy isn't going to just disappear Kim and Mike wasn't going to kill Nacho (which was another running theory)

Them closing off this storyline at this point is a good sign of what's to come
Last edited by Kracker on Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#152 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:43 am

cdnchris wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:05 am
SpoilerShow
It was great watching Ignacio stick it to tío Hector, but I found the whole thing just devastating. It was clear it was coming but I guess I was still hoping the writers came up with some insane scenario that we could all ridicule as lazy writing afterwards, but at least allowed him to get out of the situation and make it to Canada or wherever he was planning on running.
This is a great reason why I’m finding the spin-off to be much better than BB as a whole and on par with the best eps of the back half of its precursor- leaning into the sadness and realism of powerlessness with filterless, blistering sobriety, instead of opting for a tangible, fantastical audience-fulfilling dream third-option

RIP Film
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#153 Post by RIP Film » Mon May 02, 2022 10:04 am

SpoilerShow
Nacho was such an axial character to this series, it’s been a great contrast seeing Jimmy’s rise into this world juxtaposed with Nacho’s fall. Both characters good at heart but betrayed by who they think they should be, and can’t stop the momentum of events they find themselves in. I found this breakdown on YouTube to be enlightening, especially the point about Nacho hiding in the tanker and the baptism by oil, where afterwards he comes out resigned to his fate and to no longer being manipulated for anyone else’s ends; and that is such a powerful image after what his character has gone through. What a beautifully directed episode that was.


User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#155 Post by Kracker » Tue May 17, 2022 5:53 am

Great episode before the big mid-season finale. Ever since the closing events of "Rock and Hard Place", it's just been nothing but setup for what will no doubt be next week's payoff.

Giancarlo Esposito directed this one, titled "Axe and Grind", and we see a lot of great decisions from him, from the scene with Howard and his very distant wife, their strained relationship illustrated by a pair of bookending in-camera wide shots showing them separated as she enters and leaves to...
SpoilerShow
...the closing shot of Kim Wexler taking the "bad choice road" mentioned in Season 5, completely of her own accord, with Jimmy more than willing to back out of the plan. Giancarlo calls this shot Kim's "Moment of Doom".

We get another Kim flashback opener we assume is important and it is: Kim's mom helps her steal a pair of earrings by conning a store manager and it turns out Kim has been wearing those earrings the entire series, suggesting its not actually the tequila stopper with its connection to Jimmy that is the symbol of her dark impulses and that she has been harboring those impulses long before even meeting Jimmy. The expression on young Kim's face at the end is made as subtle as possible.

The Lalo/Casper scene is brief but, man, did they make it count. Casper making the mistake of giving Lalo the blunt side of the axe continues the theme of "no half measures"

We also get a great contained character arc in this episode with Francesca. She goes from being so happy over decorating Saul's office as she pleases to being corrupted by Saul's money while watching her interior design dream being literally pissed on, turning her into the Francesca we see in Breaking Bad, destined to have plexiglass separating herself from the filth of Saul's new class of clientele, right before our very eyes.

Also I was confused about the black book from the "Wine and Roses" opening sequence and why it was tossed as worthless, but it's revealed in this episode as the vet's black book, written in 'zodiac' so it would indeed be worthless without the cipher, which Saul will obviously be the one to purchase so he can take over his underworld side-hustle.
Last edited by Kracker on Wed May 18, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

RIP Film
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:53 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#156 Post by RIP Film » Tue May 17, 2022 10:59 pm

Yeah that’s a good summary.

So Kim continues to be the most interesting and complex character, though maybe because it’s hardest to see what’s turning her gears. Obviously she had to grow up early since her Mom was an immature, functioning alcoholic; and you get the sense her career path was chosen in contrast to what she saw in her: choosing responsibility, justice and fairness. But then there’s the other side, which chooses Jimmy, and ostensibly this comes from a sense of wanting to square her upbringing, for it to make some kind of sense that she can assimilate in an authentic way instead of rejecting it. She seems to tie herself to Jimmy in an effort to do this. It’s great writing that allows these characters and relationships to reveal themselves so organically, with Kim not being the positive influence you’d expect, and Jimmy being not quite the bad egg— but the two of them bringing out the most latent trauma in each other: Jimmy’s need for approval (especially after Chuck’s passing) and Kim’s search for authenticity.

