The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

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Lino
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#26 Post by Lino » Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:04 pm

DVDTalk reviews the new edition of The King and I, which is probably my favorite R&H musical mainly because of the two main characters, Yul Brynner and Deborah Kerr. They also include a visual comparison between the old and the new editions.

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Belmondo
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#27 Post by Belmondo » Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:43 pm

I just watched the "road show" version of South Pacific on disc two of the new set. Sure enough, it is static, bloated, actually longer than the original show, awkward, dubbed by other singers, horribly filtered in the musical numbers, and filmed on location in Hawaii in order to prevent any last, lingering hope of intimacy. I loved it. Here is the proof that you cannot entirely wreck a Rodgers and Hammerstein show even when you try. The music and lyrics are just too good - "some enchanted evening, you may meet a stranger, across a crowded room", "you've got to be taught to hate and fear, its got to be drummed in your dear little ear", "one love to be living for, this nearly was mine". Are we in danger of losing all of this simply because modern audiences will not accept the old Broadway convention in which a character suddenly bursts into song? Movie musicals must now have the songs presented as part of a stage show as in "Cabaret", or "imagined" by the characters as in "Chicago". Did Rodgers and Hammerstein and their huge talent have the misfortune of arriving on the scene too early? Sure, they will be regularly revived on Broadway, but I'm talking big picture here and that means movies. I had a surprisingly deep emotional reaction when I heard the lyric "you've got to be taught to hate and fear", and the many flaws in the film version did not prevent that from happening several other times. I hope we are not slowly losing something worth saving. If so, then another type of drama comes to mind. That one is called Tragedy.

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justeleblanc
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#28 Post by justeleblanc » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:28 am

Belmondo wrote:Did Rodgers and Hammerstein and their huge talent have the misfortune of arriving on the scene too early?
They were at the right time. It's what's happened recently that's the issue.

I'm not sure whether it has to do with certain associations of a musical's base audience, certain associations about the current state of Broadway, or just certain issues with the form itself that most writers or composers are unable to work-out on their own, but the musical has become a joke. Though not to me, I'm a huge defender of it (the form, not the crappy musicals that have been written recently). Still, if either Rodgers or Hammerstein or Sondheim, or a few others were twenty years old today, they'd probably want to pursue more respectable modes of storytelling.

As for the R & H movies, Carousel is a perfect example of a shitty movie made back in the day. The songs are never fully integrated into the show and the sensitive issue of wife beating is phoned in. It's a shame too, because it's easily their best show. But it should never be treated as a "grand" show like King & I or Oklahoma -- the themes aren't broad enough. You know, I'd actually argue that the script/lyrics/music to Carousel were ahead of its time.

If anyone doubts it, you should go to the library and check out the script and score to the show. Take an extra special look at "What's the use of wond'rin'," "Soliloquy," and "If I loved you." It kills me when these songs get simplified by hack directors and shallow singers.

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tryavna
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#29 Post by tryavna » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:57 pm

After having had the two-disc Carousel disc in my collection for about a year or so (mainly for Lang's Liliom), I finally decided to break out the featured title last night and watch it. Dear God, is Carousel a truly awful movie! I had been out drinking earlier in the evening and even that didn't help. It's so static and flatly staged and directed that you wonder why they even bothered going on location in Maine in the first place. They barely use the location at all -- let alone creatively. Cameron Mitchell is the only person who manages to inject any life into the film, and he disappears just at the point when the story, in the proper hands (i.e., Lang's), could really take off. But in Henry King's hands, the film just limps off to its conclusion. (I actually like some of King's other films for Fox, but the fact that he basically replaced John Ford as Fox's prestige director makes you realize just what Zanuck lost when Ford left the studio.)

And this morning over breakfast, I was listening to bits and pieces of the commentary track (with Shirley Jones and the bafflingly insipid Nick Redman), and it's like they're watching an entirely different movie. You'd think that watching the movie was some sort of spiritually transcendent experience for them!

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Mr Sheldrake
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#30 Post by Mr Sheldrake » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:06 pm

I watched the new Blue-ray version of South Pacific last night. I've never cared much for the movie or the theatrical version, but the blue ray is absolutely magnificent. Color and clarity to drop a jaw. Hard to believe a 50 year old movie could look this good. I guess the original Todd A-O process must have something to do with it?

skweeker
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#31 Post by skweeker » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:52 pm

The blu-ray of South Pacific is indeed technically magnificent: beautiful detail, and there are some big dragonflies flitting about in some scenes. The movie itself has always struck me as disagreeably strange, though: the war & comedy & romance & songs plus color filters... well...

