The Searchers

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tryavna
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#51 Post by tryavna » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:19 pm

Gregory wrote:(I think what I discussed in the second part of my first post and the first part of my second still bear consideration.)
Oh, I agree. I wasn't opposing all of your assertions. I think that Zedz and I view The Searchers as probably leaning more towards the liberal/progressive end of Ford's thinking whereas it seems you and perhaps Andre view it as more conservative at heart. I doubt that the ideological distance between our interpretations of the film is great; the nature of Ford's thinking (his continuing love of military ritual and his paternalistic attitude towards Native Americans, for example) makes it difficult to argue for too radical of an agenda behind this -- or just about any -- Ford movie.

To be honest, I've just enjoyed discovering that the movie offers such fertile ground for this sort of discussion. I've become too used to simply trying to defend its greatness against the recent trend of referring to it dismissively as "overrated" (as embodied in Metcalf's article).

Ishmael
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#52 Post by Ishmael » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:41 am

Andre Jurieu wrote:I guess it comes down to perspective...
Very true. So doesn't the fact that you and I have completely different opinions about Ethan's psychology prove that he is, in fact, a highly ambiguous character?

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HerrSchreck
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#53 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:11 pm

I think Ford, in using Wayne-- especially if Wayne was unapologetic about Ethan-- was doing precisely what was necessary to get his film on celluloid in the most compelling and convincing manner. Approaching a film concerning the lives, world and mindsets of 1800's frontier folk, and expecting from the mouths of the protagonists anything besides a hard-bitten, life-or-death, kill or be killed lightning bolts of utter detestation for the Other is, quite frankly, a bit overcivilized on the part of the viewer.

In struggles for survival versus an armed and willing opponent, where the cycle of bitterness and revenge soaks every waking moment through with the blood and guts of butchered loved ones, considerations of mutual humanity are always going to be one step removed from the minds of Ethan-like alpha-males. The impulse is always going to be the biggest asskicker, the biggest creater of corpses, the must unflinching in account-settling. Considerations of mutual humanity are usually a delicacy enjoyed by very few within the front lines of these sorts of land-based conflicts, and when they do take hold to cause a vengeful armed man with dead/raped loved ones to reconsider his next killing mission, to put down his weapon, it usually comes A) late in the process after many bodies have been cultivated, and B) more usually upon waking up to exhaustion with the meaningless cylcle of destruction, a sapping of the will for murder and a realization that more of his kinfolk will be saved by NOT killing (thus halting the vengeance cycle), and has less to do with a mutual humanity of his opponent being recognized. Again, this is a delicacy which over time is fostered by peace and mutual shared experience upon closure of a conflict. And even then it takes years. Don't look for vast learning of lessons in sum in primitives, when in America and the rest of the world today the lust for vengeance and hatred of the Other is cycling with impressively destructive viciousness. We attacked Iraq, why, simply because Arabs attacked the trade center? Israel & Arabs butcher innocent civilians, why? Where's the grand scale dialog of Mutual Humanity, the need to seperate the armed from the uninvolved innocents?

However, epiphanies do occur from time to time, and I believe Ford's desire was to illustrate the beauty of this moment as a distinguishing feature of the best of civilization amid it's usual savagery: the moment when a true believer is stopped in his own tracks by a realization seemingly coming from nowhere, a voice out of the blue telling him "Stop; enough," causing him to lift the girl off her feet telling her "let's go home." These are moments which get mythologized and written down in psalms & scriptures and exaggerated as the hand of god by awed cultures, "he saw god, who spoke to him."

The sense is that Ethan was a man who just stumbled dumbfounded into something to believe in (even if just for that moment, though one doubts it), coming out of a vacuum of mindless preoccuptation with revenge, pure impulse which permeated his whole being-- his defensive upbring, his war disillusionment, his hardbitten lifestyle-- that has been cultivated and sharpened to one end: opponent destruction. The beauty of the moment is that it all seems to come crashing down and seemingly for no reason whatsoever-- it's over and with absolutely no conceivable explanation whatsoever. There are times in life when grown human beings find themselves up against a wall, crushed for no apparent reason whatsoever-- men bursting into tears for no explainable reason while walking down the street doing nothing, walking out on families and never coming back, leaving jobs, countries, armies, etc.