If the goal of these last three episodes was to build up a sense of dread in their casualness, mission accomplished. Something bad is definitely coming for Kim, if not Howard as well (I half expected Mike’s guys to get mixed up with his PI). It’s not so much that these characters don’t appear in Breaking Bad, but that at this point Jimmy/Saul basically is the scumbag lawyer we see later on but hasn’t yet accepted his shadow, it’s all still fun and games.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#157 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed May 18, 2022 12:54 am

None of this was as effective as Kim's response to Jimmy throughout last seasons' cold-open flashback of hers. I think the show is still very good and it's probably heading for an exciting wallop, but I just hope they don't botch the ending this time, and earn emotional heights instead of rushing through the necessary narrative activity. For my money, this show has engaged in some of the most realistic depictions of relationship dynamics, family and interpersonal and romantic, that I've ever seen in media- so it's unfortunate that everything so far this season feels heavily diluted compared to what's come before. Neither central principal has been nearly as involving as they had previously, and this is in part because we're being kept in the dark of the scheme, but also... it's just very busy tying up loose ends.

User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#158 Post by Kracker » Thu May 19, 2022 12:15 am

RIP Film wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 10:59 pm
If the goal of these last three episodes was to build up a sense of dread in their casualness, mission accomplished. Something bad is definitely coming for Kim, if not Howard as well (I half expected Mike’s guys to get mixed up with his PI).
I was drawing a blank on how the PI would come into play but with this episode I figured it out and it certainly signals doom for Howard:
SpoilerShow
The PI is in Jimmy and Kim's pocket. End of the episode I noticed Jimmy's photos and Howard's photos from the PI look like they were taken by the same person. Also we finally get a good look at their post-it planning board and there's a magnifying glass drawn on one of the post-its. He's part of the plan. Might not even be a real PI. If they succeed, Howard may not know what hit him.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#159 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue May 24, 2022 12:56 am

SpoilerShow
What an incredibly controlled and fitting denouement, the beginnings of weavings strings together to the question of 'What happened to Kim?' Now, something might actually 'happen' to her that's louder than this incident, but I love how the show flipped a Breaking Bad-rooted assumption viewers had early in Better Call Saul's incarnations that she would meet a tragic demise, into something far more subdued and intangible but no less seething. Howard's death ignites sobriety to immorality's permanence in external and internal definitions: Fatalism and chance mesh together, and the pair will be grappling with philosophical questions of accountability for the unintended form of finite casualty sourced in their premeditated immoral behavior. And yet these are questions that Jimmy has been asking himself all series- sublimating his negative core beliefs about his nature into achievable sport. The perception of a permanence in 'self' rots a soul when one defines themselves by these negative traits, and Kim and Jimmy are a toxic match of complex and, in many ways, good people who bring out the worst in one another and themselves in a reciprocal system of resentment and protection that perpetuates harm.
Walter White's character's receptiveness thrived on the curtails of incremental moral vs survivalist dilemmas and comprehensible feelings of Americana ego and identity wrapped up in the possibilities of off-road power. His character is interesting and the performance is wonderful, but Jimmy and Kim are characters who are so much more developed and psychologically attractive in more delicate, yet rawer terms. They share the same core beliefs as so many of us, and have deep-rooted family histories that carry a degree of fatalism neither can alleviate in isolation, which is how they've felt throughout their lives. Intrinsically alienated. These are my kind of people, the kind of characters who reach wider audiences than White in their relatability, but who are so much harder to sell in a way that will move people to get vulnerable with themselves. Walter White was a distraction, but Jimmy and Kim are cracked mirrors.

I'm thrilled to see what the next six have in store.

