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I imagine at least in the case of Celine and Julie it's a case where Criterion have never had the opportunity considering that New Yorker have held the rights to that film for decades. I wouldn't be surprised if Criterion was looking very closely at the Rivette's they placed at Hulu to see where they stand.

If we assume that North American demand for Rivette is about what it is for Naruse (which sounds right to me) it's worth noting that, though there's no blu yet, CC have devoted to Naruse a mainline title with commentary, an Eclipse box (of silents, no less), and have put those films and about a dozen others on Hulu. Rivette still stands at, I think, one feature and one short on Hulu, and no main line or eclipse discs of any kind.

knives wrote:I imagine at least in the case of Celine and Julie it's a case where Criterion have never had the opportunity considering that New Yorker have held the rights to that film for decades.

Ah, I thought I remembered it being up for grabs at some time in the recent past, but you're probably right, as NY put out the VHS of it.
As to the Rivette vs. Naruse comparison: I recall a time prior to the MoC and BFI sets when Naruse was just a huge void in the knowledge of even many highly dedicated cinephiles, who perhaps knew of him but had not been able to see any of his work, or at most, typically, had been able to catch one or two special screenings. The same has not been true of Rivette's work.

I'm with Gregory. Rivette's French, has always been well known as a key member of the Nouvelle Vague, has worked with plenty of high-profile art house actors (Leaud, Ogier, Karina, Piccoli, Bonnaire, Birkin etc.), and has enjoyed substantial critical (Celine et Julie) and commercial (La Belle Noiseuse) hits in English-speaking territories. Has Naruse even had a single one of his films commercially released in the UK or US?

zedz wrote: Has Naruse even had a single one of his films commercially released in the UK or US?

Yes, Kimiko rather famously bombed as the first Japanese sound film released in America.

Naruse's "Wife, Be Like a Rose!" (renamed "Kimiko" for US consumption) did not totally "bomb" -- but it did get patronized as a quaint Oriental curiosity -- and it did not set off a race to acquire more Japanese films for US distribution (even if it had, politics would have put an end to this quite soon).

I am pretty sure that at least Mother, Women Ascending the Stairs and Late Chrysanthemums got US distribution in pre-DVD days.

Michael Kerpan wrote:Naruse's "Wife, Be Like a Rose!" (renamed "Kimiko" for US consumption) did not totally "bomb" -- but it did get patronized as a quaint Oriental curiosity -- and it did not set off a race to acquire more Japanese films for US distribution (even if it had, politics would have put an end to this quite soon).

Sorry about that. I had remembered the patronizing and thought it had caused the film to be unsuccessful.

I wouldn't say the film was a "success", mind you -- because PCL was _hoping_ to get the kind of response that no Japanese films would achieve until Rashomon. I just don't know if it was a "bomb". ;-}

Shochiku had been similarly disappointed just a few years earlier with Shimazu's Ai yo jinrui to tomo ni are -- which starred one-time Hollywood star (in villain roles) Sojin. (It did not dawn on Shochiku that America was not exactly interested in a big budget silent film from Japan in 1931 -- or that Sojin had long ago passed his American heyday, which had been around 1924).

For those interested there is an article I came across a while ago when I was exploring Naruse a bit further that talks about the Kimiko premiere (among other examinations of Naruse and Ford) and tries to offer some reasoning behind it's failure. Not the greatest I have ever read, but the only one I recall off hand talking about this specific event:
http://www.rouge.com.au/10/kimiko.html

vsski wrote:For those interested there is an article I came across a while ago when I was exploring Naruse a bit further that talks about the Kimiko premiere (among other examinations of Naruse and Ford) and tries to offer some reasoning behind it's failure. Not the greatest I have ever read, but the only one I recall off hand talking about this specific event:
http://www.rouge.com.au/10/kimiko.html

A very interesting article (which I read ages ago). I think this may have screened in places other than New York, bu I can't find anything to back me up (at least not at the moment).

This has certainly become an interestingly wayward conversation!

To satisfy my curiosity, I checked on IMDB (so take all of this with a pig of salt) which Rivette films were released in the US and UK. It looks like eleven of his features have enjoyed a commercial release in the US (Paris nous appartient, La Religieuse, Celine et Julie, L'Amour par terre, Hurlevent (no release dated noted for this, but there is a decent US box office gross recorded), Bande des quatre, La Belle Noiseuse, Divertimento, Va Savoir, Ne touchez pas la hache, 36 vues du Pic Saint-Loup), plus another five got festival screenings.

