I don't understand how this is homophobic- am I missing something in the translation? I've only read that Renoir attacked the film as fascist (a ridiculous opinion that he soon backed away from).jdcopp wrote:During the premiere of "Quai des brumes", Renoir was heard to say out loud "This isn't the 'Quai des brumes', this is the 'cul des bremes' ['the whore's ass']".
Marcel Carné
- GringoTex
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am
Re: Marcel Carné
- GringoTex
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 am
Re: Marcel Carné
Again, from everything I've read, these references to "decadent" and "treacherous" were in relation to the film's perceived fascism. I've never read anything about a homophobic attack and I don't think you can necessarily lump Renoir in with the pervasive anti-gay sentiment of the time.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Marcel Carné
I've never read a translation of the article, but I'll never understand how there are "fascist" elements/characters (I think Ren's complaints were that there are 'fascist characters') in Quai de Brumes. Can anyone explain what in fluck's sake what he was even talking about?
Who's supposed to be fascist? Brasseur's wannabe gangster, his chick and his mugs? Michel Simon's lecherous father? Michelle Morgan or Gabin? The sad crew in Panama's shack? If ever there was an attack on a film which completely baffled me, it's the famous allegation that Brumes is a fascist film.
Utterly bizarre.
Who's supposed to be fascist? Brasseur's wannabe gangster, his chick and his mugs? Michel Simon's lecherous father? Michelle Morgan or Gabin? The sad crew in Panama's shack? If ever there was an attack on a film which completely baffled me, it's the famous allegation that Brumes is a fascist film.
Utterly bizarre.
- Zazou dans le Metro
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:01 am
- Location: In the middle of an Elyssian Field
Re: Marcel Carné
In Turk's book where the incident above is reported he notes that Prevert allegedly got Renoir to apologise and Renoir stated he meant to say that there were certain characters that deserved a fascist beating. Carne (and I suspect most of us) failed to see any real distinction. In the same volume there are instances of Renoir's distaste for Carne but there is no evidence of out and out homophobic slurs. Neither is it clear whether Renoir was referring to the notorious Nazi spokesman Le Vigan who plays the suicide artist.HerrSchreck wrote:I've never read a translation of the article, but I'll never understand how there are "fascist" elements/characters (I think Ren's complaints were that there are 'fascist characters') in Quai de Brumes. Can anyone explain what in fluck's sake what he was even talking about?
- Knappen
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:14 am
- Location: Oslo/Paris
Re: Marcel Carné
Not very likely as Renoir had used Le Vigan hinself in Madame Bovary and Les Bas-Fonds.Neither is it clear whether Renoir was referring to the notorious Nazi spokesman Le Vigan who plays the suicide artist.
- Zazou dans le Metro
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:01 am
- Location: In the middle of an Elyssian Field
Re: Marcel Carné
Which is fair comment except for the fact that those films were 2 years and 5 years earlier and assumes that Le Vigan's fascist tendencies were openly displayed at that time or as vehement. It also assumes a certain degree of consistency on Renoir's part. You need look no further than Jeanson's article 'The Two Renoirs' to see another side of that warm avuncular face that beams out from his appearances on various supplements. Although Jeanson himself was a notoriously caustic character who courted confrontation and controversy it is a healthy antidote to the committed filmmaker/ cuddly Teddy persona.Knappen wrote:Not very likely as Renoir had used Le Vigan hinself in Madame Bovary and Les Bas-Fonds.Neither is it clear whether Renoir was referring to the notorious Nazi spokesman Le Vigan who plays the suicide artist.
There is also Michel Simon's rancour towards Renoir who he blamed for his own indictment for collaboration due to Renoir's own actions.
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- Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:34 pm
- Location: Boston Ma
- Contact:
Re: Marcel Carné
One does not need to look further than Jeanson's article. Sorry, but I have already gone and looked further.You need look no further than Jeanson's article 'The Two Renoirs'
http://jdcopp.blogspot.com/2008/01/reno ... -late.html
- Zazou dans le Metro
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:01 am
- Location: In the middle of an Elyssian Field
Re: Marcel Carné
I would applaud your blog -scholarship more if it referred to the article cited. Said article was written BEFORE the war contemporaneously with the attack on Le Quai des Brumes which has spurred this thread's particular tangent.jdcopp wrote:One does not need to look further than Jeanson's article. Sorry, but I have already gone and looked further.You need look no further than Jeanson's article 'The Two Renoirs'
http://jdcopp.blogspot.com/2008/01/reno ... -late.html
In 'La Fleche de Paris 12 August 1938' Jeanson (who as I mentioned is far from being safe from reproach himself)
wrote -
We possess two Renoirs
A true Renoir.