User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#160 Post by Kracker » Tue May 24, 2022 4:11 am

"Howard c'mon, you always land on your feet" Oof

Man, me too. They raised the bar with this episode and they know it, and they aren't going to leave the BB universe forever on anything less than the highest peak. The episode title for this one wound up being horribly literal:
SpoilerShow
I would say this is Jimmy's "Ozymandias" moment but who can say with what Vince might have store for in these last six episodes.
Comparable to the mid-season BB finale "Gliding Over All", the plan goes off perfectly and they get away clean but SOMETHING just has to happen in the very last moment that sends things crashing down. I never thought I'd feel such sorrow for Howard as I did seeing him on Jimmy/Kim's floor as such a tragic casualty of the unintended consequences that Jimmy could in no way see coming but Kim may have but ignored in favor of keeping Jimmy from running away from the "ham scam", seeing how she was "made of sterner stuff". Which has me continuing to predict that the closing moment of "Hit and Run" where Kim doesn't tell Jimmy about Lalo ultimately plays the biggest part in Kim's fate and Jimmy and Kim's relationship will take a violent turn when he finds out she knew about Lalo. She may actually become the villain for these final episodes.

as for Kim, I'm betting her fate will be the last thing that's revealed. It's the number one reason people are watching the show now.

- Lalo seeing the cockroach down in the storm drain is what makes him think of paying Jimmy that fateful visit, as he told Kim: "Your man... he's like the cucaracha".

- Howard's blood splatters on the painting Jimmy and Kim used to make the 'ham scam' plan board.

- Nice touch having the portrait of Chuck and the soda can trick serving as his ghost. His exchange with the intern who didn't know who Chuck was and Howard's parting words "Maybe there are more important things" may be a foreboding realization that his legacy as one of the letters of HHM may be forgotten as well, perhaps another reference to "Ozymandias".

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Better Call Saul

#161 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue May 24, 2022 11:08 am

Clever finale, but still don't know that this show has ever had a handle on having these two worlds collide (nor did it ever feel completely natural having them running in parallel), and seeing it writ large in the timing of that incident was startling. Willing to go along for the ride, of course, but once the show comes in for a landing I think we have exhausted the possibilities of the underworld of Albequerque drug crime for a while.

flyonthewall2983
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Better Call Saul

#162 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 pm


User avatar
Boosmahn
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:08 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#163 Post by Boosmahn » Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:23 am

Breaking Bad series and BCS season six spoilers below. (Not as if anyone reading BCS spoilers hasn't seen Breaking Bad...)
SpoilerShow
Howard's death probably hits the hardest out of anyone's in the BB/BCS world. (Admittedly, I did know about the deaths of Gus, Hank, and Walt before I watched BB... but I also was spoiled about Howard's death several episodes prior!) It's a horrible, yet still entirely believable, consequence of Jimmy's and Kim's actions.

I'm very interested to see how the writers are going to wrap everything up in six episodes. Kim's fate, Lalo's fight against Gus' empire, and how "Gene" deals with his compromised identity all need resolutions. And Walt and Jesse are going to make an appearance somewhere in there? And there's a new character?!
Although I really liked Breaking Bad, I find Better Call Saul to be even more investing. The dynamic between Jimmy and Kim is probably the best between the two series.

User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#164 Post by Kracker » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:41 am

SpoilerShow
I didn't start watching BB until the final episodes starting airing so I figured Hank would have hit me harder had I invested the full 6 years with the character but I'd say Howard still hit harder simply because his is the most tragic. His is the character that "wasn't in the game" and didn't warrant the consequences.

I'd say I'd be impressed if they were able to wrap everything up but then again those last 8 episodes of BB were able to wrap everything up (except for Jesse Pinkman's escape, for obvious reasons) so i take it they've set that bar for themselves. The next episode is directed by Vince Gilligan so I will predict we get the final showdown and finish for Lalo. I would think Lalo will have to be off the board before the conflict between Jimmy and Kim can begin.
The Carol Burnett announce is pretty curious, the character's name is Marion, who as far as I can fathom hasn't been mentioned anywhere else in the BB universe so far? (Carol Burnett is actually mentioned in the "Rebecca" flashback by Chuck in S2)

flyonthewall2983
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Better Call Saul

#165 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm

SpoilerShow
My first guess is that she’s playing the latter-day version of Kim’s mother. But considering Jesse and Walter have a spot in these final episodes she could be maybe related to them somehow.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#166 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:56 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm
SpoilerShow
My first guess is that she’s playing the latter-day version of Kim’s mother. But considering Jesse and Walter have a spot in these final episodes she could be maybe related to them somehow.
SpoilerShow
Nah, don’t overthink it - in the Gene multiverse, The Carol Burnett Show is still running

User avatar
pianocrash
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:02 am
Location: Over & Out

Re: Better Call Saul

#167 Post by pianocrash » Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:37 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 pm
Carol Burnett joins the cast
SpoilerShow
Mike (still hasn't been able to kill Lalo, stares off into the distance): (grumbling noises)
Gus (watching Nick At Nite, opens flip phone and dials): Good evening, Carol!

