Who Gives Good Commentary?
- Maltic
- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:36 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
That's just silly. Actually, I never understood why people would comment on accent, tone-of-voice, etc
As for Bordwell, he's a busy man as it is, I guess, even in quasi-retirement.
As for Bordwell, he's a busy man as it is, I guess, even in quasi-retirement.
- therewillbeblus
- Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
How are Amy Simmons' commentaries, and- to keep in the topic of this thread- how is her commentary on the KL blu of Alps? Thinking of finally taking the plunge since it never seems to dip below ~$20 and that would certainly help my rationalization
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
I hate doing stuff on camera and haven’t done it for something like four or five years. Self-filmed stuff is a bastard to get right, although now that I have a technically competent son I might give him a go as a cameraman and see how that turns out.Maltic wrote:That's just silly. Actually, I never understood why people would comment on accent, tone-of-voice, etc
As for Bordwell, he's a busy man as it is, I guess, even in quasi-retirement.
(I have a current commission that could either turn into a video piece or a commentary, depending on how much material I can amass - the last time I had that choice and plumped for a shorter video piece was Second Run’s The Shop on the High Street, which is over two hours long and I thought I’d struggle to fill a commentary without a lot of padding. But a 40-minute video piece turned out to be ideal.)
- MichaelB
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Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
I haven’t heard that commentary (or indeed any of her others), but I edited her excellent, wide-ranging video essay about female mental illness for Indicator’s Lilith and enjoyed her similar piece on Paul Verhoeven’s Spetters (BFI). In fact, they're effectively short commentaries - I don't know how the BFI editor worked, but on Lilith she basically sent me an audio recording that I illustrated.therewillbeblus wrote:How are Amy Simmons' commentaries, and- to keep in the topic of this thread- how is her commentary on the KL blu of Alps? Thinking of finally taking the plunge since it never seems to dip below ~$20 and that would certainly help my rationalization
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
I had to listen to the Brian Blessed's Flash Gordon audio commentary and he sure seemed to be having a lot of fun but offered pretty much no insight at all (or rather nothing that couldn't have been summed up in 5 minutes instead of a 112 min audio commentary), since 99% of his commentary is him paraphrasing (hyperbolically, but not always) what's happening on-screen.
I know many people love this commentary, but I have no idea why anyone would rationnally find it purposeful considering how little info it brings to the listener and how, usually, commentaries like these (the commentator spending 99% of the com' simply paraphrasing the action) are particularly disliked and considered as one of the most useless type of audio com'.
I assumed it simply was because of Blessed's positive aura within the Flash Gordon's fandom, since I couldn't find any other logical reason to love so much such a commentary, especially since I never liked the movie much.
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
It's Brian Blessed, though. I suspect he's not quite as much of a national treasure outside the UK, but here he's right up there with David Attenborough and Alan Bennett, and so consequently there are plenty of my fellow compatriots who'd gladly listen to a two-hour commentary of him reading the phone directory. Rationality simply doesn't come into it.tenia wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:31 amI had to listen to the Brian Blessed's Flash Gordon audio commentary and he sure seemed to be having a lot of fun but offered pretty much no insight at all (or rather nothing that couldn't have been summed up in 5 minutes instead of a 112 min audio commentary), since 99% of his commentary is him paraphrasing (hyperbolically, but not always) what's happening on-screen.
I know many people love this commentary, but I have no idea why anyone would rationnally find it purposeful considering how little info it brings to the listener and how, usually, commentaries like these (the commentator spending 99% of the com' simply paraphrasing the action) are particularly disliked and considered as one of the most useless type of audio com'.
See also Jack Nicholson's commentary for The Passenger, which - and I'm really not exaggerating - could very easily double as an audio assistance track for blind people. But, again, I'm inclined to cut him a lot of slack because it's Jack Nicholson, and even though he rarely does much more than simply describe what's on screen, it's still a weirdly compelling experience. Is this his only commentary, out of interest? I can't think of another one off the top of my head.
(Although since we were well aware of the Nicholson commentary's content shortcomings we commissioned a new one from Adrian Martin, who was absolutely in his element.)
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Yes, I suspected it definitely was simply him and his domestic aura, but I expected something so much better (and different) when listening to it for the first time that I wondered what people were talking about.