And a false Renoir.
.......
The true Renoir is delighted by the success of his friends,the younger filmmakers,
The false Renoir can't tolerate competition,and he suffers as much from the triumphs of his colleagues as from the failure of his own productions.
.....Quai des Brumes he has proclaimed is a film of fascist propoganda because the foreigners who see it will think that a country which produces the kind of characters played by Gabin or Brasseur is a country ripe for dictatorship.
So there!
Its reasoning is worth its weight in rubles.
.....
He ends with..
I also hope that the false Renoir reads this article through the eyes of the true Renoir and that he finds here all the lost illusions of someone who was once his friend.
I of course have cherry picked the lines pertinent to the concerns of this thread which in brief was What the fuck was Renoir on when he saw fascist characters in QdB?
Jeanson was a tricksy mercurial figure and I have no doubt as your blog notes was not beyond scabrous character assassination. But the article above is worth reading in full to see another side of a working colleague's appraisal of Renoir that is a sad disillusionment rather than cant and mere spite.
- Zazou dans le Metro
- Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:01 am
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Re: Marcel Carné
Well one might wonder why Carne as late as 1945 when Le Vigan's pro-Nazi activities were well documented tried to get him for Les Enfants?
Also that Duvivier offered himself as a character witness during his trial. To suggest as he did that Le Vigan was 'led astray' by Celine seems somewhat ingenuous but I don't know really enough about their relationship or the extent of Le Vigan's pro-Nazi proselytizing to totally dismiss the idea.
He does cut a tragic figure however- sentenced to 10 years hard labour and ending up in poverty and insane in South America.
Could have been a Herzog/Kinski vehicle.
Also that Duvivier offered himself as a character witness during his trial. To suggest as he did that Le Vigan was 'led astray' by Celine seems somewhat ingenuous but I don't know really enough about their relationship or the extent of Le Vigan's pro-Nazi proselytizing to totally dismiss the idea.
He does cut a tragic figure however- sentenced to 10 years hard labour and ending up in poverty and insane in South America.
Could have been a Herzog/Kinski vehicle.
- Knappen
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:14 am
- Location: Oslo/Paris
Re: Marcel Carné
Two weeks to go for the Visiteurs du soir DVD from M6Vidéo!
EDIT: I have heard rumours about a delay... And please note that there will be no subs on this.
EDIT: I have heard rumours about a delay... And please note that there will be no subs on this.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: Marcel Carné
How many Vigil Candles are burning in your flat until the day arrives?
- tojoed
- Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:47 am
- Location: Cambridge, England
Re: Marcel Carné
Drole de Drame gets a UK DVD release in October.
I don't know anything about the company, Contemporary Films.
I don't know anything about the company, Contemporary Films.
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- Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:31 am
- Location: Somerset, England
Re: Marcel Carné
Maybe the same Contemporary Films I used to rent 16mm "foreign" films from in the 1970s?
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: Marcel Carné
Maybe we should fix the title of this thread. Good news on Drole though.
- NABOB OF NOWHERE
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm
- Location: Brandywine River
Re: Marcel Carné
Not trying to steal your thunder - but it is already available with english subs from Editions Montparnasse and may well be easier to pick up cheaper somewhere.tojoed wrote:Drole de Drame gets a UK DVD release in October.
I don't know anything about the company, Contemporary Films.
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- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Re: Marcel Marcel Carné
A French-language Carné site:
https://www.marcel-carne.com/
Includes transcripts in French of Carné´s interviews with Brian Stonehill (for Criterion) and Edward Baron Turk.
https://www.marcel-carne.com/
Includes transcripts in French of Carné´s interviews with Brian Stonehill (for Criterion) and Edward Baron Turk.