User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#168 Post by Kracker » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:29 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:49 pm
SpoilerShow
My first guess is that she’s playing the latter-day version of Kim’s mother. But considering Jesse and Walter have a spot in these final episodes she could be maybe related to them somehow.
True, Mrs. Wexler's first name hasn't been revealed but its not going to be her. Beth Hoyt, the woman who plays Mrs. Wexler in flashbacks is so good its eerie. She even talks just like adult Kim. She nailed it so well I confused at first as to whether it was actually Seehorn in makeup. If Kim's mother comes back, Beth is reprising that role in old age makeup for sure.


EDIT:
SpoilerShow
The next episode is titled "Point and Shoot" indicating the showdown with Lalo. The episode after that is titled "Fun and Games" indicating the potential conflict and falling out between Jimmy and Kim due to their actions.
Last edited by Kracker on Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flyonthewall2983
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:31 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Better Call Saul

#169 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:46 pm

Wow I had no idea.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#170 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:19 pm

The final stretch opener felt about as forced as I feared, though to some extent what bothered me about it can be reframed as a strength
S6 E8Show
Perhaps the most glaring head-scratcher is how Lalo's master plan hinged heavily on knowing Fring's psychology from a behaviorist standpoint, and was overly confident in assuming that both Fring would personally go check out his lab with limited detail, and that Mike would take the incredibly-obvious bait in order to force Fring into that dilemma and/or position. On top of that, he's assuming he'll get the drop on Fring, as if he's a sheep mindlessly entering a trap with armed men, having proved himself to be savvy with safeguarded plans, completely discounting that knowledge of his behavior. It seems like an uncharacteristically risky, impulsive, and presumptuous triple-parlay gamble for a man who is typically so meticulous in taking his time to craft safe passages that he can control the outcomes of, and the same inverted-character traits can be attributed to the responses of both Fring and Mike.

Like, okay Lalo, you're really going to stack your cards on assuming that Mike et al. are going to hastily chase the breadcrumbs without stopping to think about it, thinking you're still at Jimmy and Kim's twiddling your thumbs, and that you would send Kim after hiding away establishing a time to strike, without a sneaky backup plan? That's just a dumb assumption from a smart character, and what's worse, other smart characters made similarly dumb assumptions on the same wavelength. It's just incredibly poor writing, and reminded me of the cop-out finale of endless fan-service coincidences that stained Breaking Bad's last chapter. But, on top of that, you're also going to assume that Fring will leave himself vulnerable and walk into a trap on impulse when his lab is threatened, after locking himself up and living in fear for a while? I get why Fring would be done and say 'enough is enough' when given the opportunity to face his rival with pride, but that's an 'imperfectly human' spontaneous choice, and should be treated as such rather than in accordance with the master plan's execution. For Lalo to assume multiple bets contingent on elements outside of his control will align is not only supernaturally perceptive from a psychological level, but runs counter to the patient and controlled decisions of the character.

However, this messy exchange -culminating in a sloppy anti-cathartic gunfight that could have gone either way- was powerful and effective if we see it as such, which I believe is how it's meant to be presented (that this all occurs under entirely-dark conditions kind of overstates how 'chance' the result of who dies and who doesn't is, deflating the fantastical expectations we've built from the prodigious battle of wits we've been tracing). Regardless of the providential set-up and implementation of variables in motion, Gilligan and co. are demonstrating how, when it comes down to it, these are not super men but fallible human beings, with impulsivity, emotional investment, hubris, etc. blocking their capabilities to exhibit entirely measured and logical responses. Mike is right that it didn't have to go down that way, and I have a feeling he'll have the chance to prove his dependably leveled behavior as a resource to Fring by the season's end. Also, Kim's cry to Mike asking where he was when he promised to be protecting them must be foreshadowing whatever will come between him and his daughter-in-law...
I hope the remaining five episodes aren't quite so rushed, at least not in a manner that is disrespectful to the characters' intelligences who we've been following, and thus to the audience's intelligence.