I really believe having a problem with SEARCHERS due to applying a hypercultured progressive mindset virtually nonexistent in this time-place is folly, and to look for it there is equal folly: all it seems to do is draw attention to the 'culture' of the speaker (like Metcalf above) and shows his puny obliviousness to the beauty of moments like Ethan's in the SEARCHERS. This is not a tale about people like us, nor was it made by people like us. Yet out of it comes a message which speaks very clearly to our sensibility, which makes the profundity of the message, particularly at those seemingly inexplicable & mysteriously precious moments that they strike, as as it did Ethan-- a far less cultured, sympathetic man, a man with no education or precursor idea to set up this kind of compassion-- that much more treasured.

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Andre Jurieu
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#54 Post by Andre Jurieu » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:30 am

Ishmael wrote:So doesn't the fact that you and I have completely different opinions about Ethan's psychology prove that he is, in fact, a highly ambiguous character?
It's very possible and our divergence of opinion provides fairly good support of that notion, but I would hesitate to state conclusively that it proves that Ethan is a highly ambiguous character. It may only be evidence that Ford, Wayne, & Co. provided us with only a vague form of characterization. As well, even though a difference of opinion exists, it doesn't necessarily mean that the filmmakers intended for an ambiguity to exist. I mean, my friends and I sometimes debate which is the best hot-dog cart in the city, but I'm doubting that the cart operators intend their smokies to taste all that ambiguous and I doubt they are going for subtle differences (ok, maybe this is a poor example considering we're talking about a Ford movie, but that's just my hunger talking).
tryavna wrote:I think that Zedz and I view The Searchers as probably leaning more towards the liberal/progressive end of Ford's thinking whereas it seems you and perhaps Andre view it as more conservative at heart.
Actually, I also think the film that Ford created was intended to express more of a liberal/progressive viewpoint, though it is hindered by the archaic perspectives of the era it was created in. I'm just thinking that Ford makes his point by exploiting Ethan's conservative attitude, which I see as presented in a fairly straightforward manner. While many aspects of The Searchers are purposely subtle and ambiguous, I just don't believe Ethan is one of those components. Ford doesn't have to make every aspect of his film be indistinct in order to get his point across regarding established racist ideals becoming outdated.
tryavna wrote:I doubt that the ideological distance between our interpretations of the film is great; the nature of Ford's thinking (his continuing love of military ritual and his paternalistic attitude towards Native Americans, for example) makes it difficult to argue for too radical of an agenda behind this -- or just about any -- Ford movie.
As always, tryavna hits it out of the ball-park. I pretty much agree with all of that.

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Ashirg
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#55 Post by Ashirg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:26 pm

The Searchers is coming to HD-DVD. Wonder if it's going to be fixed - probably not.

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HerrSchreck
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#56 Post by HerrSchreck » Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:09 am

Very true-- way to fast for the kind of color correction neccessary. They probably created and and used the same hi-def master, and were already in production on the HDDVD by the time the blizzard of retching came in for the standard dvd, and the cheap bastard said, "O well, can't stop now, I mean we started didn't we?"

Too quick for a corrected trasnfer, but certainly not so quick that they couldn't have held off after the feedback from the primary release. Pure moneygrubbing.

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FilmFanSea
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#57 Post by FilmFanSea » Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:21 pm

davidhare wrote:The R4 PAL Searchers has been released early in a two disc package.

The Film disc is identical to the R1, thus no re-mastering.

If you want to see how the movie SHOULD look sit through the second documentary (narrated by the tedious John Milius) - the grabs are clearly from an IB print which was obviously available then for the producers of this 1999 doco. Deep almost ochre sand, rock solid deep sky blues, strong flesh tones.