I must admit that as I have aged the music in all of these Fox R & H musicals has become more tolerable to my ear. But all of the movies (bar The Sound of Music) seem far too "stagey & static" (and the depictions of people just a mite too sexist (Carousel) or racist (The King & I) ) for me. Tastes have changed a little too much since the fifties and early sixties, I guess. That said, the 1945 Jeanne Crain version of State Fair was an agreeable surprise to me. Good Americana, great songs, and much much better than the 1962 version. Sadly, in the context of the set, it's an outlier and hence atypical in style.

Speaking of atypical, I think that Lang's Lilliom is perhaps the best movie in the set!

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#32 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:16 am

davidhare wrote:It also had the unusual benefit of being filmed at 30fps which of course eliminated flicker. A still unanswered question to me is whether Fox has created the BluRay transfer from 30fps elements, and if so, how has this been renedered for BluRay 24fps playback, if at all?
A bit late, but for clarification, South Pacific was shot at 24fps, the first Todd-AO production to use that format exclusively. Only Oklahoma! and 80 Days had 30fps versions.

To answer the hypothetical question, a 30fps film on Blu-ray would most likely be encoded in 60i instead of 24p. HD DVD supported 30p, but Blu-ray doesn't -- this came up back in '06 when a Nine Inch Nails concert video was released in its original 30p on HD DVD and in 60i on Blu. But some players and monitors can go from 60i to 30p via 2:2 pulldown, so it's not all bad.

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Antoine Doinel
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#33 Post by Antoine Doinel » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:46 pm

The music publishing rights for Rodgers and Hammerstein have been purchased by Imagem Music Group.

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colinr0380
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#34 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:26 am

I've only just noticed this topic, mainly because while I did not mind Carousel (even if "You'll Never Walk Alone" has lost all meaning for me by being the unofficial anthem of a local football team and therefore badly/drunkly sung by rowdy supporters in the background of local news reports whenever the team is playing!) and have a guilty love of The Sound of Music if just for the novelty value of perky Swiss ex-nuns battling Nazis in a song contest, I detest Oklahoma! with a passion! Though that might be because I always identified more with Steiger's mentally challenged hulk Jud Fry than the insipid, shallow, callous in their own way (the only difference being the way the cardboard couple have the full support of the townspeople, while Fry is the outsider), lead couple. It is second only in my most hated musicals list to Fiddler On The Roof and its happy ending for our conservative family as they escape to America while the rebellious daughter marries outside her faith and stays behind to live in persecution and maybe have a worse fate - a fate which the film seems to fully condone.

However I have to admit to finding South Pacific intriguing from the way DH describes it! Nothing like male beefcake and inept framing to arose interest for unintended(?) reasons! Though I seem to remember having tried to watch it twice before and falling asleep ten minutes in on both occasions!
Last edited by colinr0380 on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HarryLong
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#35 Post by HarryLong » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:58 am

Stewpot is still the image that turned me gay all those decades ago.
I've tried several times to wade through the mis-begotten mess of SOUTH PACIFIC. When I need a Stewpoy fix I pop in ATTACK OF THE GIANT LEECHES.

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jsteffe
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#36 Post by jsteffe » Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:23 pm

david hare wrote:And of course for fans of such things, the "Nothing Like a Dame" scene is one of the greatest pieces of Tom o Finland/AMG beefcake in cinema history - casting for the topless male chorus looks like it was done by Raging Stallion Video, minus the waxing and bikini lines etc.
At the risk of pedantry, it's Ranging Stallion Studios.

But yes, I'm totally there. The transfer caught my attention and your description of that musical number closed the sale.

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manicsounds
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#37 Post by manicsounds » Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:39 am

After finally watching "The Sound Of Music" all the way through on my own (only saw clips, pieces, or partial tv broadcasts, but never fully), decided to wade through the extras, disc 2 of the blu-ray must be more than 7 hours of material. But the question is about the first disc:

Can anyone access the commentaries while watching the picture in picture? Can't get them to play at the same time. Maybe that's just how it is...


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manicsounds
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#39 Post by manicsounds » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:04 am

I was thinking just recently about if I should get the "South Pacific" disc or not. Guess I should wait.

I wonder if this means an upgrade for Fritz Lang's "Liliom" to Bluray as well... Or just in Standard Def...