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
On the subject of paraphrasing the action in general, this is something I have to be constantly aware of. My stuff tends to be very scene-specific, and I'm extremely conscious of the danger of just slipping into describing what's on screen - Brian Blessed and Jack Nicholson may be able to get away with it, but I definitely can't! The trick is to prepare thoroughly enough to make sure that in every case where you're addressing what's on screen directly, you regularly pepper it with enough additional material that isn't obvious to the viewer.
Come to think of it, here's an example of me trying to maintain this balance, from Arrow's The Night of the Shooting Stars, although I still cringe at the bit at 3:43 where I completely failed to mention that the two girls are Taviani offspring (one per brother) - something that I knew beforehand but for some reason forgot to bring up when it mattered.
(Incidentally, my alternating between "San Martino" and "San Miniato" isn't a mistake, although it sounds like one without the context that I provided before this excerpt - San Martino is the fictional town where the film takes place, San Miniato the real-life town where Paolo & Vittorio Taviani grew up. Although listening to it again, I suspect I probably should have said "church" instead of "cathedral", although there must have been a reason why I plumped for the latter.)
Come to think of it, here's an example of me trying to maintain this balance, from Arrow's The Night of the Shooting Stars, although I still cringe at the bit at 3:43 where I completely failed to mention that the two girls are Taviani offspring (one per brother) - something that I knew beforehand but for some reason forgot to bring up when it mattered.
(Incidentally, my alternating between "San Martino" and "San Miniato" isn't a mistake, although it sounds like one without the context that I provided before this excerpt - San Martino is the fictional town where the film takes place, San Miniato the real-life town where Paolo & Vittorio Taviani grew up. Although listening to it again, I suspect I probably should have said "church" instead of "cathedral", although there must have been a reason why I plumped for the latter.)
- Cash Flagg
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- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Well, it made me laugh, so that's a good enough reason. My attitude from the moment that I first went online more than a quarter of a century ago is that if someone dishing out gratuitous abuse isn't prepared to sign their real name to it, it's not worth taking seriously.
I'm also reasonably sure from the wording that it's a troll that we've seen round these parts too.
I'm also reasonably sure from the wording that it's a troll that we've seen round these parts too.
- brundlefly
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:55 pm
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Unsure whether I've heard any others by her, but remember this one a lousy listen. Between its many redundancies and the way she seemed to free associate to other genre films with which it felt she was more familiar, it's a bunch of jumbled notes and an occasional glance at the screen. The MoC disc also has an audio essay by Amy Simmons, who's been mentioned here as well; even though only a fraction of that deals with White Reindeer -- there's more about Danes than Finns -- it's crafted, pointed, and succinct.
- Maltic
- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:36 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
I generally prefer critical/scholarly commentaries. After all, that's what critics and scholars were trained to do - researching, analysing, presenting the results. While, as Plato supposedly said (by way of Borges), artists don't understand their own creations because they're inspired directly from the Gods.
That said, there are obviously some great cast/crew commentaries, even jokey ones, like Joe Dante & co. on The Howling and Innerspace. Kurt Russell and Carpenter did the one on Big Trouble in Little China, where Russell basically provides a laugh track, but it's still enjoyable and informative. More seriously, John Boorman's commentary w/ Steven Soderbergh on Point Blank I found interesting. Young hip director having Lee Marvin, Dickinson, and a crew of grand old MGM veterans at his disposal. Charles Burnett's commentary w/ Richard Peña on the Killer of Sheep DVD is invaluable.
As for paraphrasing, John Mueller's Swing Time commentary tends to do that with the Astaire-Rogers moves, almost frame-by-frame, but as a dance know-nothing, I still found it kind of useful.
Edit: That's an interesting clip, Michael. (I haven't seen the film)
That said, there are obviously some great cast/crew commentaries, even jokey ones, like Joe Dante & co. on The Howling and Innerspace. Kurt Russell and Carpenter did the one on Big Trouble in Little China, where Russell basically provides a laugh track, but it's still enjoyable and informative. More seriously, John Boorman's commentary w/ Steven Soderbergh on Point Blank I found interesting. Young hip director having Lee Marvin, Dickinson, and a crew of grand old MGM veterans at his disposal. Charles Burnett's commentary w/ Richard Peña on the Killer of Sheep DVD is invaluable.
As for paraphrasing, John Mueller's Swing Time commentary tends to do that with the Astaire-Rogers moves, almost frame-by-frame, but as a dance know-nothing, I still found it kind of useful.