The HD is due this week. I await the reviews.
Robert Harris posted at HTF on Sunday that Warner will not be correcting the color timing on the upcoming HD release (or correcting the SD):
On another front, apparently Warner technical services has checked their new restoration and video master of The Searchers against their studio print, and has found that the new master satisfactorily represents the original film.

While I will dispute neither their technical position nor their professionalism, my personal guess is that their sample print may be flawed, and not representative of an original approved answer print.

RAH
HTF Admin Robert Crawford has uncharacteristically slammed Warner for this decision.

Very unfortunate.

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zedz
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#58 Post by zedz » Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:36 am

davidhare wrote:Ditto the "new" Stagecoach is in many ways inferior to the old one (Im definitely keeping the latter.)
Hear hear! I watched this last week and was appalled at what bad condition the film was in: constant scratches and several dupey patches. If this is the best the film can look, that's very sad indeed. It looks like no digital clean-up was even attempted.

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thethirdman
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#59 Post by thethirdman » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:04 pm

Robert A. Harris interviews Warner's Ned Price on The Searchers

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

#60 Post by Matt » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:22 pm

thethirdman wrote:Robert A. Harris interviews Warner's Ned Price on The Searchers
This seems to be the key exchange:
RAH: Have you been reading any of the comments on line, and if so, do you take them seriously.

NP: We absolutely take them seriously. From what I've been able to deduce, people have been using the 1991 transfer as a reference, and it is in no way a reference. Believe me, I was there. We had very limited color correction capabilities.

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tryavna
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#61 Post by tryavna » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:00 pm

So does this mean that we'll never again be able to see what the hell is going on in the day-for-night scenes of The Searchers? If so, that's a real shame.

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Gigi M.
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#62 Post by Gigi M. » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:04 am

Two HD-DVD reviews:

Digitallyobsessed

DVDTown
Video:
For their HD-DVD, Warner Bros. used a restored and remastered print, which maintains most the film's original VistaVision dimensions, stretching to a 1.78:1 ratio across my widescreen television. While the standard-definition results were generally superb, the high-definition is even better, the fifty-year-old film looking as good as almost anything made today. There are still a few instances where the picture is a trifle dark, particularly during indoor shots, but mainly the image is sharp and well detailed, with no signs of age whatsoever--no lines, scratches, flecks, or fades. The Technicolor shows up brilliantly, of course, deeper and more vibrant than ever. Given the amount of wide-open expanses of land and sky involved in the shooting, there is relatively little grain in the picture, too, except that which was probably inherent to the original print; nevertheless, high definition shows up a few patches that might not have been so noticeable before. The grain varies from scene to scene, from zero to mild, and I doubt anyone would notice who wasn't specifically looking for it. This is gorgeous cinematography, excellently reproduced.

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denti alligator
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#63 Post by denti alligator » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:23 am

I'm considering getting the new edition through DDD's sale. What's the story on this? Is Warner denying there's a color problem? (I can't make sense of that interview.) Will there be a change? Is it that bad?

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tryavna
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#64 Post by tryavna » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:05 pm

denti alligator wrote:I'm considering getting the new edition through DDD's sale. What's the story on this? Is Warner denying there's a color problem? (I can't make sense of that interview.) Will there be a change? Is it that bad?
This is one of those films that, if you know extremely well, the problems are going to be noticeable and irksome to you. As I mentioned two posts up, the day-for-night has become particularly bad -- so bad that it's difficult for me to make out what's going on. (You'll be able to compare it to what it should look like on some of disc 2's extras.) However, there are plenty of extras that make the two-disc edition worth getting. I bought the whole Ford/Wayne boxset, so I found plenty of consolation in the excellent editions of Long Voyage Home and Fort Apache.

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kinjitsu
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#65 Post by kinjitsu » Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:55 pm

DVD Beaver update: Warner (Ultimate Collector's Edition) vs. Warner HD-DVD

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Cinetwist
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#66 Post by Cinetwist » Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:38 pm

I've only ever seen this film pan and scan. The UK is a bastard. TCM, video, dvd, all cropped with terrible colour.