In the UK, it seems like only seven commercial releases (but IMDB's info for the UK seems generally a lot patchier - hardly any record of festival screenings, for instance). They got Secret defense and Marie et Julien, but not La Religieuse, L'Amour par terre, Hurlevent, Bande des quatre, Divertimento or 36 vues.

When I get my laptop back, I'll check the Sight & Sound Digital Archive, which should have a definitive record of what opened commercially in the UK. Seven sounds too few to me.

A search of the BBFC database lists the following as having been given cinema certificates, with the proviso there may be further older entries with the director listing missing:

Paris nous appartient (certified A in 1962)
La religieuse (X in 1967)
Céline and Julie Go Boating (AA in 1976)
La belle noiseuse (15 in 1992)
La belle noiseuse (Divertimento) (PG in 1992)
Jeanne la Pucelle (PG in 1995, in two parts, shorter version of each)
Secret Defense (PG in 1998)
Va Savoir (PG in 2001)
The Story of Marie and Julien (15 in 2004)
Son't Touch the Axe (PG in 2007)

In addition, The Gang of Four Wuthering Heights, Love on the Ground and Lumière and Company had DVD releases.

The BBFC database wouldn't be reliable for someone like Rivette, as it's entirely feasible that his films would have been given ultra-limited releases in cinemas with sympathetic local authorities, thus allowing the distributor to bypass BBFC fees. This was relatively common practice in the 70s and 80s, especially when the BFI had its own Regional Film Theatre circuit.

For instance, I know for certain that Le Pont du nord played theatrically in London outside festival screenings.

zedz wrote: In the UK, it seems like only seven commercial releases (but IMDB's info for the UK seems generally a lot patchier - hardly any record of festival screenings, for instance). They got Secret defense and Marie et Julien, but not La Religieuse, L'Amour par terre, Hurlevent, Bande des quatre, Divertimento or 36 vues.

36 vues du Pic Saint Loup is due in UK cinemas this year from New Wave, so we can add that to the list.

MichaelB wrote:For instance, I know for certain that Le Pont du nord played theatrically in London outside festival screenings.

I wish this were also the case for the US!

Michael Kerpan wrote:

MichaelB wrote:For instance, I know for certain that Le Pont du nord played theatrically in London outside festival screenings.

I wish this were also the case for the US!

It's starting a full week run in Brooklyn this weekend.

I wonder who is distributing Pont du Nord -- or is this just some special deal made witht the folks in Brooklyn?

It's The Film Desk actually, the good people who also recently distributed prints (not DCPs) of We Won't Grow Old Together, The Devil, Probably, and a brace of great Rohmers.

Michael Kerpan wrote:

MichaelB wrote:For instance, I know for certain that Le Pont du nord played theatrically in London outside festival screenings.

I wish this were also the case for the US!

One of the two times I saw Le Pont du nord was in New York (but it was in repertory and had no subs!) Still, it's great to see it's getting some belated attention.

GaryC's list (and Michael's potential additions) sounds a lot more reasonable than what I found on IMDB, since I was always under the impression that Rivette never suffered that much of a visibility problem in the UK.

FerdinandGriffon wrote:It's The Film Desk actually

I checked their site -- the only scheduled showings are the ones in Brooklyn. I also noticed that the screen shots on the PdN page look a lot more faded than I recall from the French video (from ages ago).

It starts at BAM in NYC, then should move out around the country. You should check the pages for some of their other films to get a sense of whether they have good relationships with venues near you. I'm also fairly sure that those stills are production stills obtained from the French distributor, and shouldn't be considered at all representative of Film Desk's new 35mm print. But I'm planning on seeing it sometime this week, maybe twice, so I'll let you know.

FerdinandGriffon -- it doesn't look like much of Film Desk's stuff comes to Boston. Too bad, PdN is on my (purely honorary) Top 5 film list.

zedz wrote:GaryC's list (and Michael's potential additions) sounds a lot more reasonable than what I found on IMDB, since I was always under the impression that Rivette never suffered that much of a visibility problem in the UK.

Plus if anyone is interested, the first night that Channel 4 television moved to 24 hours broadcasting back in 1997, they showed the full length version of La belle noiseuse. I can't think of any other Rivette films having been shown on UK television yet though.

Celine had definitely been on Film Four back in the subscription days and, believe it or not, Jeanne la Pucelle was once shown on Sky Movies back in the 1990s. I think Histoire de Marie at Julien has had a satellite showing, too. But there probably hasn't been much Rivette on the core UK TV channels.