Edit: That's an interesting clip, Michael. (I haven't seen the film)
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Some do, some don't. John Waters' commentaries are invariably superb, and Herschell Gordon Lewis's are vastly superior to the films that he's talking over, as he cheerfully acknowledges (he must be the only filmmaker ever to refer to one of his films being "excreted" rather than released). Ken Russell also gives excellent value, and knows when to catch the right tone - his commentary for Song of Summer (the film of which he's personally proudest) is very different from his one for Lair of the White Worm, but that's entirely fitting. And a left-field nomination would be Dick Clement, director of Otley and A Severed Head - perhaps it's not surprising that his commentaries (both for Indicator) are consistently witty and well-observed, given that his directing career largely fizzled out in favour of being co-writer of some of Britain's most beloved sitcoms and comedy-dramas (The Likely Lads, Porridge, Auf Wiedersehen Pet), but when combined with uncannily good recall of the day-to-day filming process on each film they work especially well.Maltic wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:16 pmI generally prefer critical/scholarly commentaries. After all, that's what critics and scholars were trained to do - researching, analysing, presenting the results. While, as Plato supposedly said (by way of Borges), artists don't understand their own creations because they're inspired directly from the Gods.
And of course we've all heard critical/scholarly commentaries that badly miss the mark, which is why I don't prejudge them until I've had a chance to hear them for myself. And I'm also very fond of one-offs like the This Is Spinal Tap commentary by the band in character, which was like watching the film again for the first time (the running gag is that they hate the film and especially despise Marti DiBergi, its fictional director) - I can see an approach like that being disastrous in 99% of cases, but it works peculiarly well here.
- JSC
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 9:17 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Would love to see Salome's Last Dance get a decent release someday, especially since Russell gave a good commentary for the old Image disc.by MichaelB » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:31 pm Ken Russell also gives excellent value, and knows when to catch the right tone - his commentary for Song of Summer (the film of which he's personally proudest) is very different from his one for Lair of the White Worm, but that's entirely fitting.
- Sternhalma Weinstein
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:02 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.yoloswegmaster wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:32 pmWhile we're on the topic of commentaries, I just saw a less-than-flattering post about Michael Brooke today:
Didn't know he did commentaries -- the video segments I've seen him in were unwatchable, like a lisping speedfreak struggling to keep up with a teleprompter, completely unnatural and offputting.
I guess the "internet definition" of "troll" is now the same as that of "Nazi" and "racist" -- i.e. someone you disagree with? It must be nice to live in your own fantasy world with your own rules! In fact, my post was on topic, so that's the end of that. If anyone is a troll, it is "yodaswinemaster" above, who clearly is trying to get a rise out of users here with his "anonymous" re-posting.Cash Flagg wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:25 amAt the risk of stating the obvious, that post came from a troll account. Not sure why it was necessary to repost it here.
"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)MichaelB wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:29 amWell, it made me laugh, so that's a good enough reason. My attitude from the moment that I first went online more than a quarter of a century ago is that if someone dishing out gratuitous abuse isn't prepared to sign their real name to it, it's not worth taking seriously.
I'm also reasonably sure from the wording that it's a troll that we've seen round these parts too.
As for "taking someone seriously" -- this business of handwringing over academic vs. "amateur" commentary never fails to disgust me. It should be noted that it's almost always the credentialed academics who lose their gourds when the issue is brought up, and who obviously feel threated that someone might care enough about a subject to be an autodidact, and not need the approval of "peer review" to publish or speak on the matter. It's obviously a case-by-case basis, but there's a loooong history of "fans" who have contributed research and study of important artists that would have been lost or buried if the "academy" or mainstream media had anything to say about it.
Does anyone know more about Bava than Tim Lucas? Please, tell me who. Would the attention paid to Theodore Sturgeon, Philip K. Dick, or Brian Wilson's SMiLE recording exist if not for the late Paul Williams exaustive dedication? Hardly.
But, of course this is off-topic (apparently grounds for calling other members "trolls" - though I'm interested in words that actually have meanings) so let's turn this dead horse around:
The commentary for Kino's Secret of My Success is almost unlistenable! Why? I'm sure any of the duplicitous members reading this will be happy to scour the other board and lift my quote there, saving me the trouble. I appreciate it! Suffice to say the track is awful for the same reasons I think Brooke's AV stuff is awful: a stuttering, speed-addled, halting presentation. Bryan Reesman's research is very thorough (he even went to the trouble to interview cast members) but the tone of the presentation is verging on mental illness.
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
You're assuming that I cared enough to Google, which I obviously didn't.Sternhalma Weinstein wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)
- yoloswegmaster
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Please forgive me for not instantly recognizing your name.Sternhalma Weinstein wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm
Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.