So, I'm not sure why I've waited this long, but I'm on a Ford binge again, so..

Which edition should I buy? Which is the best other than the HDdvd?

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Darth Lavender
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#67 Post by Darth Lavender » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:59 am

Cinetwist wrote:Which edition should I buy? Which is the best other than the HDdvd?
Bluray? (Just kidding, of course;-))

Seriously, though, if ever there was a single movie that justified moving to HD, this would probably be it (at least for a Ford fan) I bought the standard DVD (taken from the same master) for my Father, then later bought the HD for myself it's one of the biggest improvements in quality I've ever seen (unless you count movies like "Black Rain" were I went from the 10 year old 4:3 DVD to the special-edition HDDVD)

The thing about the colors, succinctly, is that nobody actually knows what it's *supposed* to look like (all that remains are the black & white seperation prints) If you have strong views on how it should look, then the Warner special-edition will be very frustrating viewing.
But, even though I don't know who's right, Warner does seem to have done their homework and used a choice of colors that's just as valid as any of the other well-researched opinions you'll hear.

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Cinetwist
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#68 Post by Cinetwist » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:55 am

David, can I still getta hold of the '98 dvd?

If I'm gonna watch the thing for the fourth time (and essentially the first time) I want it to be as accurate as possible. But I'm not going HD yet.

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Darth Lavender
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#69 Post by Darth Lavender » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:09 am

davidhare wrote:People who are old enough to remember VistaVision Technicolor IB screenings DO remember how it looked
My mistake; forgot there were people that old :D

But, while we're on the subject; how accurate are the colors on the costumes in Troy? Or Jurassic Park?

:wink: Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Ivy Mike
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#70 Post by Ivy Mike » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:39 pm

Don't want to try and drag out the discussion of The Searchers even more, but since it got brought up in the DVDBeaver capture thread (and will likely always resurface in many a discussion), I'll go ahead and ask.

Was The Searchers printed by the IB process at initial release or did that come later? I'm curious as to whether or not there is a definitive look for the film (I'm sure Ford/Hoch had one, but I mean in terms of what elements we're looking back to), as wouldn't a different printing process have given us another look entirely (given how distinct IB can look)?

I'm not doubting that the IB prints davidhare and others have seen look different than the current color timing, and also don't doubt that they look spectacular. However, what is it that makes the IB coloring THE way the film is supposed to look? Could those IB prints be vastly different from what the answer print, OCN, etc. looked like, let alone if it was printed by another process as well at release? I assume there wasn't much color correction ability back then, so the OCN probably possessed all the information that would be printed...no digital tools to change colors obviously. And I understand the possibility of deterioration over time, so it might be a difficult thing to determine which is correct out of the elements, but perhaps that's the whole debate...

I'm not completely familiar with the tech end of things, i.e. the printing processes, etc., so forgive me for any ignorance in the rambling above. Also, I am NOT defending the current look of The Searchers - it's the only way I've seen it so sadly I have no point of reference and freely acknowledge my non-expertise. However, I definitely notice what seems to me like a yellow push on skin tones for example, so it wouldn't surprise me if it did look different originally. I'm just curious about the whole situation and wanted to inquire about the IB arguments.

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Svevan
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Re: The Searchers