User avatar
starmanof51
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:28 am
Location: Seattleish
Contact:

Re: Better Call Saul

#171 Post by starmanof51 » Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:19 pm

Tend to agree with you. The basics of what happens next were pretty predictable from where they left off, and the attempts to swerve that felt plot armorish.
SpoilerShow
I guess Lalo's lucky both Jimmy and Kim were home and not just one of them? Or maybe we just accept he surveilled long enough to ascertain that

Mario G.
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:05 am

Re: Better Call Saul

#172 Post by Mario G. » Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:31 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 5:19 pm
The final stretch opener felt about as forced as I feared, though to some extent what bothered me about it can be reframed as a strength
S6 E8Show
Perhaps the most glaring head-scratcher is how Lalo's master plan hinged heavily on knowing Fring's psychology from a behaviorist standpoint, and was overly confident in assuming that both Fring would personally go check out his lab with limited detail, and that Mike would take the incredibly-obvious bait in order to force Fring into that dilemma and/or position. On top of that, he's assuming he'll get the drop on Fring, as if he's a sheep mindlessly entering a trap with armed men, having proved himself to be savvy with safeguarded plans, completely discounting that knowledge of his behavior. It seems like an uncharacteristically risky, impulsive, and presumptuous triple-parlay gamble for a man who is typically so meticulous in taking his time to craft safe passages that he can control the outcomes of, and the same inverted-character traits can be attributed to the responses of both Fring and Mike.

Like, okay Lalo, you're really going to stack your cards on assuming that Mike et al. are going to hastily chase the breadcrumbs without stopping to think about it, thinking you're still at Jimmy and Kim's twiddling your thumbs, and that you would send Kim after hiding away establishing a time to strike, without a sneaky backup plan? That's just a dumb assumption from a smart character, and what's worse, other smart characters made similarly dumb assumptions on the same wavelength. It's just incredibly poor writing, and reminded me of the cop-out finale of endless fan-service coincidences that stained Breaking Bad's last chapter. But, on top of that, you're also going to assume that Fring will leave himself vulnerable and walk into a trap on impulse when his lab is threatened, after locking himself up and living in fear for a while? I get why Fring would be done and say 'enough is enough' when given the opportunity to face his rival with pride, but that's an 'imperfectly human' spontaneous choice, and should be treated as such rather than in accordance with the master plan's execution. For Lalo to assume multiple bets contingent on elements outside of his control will align is not only supernaturally perceptive from a psychological level, but runs counter to the patient and controlled decisions of the character.

However, this messy exchange -culminating in a sloppy anti-cathartic gunfight that could have gone either way- was powerful and effective if we see it as such, which I believe is how it's meant to be presented (that this all occurs under entirely-dark conditions kind of overstates how 'chance' the result of who dies and who doesn't is, deflating the fantastical expectations we've built from the prodigious battle of wits we've been tracing). Regardless of the providential set-up and implementation of variables in motion, Gilligan and co. are demonstrating how, when it comes down to it, these are not super men but fallible human beings, with impulsivity, emotional investment, hubris, etc. blocking their capabilities to exhibit entirely measured and logical responses. Mike is right that it didn't have to go down that way, and I have a feeling he'll have the chance to prove his dependably leveled behavior as a resource to Fring by the season's end. Also, Kim's cry to Mike asking where he was when he promised to be protecting them must be foreshadowing whatever will come between him and his daughter-in-law...
I hope the remaining five episodes aren't quite so rushed, at least not in a manner that is disrespectful to the characters' intelligences who we've been following, and thus to the audience's intelligence.
I agree with most of this, but I don't think
S6 E8Show
Lalo's plan required Gus.

I read it as Lalo needing the lab cleared so he could get evidence to bring to the higher ups. It just so happened that Gus showed up so he pivoted to "video tour". I'm not confident that this is how the writers intended it, but that's what I'm going with.

I can't explain away the Gus decision though. Just feels an incredibly dumb decision that seems to have been created by working backwards from "Gus kills Lalo in the lab". I understand that Gus gets thrown off by Lalo (and in fairness to the writers, they've made a point of showing us that over and over again), but I still think heading over to the lab is a bit much. I think Lalo killing all six guys without even messing up his hair was also a bit much.