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ianthemovie
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#40 Post by ianthemovie » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:08 am

Can anyone confirm whether the DVD (not Blu) R&H box set contains both the CinemaScope and Todd-AO versions of Oklahoma? Relatedly, does anyone know whether either or both of those versions are time-compressed? I seem to recall that the version I saw had been sped up. Basically, I'm asking if there is a decent (i.e., non-time-compressed, CinemaScope) version of the film in the box. I have the set, but it's not with me, so I can't check myself.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#41 Post by Roger Ryan » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:28 pm

ianthemovie wrote:Can anyone confirm whether the DVD (not Blu) R&H box set contains both the CinemaScope and Todd-AO versions of Oklahoma? Relatedly, does anyone know whether either or both of those versions are time-compressed? I seem to recall that the version I saw had been sped up. Basically, I'm asking if there is a decent (i.e., non-time-compressed, CinemaScope) version of the film in the box. I have the set, but it's not with me, so I can't check myself.
Not definitive proof, but Amazon reviews confirm that the box set version does include both the CinemaScope and Todd-AO versions of OKLAHOMA. Also, the stand-lone DVD, which also has both versions, shows a 145 minute running time which matches the official length on IMDb. Honestly, I can't imagine why a home video release would be time compressed; the egregious process is only done on broadcast television showings to make a film conform to a specified time slot while retaining all the necessary commercial breaks.
Last edited by Roger Ryan on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#42 Post by domino harvey » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:31 pm

ianthemovie wrote:Can anyone confirm whether the DVD (not Blu) R&H box set contains both the CinemaScope and Todd-AO versions of Oklahoma? Relatedly, does anyone know whether either or both of those versions are time-compressed? I seem to recall that the version I saw had been sped up. Basically, I'm asking if there is a decent (i.e., non-time-compressed, CinemaScope) version of the film in the box. I have the set, but it's not with me, so I can't check myself.
I have the US DVD box and it does contain both versions, on separate discs within a slimpack

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jsteffe
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#43 Post by jsteffe » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:57 pm

Here is what DVD Savant said about the 30fps Todd-AO transfer on the US 40th Anniversary Edition of Oklahoma, which is presumably the same as that the US DVD box set collection that you mention.
Disc one comes with the standard CinemaScope show we've seen mostly on television for forty years or so, and Disc two has another transfer of the Todd-AO version that came back in the early 90s. Savant went directly for the Todd-AO cut and was mildly disappointed - it's enhanced and should be an improvement on the earlier disc, but the transfer element is unaccountably soft and mushy, seriously so. This cancels out most of the benefit of the higher frame rate. I guess we'll have to wait for HD to straighten this one out. To simply watch the show, the CinemaScope version is the best choice.
From what I heard--and what DVD Savant seems to be saying--the problem was that for the Todd-AO version they just reused the older laserdisc transfer. That might account for the image's lack of resolution.

ianthemovie, It's hard to explain any time compression, unless you were viewing the 24fps CinemaScope version on a Region 2 PAL DVD, in which case they might have transferred it at 25fps.

If they were to release the 30fps Todd-AO version on Blu-ray, then I guess they would have to release it as 1080/29.97i since 1080/24p obviously wouldn't work. Still, it would be nice to see a new transfer of the Todd-AO version since it has better performances. I wonder if the elements for the Todd-AO version are in good condition?

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ianthemovie
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#44 Post by ianthemovie » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:44 pm

Great; thanks, all. Next time I have access to the disc I'll have to check it out again. I could swear that it had that weird, disorienting sped-up look for some reason but it's nice to know that no one else can confirm this, or why it would be compressed for DVD (unless it was in order to fit both versions of the film on one disc? I don't know). I certainly was not watching it in R2.

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domino harvey
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#45 Post by domino harvey » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:59 pm

Individual Blu-rays for the King and I and Oklahoma (both versions) coming October 7

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jsteffe
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#46 Post by jsteffe » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:16 pm

domino harvey wrote:Individual Blu-rays for the King and I and Oklahoma (both versions) coming October 7
OKLAHOMA should be worth getting. Apparently Fox has performed a much-needed, major restoration of the Todd AO version of OKLAHOMA. It screened at Il Cinema Ritrovato in Bologna and Schawn Belston lectured on it, though I was unable to attend either of them due to the overabundance of programming at the festival.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#47 Post by EddieLarkin » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:21 pm

The Todd-AO version looks amazing, certainly one of the most impressive catalog films I own, and is far superior to the CinemaScope version.

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domino harvey
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Re: The Rodgers and Hammerstein Musicals

#48 Post by domino harvey » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:44 pm

Oklahoma is in fact the only title I am even remotely interested in upgrading from the DVD set I already own

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