#71 Post by Svevan » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:54 pm

I recently saw The Searchers for the first time, and was interested in Ebert's take on the film's subplots:
Roger Ebert wrote:The Searchers indeed seems to be two films. The Ethan Edwards story is stark and lonely, a portrait of obsession...[t]he film within this film involves the silly romantic subplot and characters hauled in for comic relief, including the Swedish neighbor Lars Jorgensen (John Qualen), who uses a vaudeville accent, and Mose Harper (Hank Worden), a half-wit treated like a mascot. There are even musical interludes. This second strand is without interest, and those who value The Searchers filter it out, patiently waiting for a return to the main story line.
This was opposite to my initial response, as I found the Charlie/Laurie marriage scene, the gentleman's brawl between Martin and Charlie, and the idiot characters (including Look), to be very pertinent to the "main story line," creating a depth to the communal world that Ethan was forever isolated from. This wouldn't be Ebert's first critical mistake, but I found Scott Eyman's attitude in his book "John Ford: The Complete Films" very similar.
Scott Eyman wrote:The Searchers is a great film, but it is not without flaws; there is the strange, off-putting sequence of Look, Martin's Indian bride, an object of ridicule from the beginning, mostly because she's fat and sexually unattractive. Ford's treatment of Look feels brutal and unfunny, especially if, as is almost certainly the case, he thought of the sequence as comic relief. It's entirely possible that Ford felt he was working too close to the bone with The Searchers, that he felt there might be too much about racism, too much about miscegenation. The tension may have needed an outlet, but the comic interludes Ford devised – Look, Ken Curtis' Charlie McCorry – are too coarse by half.
What's surprising here is that Eyman himself isn't 100% sure that Look was intended as comic relief - certainly her later death causes at least confusion, if not some remorse in Martin.

I find it odd that both writers dismiss the Charlie McCorry subplot, which was one of my favorite parts of the film. Martin's decision to continue searching for Debbie with Ethan is given weight by the fact that he has a family to return to, just as Ethan did (even though he dallied for three years after the Civil War). Ethan's family is tainted by the fact that he's in love with his sister-in-law, and Martin's has the extra tinge of Laurie's matter-of-fact racism and her desire for him to stay, even though Ethan will surely kill Debbie. Furthermore, the scenes of marriage, the brawl, Martin's letter to Laurie, etc all provide the counterpoint between the isolation of their nihilistic quest and the warmth/comedy of the home they've been ignoring. When they come home and find Laurie about to wed, they immediately interfere with the proceedings; the communal world is thrown off-balance by those who have chosen to abandon it, even temporarily.

Further, the farcical comedy during the brawl is completely in character for Ford; Jonathan Rosenbaum's DVDBeaver article mentions how Joseph McBride "observ[es] that Ford likes to follow tragedy with farce in the same pictures..." in reference to Pilgrimage. Perhaps this was a conscious political decision by Ford, like Eyman suggests, to lighten the mood in an otherwise dark film. The end result, however, is that tragedy and farce never exist in the same scene (Laurie's aforementioned easy racism comes close as it is a transition between Martin's jokey fight and his continuing quest). Look is a joke and a bother in one scene, but dead in the next. Ethan reaffirms his intent to kill Debbie and makes Martin his heir in one scene, and the marriage scene immediately follows. The brawl itself is a contrast between Charlie McCorry's buttoned up tuxedo (with perfect white shirt and gloves) and Martin's dusty and unkempt attire, even though both follow a ridiculous code of manners. Even the climactic scene where Ethan lifts Debbie into the air rather than killing her is followed by Ward Bond bending over with his ass hanging out - was there ever a greater contrast between two scenes?

I think Ebert expects a film to be entirely and wholly about one thing, and the social conscience struggling to shine through in The Searchers matches up with many of his yearly top 10 picks in recent years; Eyman ends his discussion of The Searchers by reinforcing that Ethan Edwards, The Searchers, and John Ford himself are all studies in contradictions. Why are they unable to accept that this contradiction exists in the weird mix of comedy and tragedy that is very much a part of Ford's ouevre? I'm thinking of She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, which stops in its tracks to tell the story of Wayne's retirement both sentimentally and comically, before returning to the looming war that was the whole point of the flick anyways; or The Long Voyage Home, which alternates between a tragic story of loss and loneliness and the ridiculous bumbling of Thomas Mitchell and his crew. Fort Apache also has a, if you want, "hokey" romance that hinges on the outcome of the main story. I even think My Darling Clementine plays a bit part in this, as Fonda is forced to interact with the town community when he didn't originally intend to. I'm sure there are other better examples outside of my viewing experience as well.