Which brings me to Lalo. I think his death was very disappointing. I've never been a fan of the character because it always felt the writers were a little too enamored by him and enjoyed writing for a character that could do anything. If you were to write down the feats Lalo pulled off you'd think he was a character in a cheesy network thriller, not something as meticulous and subtle as Better Call Saul. The writers even found a way to protect him when he was dead to rights against an axe, I mean who hits someone trying to kill you with the butt of an axe? This guy killed a house full of well trained assassins and now you're going to tell me he got thrown off by the lights going out? It was just a bit anticlimactic and him going out with a smile and a giggle was 100% the wrong emotion imo. I would have loved to see the mask crack a little after weeks of watching him be three 3 steps ahead and being the smartest guy in the room. The show spent so much time building him up, I think it would have been fitting to see him tear it all down due to a character flaw. I think we're maybe suppose to read he underestimated Gus, but I'm not sure that's super clear.

User avatar
cdnchris
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:45 pm
Location: Washington
Contact:

Re: Better Call Saul

#173 Post by cdnchris » Tue Jul 12, 2022 7:34 pm

I agree
SpoilerShow
that Lalo had no intention on facing Gus at the laundromat and was just going to document the lab and let the cartel take care of him. I can't remember the lines exactly but when Lalo was filming he was saying they could have had fun fileting Gus back in Mexico but since he was there he might as well just kill him.

But yeah, can't figure out why Gus thought it was a good idea to go there to begin with.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#174 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:34 pm

Mario G. wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:31 pm
S6 E8Show
I read it as Lalo needing the lab cleared so he could get evidence to bring to the higher ups. It just so happened that Gus showed up so he pivoted to "video tour". I'm not confident that this is how the writers intended it, but that's what I'm going with.
SpoilerShow
I think that's giving the writers way too much rope, and negating something they clearly set up with the previous episode's Lalo arc.

My first thought was that Lalo needed Gus to take him on the tour, for Gus to be implicated- otherwise it'd just be a random lab (I doubt Fring's name would be branded anywhere, nor Los Pollos Hermanos paraphernalia). But then I realized that this was his plan originally... in episode 7. A plan that he changed for a reason.

Remember that Lalo's call didn't remove any guards from the lab by sending Mike on the mission in this latest episode, he just entered the place and waited for Gus to arrive. Lalo made the call to remove the guards in the previous episode, giving him an opportunity to infiltrate the lab and get the evidence based on his original plan, but had second thoughts when he saw the rat. If he didn't want Gus to be there, what would be the purpose of Lalo halting his opportunity to go in from his close vantage point, or diverting Mike to Jimmy's? Why the extra steps? It makes absolutely zero sense if the plan was to do what he could have done in episode 7.

If this is seriously an argument we should consider, it reflects even worse on the show and their approach to character, as well as irredeemable disrespect for the audience: Lalo would be halting his plan to go ask Jimmy to taunt Gus to then go back and do the same thing he could have done without doing that. It would be solely for the purpose of killing Howard as a cheap device to tie things up, and go against the methodical and logical precision of Lalo's moves.

In the moment of spying the rat, Lalo made his first step away from pragmatic controlled outcomes, which in step with Breaking Bad/Saul's fatalistic irony, is the move that cements his downfall. He wanted to push things just a bit further, to have his cake and eat it too by getting Gus there as the cherry on top, and bit off more than he could chew. It became an emotional decision rather than a purely logical one, but there's still an internal logic as to why he makes that choice. To assume that he wasn't trying to lure Gus there makes episode 7's final act pointless, and positions Lalo as a character who decided to do an illogical thing just to make his own life harder and delay an opportunity to show the bosses the truth, which is something he's spent so long trying to accomplish. What?
Mario G. wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:31 pm
SpoilerShow
Which brings me to Lalo. I think his death was very disappointing. I've never been a fan of the character because it always felt the writers were a little too enamored by him and enjoyed writing for a character that could do anything. If you were to write down the feats Lalo pulled off you'd think he was a character in a cheesy network thriller, not something as meticulous and subtle as Better Call Saul. The writers even found a way to protect him when he was dead to rights against an axe, I mean who hits someone trying to kill you with the butt of an axe? This guy killed a house full of well trained assassins and now you're going to tell me he got thrown off by the lights going out? It was just a bit anticlimactic and him going out with a smile and a giggle was 100% the wrong emotion imo. I would have loved to see the mask crack a little after weeks of watching him be three 3 steps ahead and being the smartest guy in the room. The show spent so much time building him up, I think it would have been fitting to see him tear it all down due to a character flaw. I think we're maybe suppose to read he underestimated Gus, but I'm not sure that's super clear.
SpoilerShow
Very anticlimactic but fitting, because a) they're both imperfect and this scene proves that egoism pushed too far will not result in favorable outcomes, but even more importantly it shows that luck is a huge part of outcomes as well- again something these two shows have demonstrated as inherent to their worldviews, and b) only with the lights out was Lalo able to be killed. It's not a situation where Gus bested Lalo. Sure, he made a skillful move to take the lights out, but in doing so it became a game of pure luck, each of them shooting aimlessly at where they think their target is. Gus only wins because he's wearing a bullet proof vest. He hit Lalo in an area only an inch removed, if that, from where a vest would protect him if he was wearing that, and that has nothing to do with skill. Gus didn't aim for his head in the dark! I think this was the only fitting way for one of them (and we already obviously knew which one) to meet their fate. It doesn't take away from Lalo's skills nor give them to Gus. It's just chaos.