- Maltic
- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:36 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Odd to be angry that someone reposted a shit-post of yours without graciously citing the source.
Who knows more about Bava than Lucas does? Bava's mother, probably, but that wasn't the point. And as I said, you can't fault Lucas' research, and I liked his Leone commentary...
Who knows more about Bava than Lucas does? Bava's mother, probably, but that wasn't the point. And as I said, you can't fault Lucas' research, and I liked his Leone commentary...
- Sternhalma Weinstein
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:02 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Hilariously disingenuous evasion, your "What, me?" act, after posting that shit above. Keep it real, "420" dudeyoloswegmaster wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:41 pmPlease forgive me for not instantly recognizing your name.Sternhalma Weinstein wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm
Not sure why you felt the need to post this without attaching my name to it... unless you're simply stirring the pot. You knew I posted it, as you yourself posted immediately after me in that same blu-ray.com thread.
- Sternhalma Weinstein
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:02 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
But you cared enough to make half a dozen responses about the repost, nonetheless. Fact is, you're just upset you couldn't figure out how to worm in yet another reference/namedrop to your own work, as you always tend to do. "Indeed."MichaelB wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:33 pmYou're assuming that I cared enough to Google, which I obviously didn't.Sternhalma Weinstein wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:22 pm"The wording"? Come on, Mike, enough with the coy obtuseness. A simple google search by you (or "yogasmega" above) would have settled the authorship in 15 seconds, and we could all cut to the chase knowing that I post on both boards under the same name (which is more than I can say for some members, who for whatever reason post under one name here and another there...)
- DarkImbecile
- Ask me about my visible cat breasts
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Have a nice couple of weeks away from the forum, Sternhelma.
- yoloswegmaster
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:57 pm
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
To keep it on topic, KL announced today that they were going to release George Sherman's 'Larceny'
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
Martin’s rate is over three times what Ellinger et al accept from Kino Lorber. Like a lot of independent contractor work, the market suffers when less highly qualified people lower their rates and corner cutters use them, creating a new lowered expectation for what the going rate is in generalMaltic wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:04 pm
BTW. Nick Pinkerton apparently had said something unfavourable about Mark Kermode recently and Kermode responded on Twitter saying that film critics shouldn't criticize each other. I noticed that, in the replies to Kermode's tweet, Ellinger called out Adrian Martin. She speculated that Martin had made his comments because he was unhappy not to have the commentary jobs for himself.
- tenia
- Ask Me About My Bassoon
- Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am
Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
But if audio commentaries are getting revived thanks to the hundreds annual releases of Kino, isn't it also a question of supply vs demand question ? It's bound to require more people to cover all those, thus opening the market for more people and "massify" it a bit, hence the expectable lower rates. It's not always a question of qualifications, but it's easier to maintain high rates when it's "either you" or nothing since the label won't have a lever for negociation.
As for the above discussion about "troll", I'm fascinated bt how people making hyperbolic crap-posts can end up thinking more and more the term is abused as a very broad way. Trolling has a specific meaning in terms of posting content and behavior and, well, the people accused of it often have been troll posting. Sometimes, things are just that simple.
As for the above discussion about "troll", I'm fascinated bt how people making hyperbolic crap-posts can end up thinking more and more the term is abused as a very broad way. Trolling has a specific meaning in terms of posting content and behavior and, well, the people accused of it often have been troll posting. Sometimes, things are just that simple.
- MichaelB
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Re: Kino Lorber Studio Classics Acquisitions
No, I was just continuing to take part in what for the most part was a perfectly amiable and mutually respectful conversation.Sternhalma Weinstein wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:11 pmBut you cared enough to make half a dozen responses about the repost, nonetheless. Fact is, you're just upset you couldn't figure out how to worm in yet another reference/namedrop to your own work, as you always tend to do. "Indeed."
And I didn't bother Googling because I immediately recognised who you were from Yoloswegmaster's original unattributed quote - the latest incarnation of this guy, a self-confessed troll (which I trust answers Tenia's point above) who was banned last year, a few months before you registered here and started posting from the start as though you were a veteran (always a giveaway).
Of course, I could be wrong and it could just be an unfortunate series of coincidences, and I agree that a full-strength jury might hesitate to convict on that evidence alone - but others are welcome to click on my second link and compare not just the writing style but the fondness for gratuitous personal abuse (of Domino Harvey this time).