Haggai
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Re: The Searchers

#72 Post by Haggai » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:54 pm

Svevan wrote:I find it odd that both writers dismiss the Charlie McCorry subplot, which was one of my favorite parts of the film. Martin's decision to continue searching for Debbie with Ethan is given weight by the fact that he has a family to return to, just as Ethan did (even though he dallied for three years after the Civil War). Ethan's family is tainted by the fact that he's in love with his sister-in-law, and Martin's has the extra tinge of Laurie's matter-of-fact racism and her desire for him to stay, even though Ethan will surely kill Debbie. Furthermore, the scenes of marriage, the brawl, Martin's letter to Laurie, etc all provide the counterpoint between the isolation of their nihilistic quest and the warmth/comedy of the home they've been ignoring. When they come home and find Laurie about to wed, they immediately interfere with the proceedings; the communal world is thrown off-balance by those who have chosen to abandon it, even temporarily.
I also like the Charlie subplot. In particular, the little bit where he sings to her, from Skip to My Lou, is really moving. Just that one short interlude rounds his character out so convincingly--even though he's a largely a clownish figure, his feelings for her are completely real and heartfelt.

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Re: The Searchers

#73 Post by Vic Pardo » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:07 pm

Haggai wrote:
Svevan wrote:I find it odd that both writers dismiss the Charlie McCorry subplot, which was one of my favorite parts of the film. Martin's decision to continue searching for Debbie with Ethan is given weight by the fact that he has a family to return to, just as Ethan did (even though he dallied for three years after the Civil War). Ethan's family is tainted by the fact that he's in love with his sister-in-law, and Martin's has the extra tinge of Laurie's matter-of-fact racism and her desire for him to stay, even though Ethan will surely kill Debbie. Furthermore, the scenes of marriage, the brawl, Martin's letter to Laurie, etc all provide the counterpoint between the isolation of their nihilistic quest and the warmth/comedy of the home they've been ignoring. When they come home and find Laurie about to wed, they immediately interfere with the proceedings; the communal world is thrown off-balance by those who have chosen to abandon it, even temporarily.
I also like the Charlie subplot. In particular, the little bit where he sings to her, from Skip to My Lou, is really moving. Just that one short interlude rounds his character out so convincingly--even though he's a largely a clownish figure, his feelings for her are completely real and heartfelt.
In the book, Charlie marries Laurie, leaving Martin to end up with...well YOU figure it out (or simply read the book). But it was quite a surprise to me.

Haggai
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Re: The Searchers

#74 Post by Haggai » Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:33 pm

Vic Pardo wrote:In the book, Charlie marries Laurie, leaving Martin to end up with...well YOU figure it out (or simply read the book). But it was quite a surprise to me.
Sounds like an interesting difference; I've never read the book. The only immediate possibility that comes to mind is Martin marrying (well, I guess I'll spoilerize it to be on the safe side)...
SpoilerShow
...Debbie?

They're not related by blood, unless one believes the various theories about Martin being Ethan's son (theories about Debbie being Ethan's daughter abound as well, though Debbie and Martin would already be first cousins if Martin was Ethan's son). Though I assume those theories are entirely in reference to the film, without the book in mind at all.

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hearthesilence
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Re: The Searchers

#75 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:10 am

Does anyone have this on Blu-Ray? I saw a 35mm print at MoMI last night and when I came home I popped in the Blu-Ray disc to check out a few things. During the first shots by the door (from Martha's viewpoint) I noticed a light spot near the center of the screen, just a bit to the right.

It doesn't move but it's very noticeable when the blue sky passes underneath it. It's difficult, even impossible to see when darker colors are underneath, but it's there shot after shot after shot.

For a minute, I thought my TV had a burn-in spot, but I popped in some other discs and the spot is not there, it's just The Searchers. Anyone else have it, and if so, what would cause this?

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