User avatar
Kracker
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Re: Better Call Saul

#175 Post by Kracker » Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:48 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:34 pm
SpoilerShow

Remember that Lalo's call didn't remove any guards from the lab by sending Mike on the mission in this latest episode, he just entered the place and waited for Gus to arrive. Lalo made the call to remove the guards in the previous episode, giving him an opportunity to infiltrate the lab and get the evidence based on his original plan, but had second thoughts when he saw the rat. If he didn't want Gus to be there, what would be the purpose of Lalo halting his opportunity to go in from his close vantage point, or diverting Mike to Jimmy's? Why the extra steps? It makes absolutely zero sense if the plan was to do what he could have done in episode 7.

Gus only wins because he's wearing a bullet proof vest. He hit Lalo in an area only an inch removed, if that, from where a vest would protect him if he was wearing that, and that has nothing to do with skill
SpoilerShow
You do see guards being removed from the laundry in this episode to deal with the situation, among them, Tyrus. He was lying back in his car waiting for guards to be removed so he could sneak into the place. He knew from surveilling for days that removing Mike wasn't enough.

Lalo didn't hit Gus in the vest, but his lower side, where the bullet would go clean through. I did like that touch where Gus had Lalo shoot him in the vest so that he wouldn't suspect he wanted him to lead him into the hole. A bulletproof vest though, loses its integrity after being shot at once.
SpoilerShow
Yea Lalo wasn't counting on Gus being at the laundromat nor did Gus count on him being there, as he told Mike. Lalo didn't count on Gus picking up that he didn't really care about "plan A" by changing his mind on who to send. Gus doesn't even know he knows about the lab, just knows that's really what he would want, and that's what drives his nagging sixth sense. In real life, each character would have different contingencies on how things would go, which we aren't going to see. If Gus didn't show then Lalo would have to improvise or fail and try again.


I was more disbelief over both Gus' lucky shot and Lalo just being able to take out Gus's men so easily. More so the latter. Lalo losing to Gus can at least be chalked up to being overconfident while being rattled/entertained by Gus's tirade and having to steady that camera, then not expecting the lights to go out and Gus having a gun somehow. Gus had six propped and steadied two-handed shots at Lalo, who was regaled to hitting a moving target in the dark one-handed.

But this episode wasn't rushed, there was nothing left to buildup after that cliffhanger, it would have been pained if they continued to drag it out beyond this episode. I liked how it neatly wrapped up Lalo with Jimmy uttering the now famous BB line "It wasn't me! I was Ignacio!", and knowing after that he'd never see or hear of Lalo again and lining up with the mentions of the characters in BB. With only five episodes left and two time jumps to hit, they gotta move it along. The next episode might be the last one we spend in the Jimmy McGill timeline.

I liked the beautiful opening shot but it took the tension out of the cliffhanger, pretty much reveals from the start that the situation gets resolved and cleaned up by the end of the episode. But it connects with the end of the episode, which they like to do. I figured Howard's death would weigh heavy on Mike and sure enough you see it in his face in the final scene. He tells his men to take it easy with handling Howard's corpse as if he feels its unfair that he would meet the same fate and grave as Lalo.
Last edited by Kracker on Tue Jul 12, 2022 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply